Whats with the theory about Tyrion being a targ?

[Solmyr]

This may be a little off topic here but what does it mean for a character, being "beyond redemption"? What does it mean for his personal storyline and his future in the books? Do you mean "redemption" in the eyes of westerosi society or the readers' eyes?

Naturally, I mean redemption in the eyes of the readers. Westerosi suffer from chronic misinformation about almost everything that's going on around them so we can't really count on them being objective when passing judgement on characters.

I love Tyrion as a PoV, he is witty, he knows stuff, he goes places and he knows how to take care of himself.

That doesn't mean he isn't fucked up as a person. He has been mocked by everyone since birth, which probably caused him to develop an inferiority complex and start using his superior wit to mock everyone else in turn. In the world of Westeros 95% of people don't have access to many books besides the seven-pointed star and other religious crap. The other 5% are usually noblemen groomed for knighthood and command, they have to train in arms and so on. From time to time we stumble upon someone who is truly bookish, but it's a very rare occurrence. Tyrion is smart enough to understand that he holds an absolute advantage over nearly anyone in the world in a battle of wits. Instead of using it to achieve something for the good of himself, his house, his friends (he doesn't really have any) or the realm, he prefers to amuse himself by flinging quips and jests on everyone.

Up until the end of ACoK he was about a somewhat constructive purpose - trying to defend KL. He succeeded, but not alone (the city would've surely fallen if not for the efforts of Tywin and LF), as soon as he woke he underwent a dramatic change: he began brooding on how everyone had robbed him of his glory for saving their city. Instead of using his wit to get back in a place of power (he surely could've) he throws tantrums at his father about getting Casterly Rock (at that time Tywin still believes he would be able to convince Jaime to give up the white, so Tywin rightfully refuses) and proceeds to mocking everyone in court (the king, chiefly), knowing full-well that he's dancing on rotten ice. He is framed for Joffrey's murder, that is a wrong done him indeed. When Shae comes out that is the turning point, he is truly hurt by her betrayal (obviously he has fallen in love with another whore ... well done Einstein) and that is when he requests trial by battle, going against all the plans Tywin might've made to wriggle him out of the entire mess (Tywin would've, cold man as he might be, he looks after his own). At that point Tyrion still doesn't know the truth about Tysha (if that is indeed the truth) so he has no reason to hate or mistrust his father.

Tyrion is rare among characters, for his follies cannot be excused by lack of brains or misinformation. The story is written in such a way that the readers tend to excuse most of his behaviour, because they are seeing things from his PoV and not Tywin's. Would you feel the same if, say, Robb had murdered Eddard, for any reason? Or Joffrey - Jaime. You'd probably condemn both, cuz everyone freakin' loves dear honourable Ned and everyone hates Joffrey (and many love Jaime). Objectively, however, it's still kinslaying of the worst kind.

Returning to the topic at hand, having said that T=T is one of the only conceivable paths of redemption left for Tyrion, how do you imagine Tyrion's story ending if he remains a Lannister? Dany will never have him, especially since Selmy will advise against it. She might not kill him, but how do you imagine him getting to ride a dragon if he's not a Targ? If he is he could prove it by actually mastering a dragon on his own, if he isn't he is likely to end like Quentyn if he tries to steal one. And even if we somehow imagine Tyrion and Dany allying (which most fans seem to crave, to my utter non-comprehension) what would follow? Them returning to westeros and raining fire down upon all who oppose them? So the great future in front of Tyrion would be sealing the doom of his own house and all his kin, all for a girl he once had a crush on (she never even died, Tywin treated her much more gently than he usually treats people who displease him) and for being wrongly accused of a crime. I'm sorry, but if it truly ends anything like this, Tyrion would officially be one of the worst* characters in the books.

*in terms of deeds done

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Viserys never claimed Targs are immune to ALL diseases, just to the common ones. We have plenty of accounts of Targs and would-be-targs in conditions that would lead to infection, yet nothing happens. To counterbalance all that we have the account of one Targ, long ago, who died of some undefined illness.

