Crackpot Therory: Under the Water.

[Lykos]

Well that fits quite well with the ironborn, raiders of treasures, that one of their first kings killed Nagga and build his hall with its bones. I think however that Nagga will not play a very important role in the story, I see it more as an ornament.

I think the important "sea" - snake will be inspired by the midgardsnake.

[Arkash]

Well, since the Greyjoy are really inspired by Viking mythology, I wouldnt be surprised at all that yes, some nordic creatures appear in the future !

[Lykos]

They already have. Thor´s hammer echoed by Robert´s warhammer. The Fenriswolf - Direwolf. Thor´s hand was bitten off by the Fenriswolf - Jaime´s hand is taken by a "Goat". And the Norse Sagas also are connected to the celtic myths that inspired a lot of things in the North.

[Arkash]

Yeah, just like Tolkien and quite all the fantasy authors, GRRM loves Nordic Mythology, I guess !

[Arkash]

Taking my old topic from dark abysses, but I've just read this interview by GRRM (http://www.westeros....w_in_Barcelona/) and was very excited by the part about the Kraken ! What do you think ?

[Iron-born]

Varys mentioned a kraken sighting in aSOS: "A kraken has been seen off the Fingers. Not a Greyjoy, mind you, a true kraken." Considering that all the other news Varys brought in that same paragraph were true, I wouldn't rule a kraken out just yet

[FittleLinger]

The official story is that Nagga was a "sea dragon" who was killed by the Grey King. Her bones became the architectural foundation of the king's hall, he sat on her jawbone and wore her teeth as a crown. When the king died, a storm god flooded the hall and only a portion of her bones remain. It's in Aeron's Feast for Crows POV, the backstory.

The truth is probably somewhere in between. In any case, I don't think it's "just" a whale.

Oh I definitely agree that the "drownings" are nothing more than hallucinations brought on by oxygen deprivation. But I think that this "modern" interpretation of the Drowned God religion could hearken back to something else. Like the priests trying to "replicate" something that had happened in the past. Another example of this is the pretty awesome idea that the Boltons' flaying is their way of trying to "become" skinchangers. Both of them are realistic interpretations/approximations of things that have supernatural origins.

I had a crackpot that Naga's bones were actually a weirwood grove.

Crazy much, or not so crazy?

[Arkash]

Varys mentioned a kraken sighting in aSOS: "A kraken has been seen off the Fingers. Not a Greyjoy, mind you, a true kraken." Considering that all the other news Varys brought in that same paragraph were true, I wouldn't rule a kraken out just yet

But will we see one first hand ?

My theory is that maybe Aeron Greyjoy will summon one to fight Euron, which can be pretty cool is handled correctly and not ridiculously.

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

Never thought of this before, but the "dead things on the water" did really catch my eye. I never thought much about it after reading, but if there were some substance behind it that would be really cool

[Arkash]

I hope so too ! Imagining GRRM writing a scene at hardome with creepy Others coming out of the water on frozen beaches is thrilling !

[JJtheCrow]

Perhaps the dead things in the water are wights. I read a book called World War Z. In that book the undead walk the bottom of the sea. They obviously can't swim, nor can they drown. What's dead may never die. I keep having visions of thousands of wights walking out of the sea.

[Arkash]

Yes, it seems obvious they are wights and I have the same vision as you... but what if there's something more ? ^^

[DornishKnight]

As Wights rise from the seas and swarm the land, only then shall they know their doom.

All Hail Euron! Lord of Darkness and ally to the Great Other!

What is dead may never die!

[Peras]

Perhaps the dead things in the water are wights. I read a book called World War Z. In that book the undead walk the bottom of the sea. They obviously can't swim, nor can they drown. What's dead may never die. I keep having visions of thousands of wights walking out of the sea.

Is there any explanation for undead walking on the bottom of the ocean? To me it seems a little strange that they would be able not to float.

[Osefiwin]

Ok I’m just here to refine the merling theory (which you can find there: http://asoiaf.wester...pot-the-merling ). It doesn’t get enough attention in my mind, mainly because it was posted by a semi-troll and had a really goofy conspiracy theory encased in it (fire + ice = water, please…), but some of it made sense and got shut down with no particular proof by everyone „It sounds far-fatched“, „I’d like to believe it but I don’t“, „cool story bro!“ and so on.

A lot of points were never countered, and now that life underwater starts to make sense to more people, it should be linked to again.

We can start with the idea that merlings exist in Westeros, either as an imaginary entity or as real creatures. Everyone can agree on that. Now can we proove that they do exist? First theory noted all the merling occurrences in the books, Merling King, the spears, the Manderly…

It failed to connect two other facts, however:

• If there is something going on under the sea, surely the Drowned God must be somehow connected. I’m not sure how… as a ruler ? As a deity ? Needs to be determined. Which is why I link it to what is discussed in this thread. Btw, I'm sorry if there were more recent threads speaking about underwater stuff. I just took the first I stumbled upon through google.
  
• Someone actually went under the water, even though he didn’t come back with too much of himself: that would be Patchface.
  

Patchface seems to have had a traumatic experience under the sea, and is kind of specific about what he encountered:

„Under the sea the mermen feast on starfish soup, and all the serving men are crabs.“ (most quotes below, and this one included, are from awoiaf)

“Here we eat fish, under the sea, the fish eat us.”

Again, this is no clear evidence: Patchface could just be a mad fool, like everyone thinks. There are two reasons to doubt it.

• A reason coming from logic, not from the book : if we assume that GRRM knows what he’s doing, he has no reason to place so many hints at life under the sea and then make it all meaningless.
  