No. We have the deaths of three Targaryens in the Great Spring sickness weighed against the word of a crazy-person-idiot Viserys and the fact that Dany didn't get sick with the bloody flux when she was walking around the Meereenese camps and Tyrion- who is only a Targ in theory (a theory I don't believe)- who does not get grey scale. Sometimes people just don't get sick. If people didn't have natural immunities, even without magic Targaryen blood, and all germs were 100% effectively contagious we would all die when the first plague came along unless we completely avoided contact with everyone, but this is not how it works. What other accounts are there of Targs not getting sick when you think they should?

[The Swaggering Bravo]

Lack of diseases is a proof of Tyrion being a Targaryen? Are you serious? Oberyn Martell and Theon Greyjoy were undoubtedly very promiscuous men, and they never got any STDs. Come to think of it, Theon was also treated very differently from his sister by his father, and Theon's mother is more than a little crazy, so his dad must have been a Targaryen too!

[Solmyr]

No. We have the deaths of three Targaryens in the Great Spring sickness weighed against the word of a crazy-person-idiot Viserys and the fact that Dany didn't get sick with the bloody flux when she was walking around the Meereenese camps and Tyrion- who is only a Targ in theory (a theory I don't believe)- who does not get grey scale. Sometimes people just don't get sick. If people didn't have natural immunities, even without magic Targaryen blood, and all germs were 100% effectively contagious we would all die when the first plague came along unless we completely avoided contact with everyone, but this is not how it works. What other accounts are there of Targs not getting sick when you think they should?

If only the Tyrion=Targ theory was built solely on the disease-immunity, you might've had a point. Furthermore, in case you've missed the general theme of my arguments, I do not hold firm believe that Tyrion is a Targ, nor do I crave him to be one. I believe there are hints that he might be one and I believe that should he prove to be one it may aid his character and story development, absolve him of some monstrous crimes (tho not completely) and allow him to achieve some sort of redemption.

[Faint]

But then by that logic wouldn't Jon technically be a Sand instead of a Targ (Remember if R+L=J, then he was born in the ToJ which is in Dorne).

And I don't think bastards really mean anything in symbolism.

To reiterate, yes, I believe Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. There was a reason the Kings Guard was there, they were protecting their king.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

If only the Tyrion=Targ theory was built solely on the disease-immunity, you might've had a point. Furthermore, in case you've missed the general theme of my arguments, I do not hold firm believe that Tyrion is a Targ, nor do I crave him to be one. I believe there are hints that he might be one and I believe that should he prove to be one it may aid his character and story development, absolve him of some monstrous crimes (tho not completely) and allow him to achieve some sort of redemption.

The disagreement we were having was over whether Targs can get diseases or not. I wasn't arguing against the Tyrion is a Targ theory. I was saying that the disease immunity argument does not hold. I'm not trying to disprove the theory, I only mentioned as an aside that I didn't believe the Tyrion is a Targ theory. But that is irrelevant to what I was saying, which was simply that Targaryens have no disease immunity. So I think I definitely did have a point, and I'll repeat it again: Targaryens are not immune to disease.

[tze]

apparently immune to STIs and other diseases (such as grey scale)

This the part that I've never understood at all about the "Tyrion = Targ" theories. We very explicitly know that Viserys was full of BS when he told Dany that Targaryens are immune to disease: the Great Spring Sickness, a pox caught from a whore, greyscale, etc.---many people with Targ blood have been infected by them all. Dany is clearly sick in her final chapter in ADWD, and she says she had a fever even before she ate those questionable berries. (That she immediately knows what a fever feels like is also an indication that Dany absolutely has been sick in the past, regardless of her protestations to the contrary.) Rather importantly, Targaryen blood did not protect Shireen from catching greyscale, not to mention that, according to myth, greyscale came about as the result of a curse by Garin against the Valyrian dragonriders ("the lords of fire").

As for STDs, Tyrion is wealthy and can afford expensive prostitutes. Randall Tarly had the private parts of a prostitute who'd given STDs to his soldiers burned with lye. The fact that Tyrion has never caught an STD isn't exactly unprecedented, given what's done to prostitutes known for giving men (especially powerful men) an STD, not to mention the fact that Tyrion isn't exactly hanging out in cheap brothels.

And If Tyrion does have some sort of immunity against greyscale, there's absolutely no evidence to suggest it comes from Targaryen blood. I mean, we've heard of someone with Targ blood getting greyscale somewhat recently, and in fact, a whole legend has sprung up about how greyscale was supposedly "born" to infect people of Valyrian descent in general and dragonriders in particular (and this kind of legend wouldn't have sprung up in the first place if grayscale never touched Valyrians or Valyrian dragonriders). Have we ever heard of a dwarf with greyscale? If Tyrion has an immunity to greyscale, I'd say that's a more likely path to explore than the idea that Targs are immune to any kind of disease.

This post is way longer than I intended, but the idea that Tyrion's failure to catch greyscale or an STD, two things that people with Targ blood have very explicitly done, somehow points to him descending from House Targaryen, has never made any sense to me. The entire idea that Targs don't get sick comes from the ravings of Viserys, a guy who might as well have had "Delusional" tattooed across his forehead. And those delusions are only ever backed up by a Targ whom we later see getting sick.

[Solmyr]

The disagreement we were having was over whether Targs can get diseases or not. I wasn't arguing against the Tyrion is a Targ theory. I was saying that the disease immunity argument does not hold. I'm not trying to disprove the theory, I only mentioned as an aside that I didn't believe the Tyrion is a Targ theory. But that is irrelevant to what I was saying, which was simply that Targaryens have no disease immunity. So I think I definitely did have a point, and I'll repeat it again: Targaryens are not immune to disease.

Since you insist, I shall oblige.

No you are wrong in believing that you know for sure that Targaryens do not have disease immunity. There is contradictory evidence in the book, therefore neither theory can be proven or disproven. You are basing your statement on accounts by narrators with uncertain credibility. Furthermore some of the diseases in the world of asoiaf are made-up and as it is a fantasy world with magical elements you cannot rationalize based on how diseases work in our world.

To sum it up:

I am trying to prove that one of the hints in support of the T=T theory is the mentioned Targ disease immunity. I do not try to prove that this immunity exist. I am merely stating that it is a hint in support of the theory. Should we happen to receive undeniable proof that Targs do not have disease immunity (I cannot imagine that ever happening) it will no longer be such a hint.

You are trying to prove that Targs do not have disease immunity. You are basing that on the statement of a narrator with uncertain credibility. It would be like me saying "Jon's mother is the fisherwife that saved Ned near the sisters", because some narrator in the books said so.

[Serie]

To sum it up:

I am trying to prove that one of the hints in support of the T=T theory is the mentioned Targ disease immunity. I do not try to prove that this immunity exist. I am merely stating that it is a hint in support of the theory. Should we happen to receive undeniable proof that Targs do not have disease immunity (I cannot imagine that ever happening) it will no longer be such a hint.

You are trying to prove that Targs do not have disease immunity. You are basing that on the statement of a narrator with uncertain credibility. It would be like me saying "Jon's mother is the fisherwife that saved Ned near the sisters", because some narrator in the books said so.

Dear Ser/Lady (I'm sorry, can't tell from the name/profile), I do admire your passion, but what more proof do you need (do we ALL need) besides three, known pure blooded Targs that have died from various diseases? And this doesn't come from a source of uncertain credibility. It is also stated in the Dunk&Egg stories.

Even if we forget the fact that Dany herself is sick in the last pages of ADWD (as tze already said), or accept the theory that she suffered a miscarriage, we can't rely on Viserys sayings. Targs are humans. Exotic yes, still human.