• More convincing, because coming from the books : what Melisandre said about Patchface : « That creature is dangerous. Many a time I have glimped him in my flames. Sometimes there are skulls about him, and his lips are red with blood » Doesn’t sound like something you would see in flames about a simple madman, now, does it?
  

If we agree that these hints are worth investigation, let’s go ahead and investigate.

What do we know about merlings? Not much. We know, first of all, that none of the characters Nightflyer thought were merlings are actual merlings. People know what merlings look like as they’ve been spotted in Lannisport. If the banner of the Manderly looked like Manderly, I’m sure someone would have made a witty comment about it in the books by now… It’s more likely that if we’re right and they‘re connected, they’re those „serving men“ that Patchface is refering to. In other words, Varys would be some sort of sealing (the Borrells seam real good candidates for the "crabs" themselves)

We know that sealings apparently eat humans, as said by Patchface’s quote and hinted by Melisandre’s Patchface vision.

Biter would fit the description. Again, he could be human. Someone could theorically decide to randomly file their teeth in an aggressive fashion, and also happen to like to eat fingers and not be capable of speach. Why not? But is that really easier to believe than him being another type of creature? Not for me. Rorge found him when he was a child, presumably in or near King’s Landing, which has access to the sea.

Nightflyer connected all his merlings candidate through physical appearance. He kind of has a point, even though it's not as clear as day as he makes it out to be:

Varys „he is plump, completely bald and effeminate.»

Biter „is described as enormous and bald, with soft, doughy flesh. »

Illyrio and Manderly aren't such good fits: „Illyrio is tall and morbidly obese, with an oiled forked yellow beard and crooked yellow teeth. » While the „something wrong with teeth“ connection appears in the case of Illyrio, both he and the Manderly do have pilosity, which kind of sucks.

Nightflyer missed it but Patchface also has the features. Don’t let the tattoos fool you.

Patchface : „Patchface takes his name for the tattoos covering his broad face and bald head, marked in a pattern of green and red squares. […] He is described as soft and obese ». He showed up on the shore, remember? Maybe he escaped before the transformation was complete, maybe something went wrong in his transformation and they just left him there. Maybe he’s perfectly sane and playing Stannis’ court for fools…

I would also keep the hints about Varys: The conversation with Tyrion about how there would be a surprising result if he was thrown into the water. Arya’s description of the meeting between Varys and Illyrio, and the notion of eating small childrens that ensued. Varys‘ quarters in King’s Landing that don’t fit his persona. The licking of the lips. Could also add that to the extent of my knowledge (feel free to correct if I’m talking out of my ass) sea creatures often rely on a very sensitive hearing: that would explain how Varys always knows everything important, even though we never see his ‚birds‘ in action.

I agree with the idea that Varys’ story of how he lost his manhood seems genuine. I also agree with the counter that it could be the story of how he became a „crab“ rather than how he became a „eunuch“.

All of this seems worthy of discussion to me. The rest of the original thread, about this whole conspiracy stuff, is conjecture with little evidence from the books themselves and should therefore be dropped.

[Theda Baratheon]

MERMAIDS.

[paytheironicprice]

What happened to Patchface is one of the underrated mysteries of the series.

I absolutely agree with this. Patchface is one of my favorite characters. I honestly hope they don't try to portray him in the show, because his songs would be way less effective (to me, at least) if we heard them out loud. I can't wait to see what the real story with Patchface is.

[Moon-Pale Maiden]

I remember when ADWD came out and some people thought for maybe 30 seconds that "dead things in the water" might refer to kraken wights.

... There were no survivors, because their heads exploded from the sheer awesomeness. No one else dared contemplate the idea, in sheer self-defense. :(

kraken wights FTW!!! I'd love to see an other come out of the sea riding a dead and half-decayed kraken.

edit: on a serious note, let's not forget the "squishers". They could be local legends that explain "dead things in the water" that rise up.

[Waylin Stark]

Hardly a crackpot theory, it's pretty obvious there's something fishy going on under the water (geddit?). With all the stuff going on in the Ice (Others, wights, warging), and in the Fire (Rhllor, dragons), many people are missing out what's happening under the water. Though it is possible that whatever it is, it's linked to the Others, in which case Westeros is simply doomed.

[setmyheartafire]

Valyria always made me think of the Atlantis myths, so R'lyeh would be a sunken part of Valyria as in those myth where Atlantis sinks but is not destroyed.

This is to crackpot for me. Has anyone any notion of vulcanic activity except for hot springs in winterfell, dragonglass, and sulforic water at the edge of the Dothraki sea?

I am highly suspicious of the Doom, dragons, and volcanoes being connected in some way... Never caught the sulfur water before, thank you for that!

What about Hardhome? Whatever happened there appeared "like a sun in the north" for a long time, charred the place, and spewed ashes onto the Shivering sea.

Sounds like a volcano to me.

As far as dead things in the water I always assumed wights could just be in the water because they are dead and don't need oxygen (Pirates Curse of the Black Pearl when the undead pirates "take a walk" does indeed come to mind).

But I would love a water element in the story. So far it's fire, ice, earth. Arguably, ice=water...

A note on the Damphair, I always got a kick out of the resuscitation as religious rebirth. I don't buy a connection between wights and this practice. I think it's hilarious and can totally see some old pirate reviving a "drowned" compatriot, being astonished he lived, and the saved guy relating oxygen starved hallucinations upon being "brought back to life". Of course a religious practice would evolve from something that seems to be resurrection.

The Bolton flaying is largely because they are psycho.