[Woman of War]

To Solmyr:

This was an interesting post, although I do not agree with everything.

First: the murder of Tywin is morally not different if Tyrion is really Tywin's son or not, since, simply, he has no idea of doubts in Tywin's fatherhood. i think he finally snapped, so applying present day morality it would be murder with mitigating circumstances, in my country the term manslaughter would be applied. The unforgivable sin of killing one's own father would therefore only be irredeemable in the eyes of Westerosi/Essosi people.

Though I agree in a way with your analysis of Tyrion: his behaviour, given his intelligence, is incredibly immature, he opposes against Tywin in pubertarian way instead of actively trying to find his own purpose in life. But I do not think that there is any comparison possible to the situation if e.g. Robb had murdered Ned - i mean, why should he??

I think that a positive turn of Tyrions story is very well possible without him being a Targ. It will be important what he will attempt and achieve from now on, if he might return to Westeros as Daenerys' ally or on his own.

If his story indeed turns even darker because he goes on a vengeful crusade against everyone who has ever wronged him this would be indeed a very sad turn, though even then Martin might decide to let him live somewhere in lonely bitterness. The author might on the other hand decide to let him die a heroic death after he has done the right thing and "saved the world". I personally do not think that characters will be awarded with "somehow ever after" for good deeds and punished with death for the bad ones.

....the great future in front of Tyrion would be sealing the doom of his own house and all his kin, all for a girl he once had a crush on (she never even died, Tywin treated her much more gently than he usually treats people who displease him) and for being wrongly accused of a crime. I'm sorry, but if it truly ends anything like this, Tyrion would officially be one of the worst* characters in the books.

Yes, maybe Tysha is alive somewhere but what Tywin did to her was incredibly cruel and "gently" is the last word that comes to my mind. And to Tyrion Tysha had been the only person who he believed had loved him the way he was, so Tywin's deed was explicitly meant to break Tyrion's self esteem and his whole personality. And I am convinced that Tywin would have had Tyrion executed.

So Tyrion being half Targ would maybe diminish the impact of the murder in Westerosi eyes (while Shae in their eyes would not even count) but for my personal moral evaluation this is of no importance: Tywin and Shae have been killed and Tyrion was convinced to kill daddy. i wished he had been able to free himself from Tywin's overwhelming shadow in a different, adult way years before. You are indeed right, Solmyr, to emphasize that more insight and creative initiative concerning his own behaviour could be expected from Tyrion, given his intelligence. Only I do not believe in "redemption" and its impact on the story. I root for my favorite characters, one of them is definitely Tyrion. But I have no need to see their bad deeds counterweighed by good ones, so they might earn themselves the right to survive the books. Martin will write the characters the way he intends, they have their storyline and their future or not, they do not need my "moral approval" to go on.

It would of course be more satisfying for me as reader if Tyrion had got a positive, somewhat heroic arc at the end of the story instead of riding down on Kings Landing with fire and sword in raging fury. I want him, sentimental as I am, to grow up and be above personal hatred, I want him to mature and to do the right thing and save the world, cheesy as it is.

[Solmyr]

<snip>

I'm glad we finally got the discussion on Tyrion going in a creative direction.

You are right to point out that when Tyrion did the deed he believes Tywin is his father and is fully aware of what murdering him entails. You're not alone in rooting for Tyrion, that's why I made the parallel with Robb/Ned and Joffrey/Jaime to illustrate that if another son murdered his father, only the father was a character dear to the fans and the son was average/disliked, they would surely perceive the murder in a different way. In this example it is for you to imagine a similar scenario between father and son that would lead to the murder - there is, of course, nothing in the books that implies that Robb/Joffrey may want to murder their fathers. My point on this argument is that fans never really condemn the murder of Tywin, because most of them like Tyrion and dislike Tywin.

As for Tysha, what was done to her is nowhere near gentle by our morals and understandings. By westerosi ones, it might very well be. As far as we know it wasn't even rape, the men took her in turns and it was by command of their lord, who, by then, was well-known for being merciless and vengeful. Most likely some of the guardsman wouldn't have even wanted to do it, but dare they refuse? Sparing Tysha's life actually strikes me as very un-Tywin-istic. He could have easily charged her with seducing and/or kidnapping his son, which would've warranted an execution. Either it was a rare spark of mercy or Tywin truly believed the punishment fitted the crime. Either way, compared to many atrocities we've witnessed or heard of in the series, on the scale of 1-10, what happened to Tysha is perhaps 5-6.

I, too, am rooting for Tyrion most of the time. But believe it or not, I was also rooting for Tywin. And other characters with conflicting agendas. That's why when a clash occurs I put aside my personal feelings as a reader and try to objectively analyse the deeds and motivations of each. It saddens me that most people (both readers and westerosi) would never realize what kind of a man Tywin Lannister was, what he achieved and how much he sacrificed in the process.

[Long Night Survivor]

To reiterate, yes, I believe Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. There was a reason the Kings Guard was there, they were protecting their king.

Even if they were married, Aegon would be their king by your logic. By everyone else's logic, Aerys was still king even if he was mad. Besides if nobody knew they were married (not even their parents or siblings) then do you really think that they were really married? I think he's still a bastard just the most noble bastard in recent history.

Another thing, please refrain from inserting fandom theories as fact.

[Long Night Survivor]

Double post, it's hard to do this on an iPod so cut me some slack.

[Faint]

Another thing, please refrain from inserting fandom theories as fact.

When I say "I believe" you should take that to mean "I believe," you should not take it to mean "everyone should believe," otherwise, I would have written that.

Really, it isn't that complicated.

Also, while I'm here, no, Arys and Aegon were not alive when Ned confronted the Kings Guard protecting Jon Snow, or rather, Jon Targaryen under the theory I BELIEVE.

See how that works?

[Ser Lepus]

About Tyrion "disease immunity", this what I said in another thread:

I think people are reading too much into Tyrion avoidance of greyscale´s infection; the guy is just fiendishly lucky when it comes to escaping out of life-threatenig situations: he survived a dive in the Blackwater while severely wounded without getting his wounds infected, yes, but he survived also an assessination attempt a second before, and no anti-sickness mutation protected him from decapitation, just his luck...

He also survived Lysa Arryn´s mockery of a trial (saved by Bronn), the crossing of the Mountains of The Moon (by befriending the wildlings), was saved from execution by the timely arrival of Jamie to King´s Landing, survived being devoured by a lion because Hizrad told Daenerys it was going to happen a second before the beast was released...etc.

The Spring Sickness (or was it Spring Fever?) killed half the Targaryen family a hundred years ago. They aren´t disease-proof (Viserys was a loony, and, if Daenerys still believes him, she may be a bit phony too).

I think the reason Dany didn´t contracted the Bloody Flux is that dysentery goes literally from "butt to mouth"; people got infected because they shat too close to their drinking water sources (latrines too close to the wells, for example), which helped it to spread quickly in military camps. People also got infected when they touched diseased people and later ate without thoroughly washing themselves first.

Dany didn´t drink water from the river or the wells outside Mereen, and the washed herself before eating.

As for Tyrion, he just has a fiendish luck when it comes to narrowly escaping death.

I was just saying that the fact Daenerys didn´t catch the Bloody Flux doesn´t prove that the Targayren are immune to disease. The Targayren aren´t inmune to disease, because many of them died of disease in the past.

There are some people that think: 1.-Daenerys didn´t catch the Bloody Flux, so the Targayren are immune to disease; 2.-Tyrion didn´t catch greyscale, so he is immune to disease; 3.-Ergo, Tyrion is a secret Targayren.

I was explaining that (logical fallacies aside) they are wrong because: 1.-Daenerys didn´t catch the Bloody Flux because she washed herself; 2.-The Targayren aren´t immune to disease because several of them died because of disease in the past and 3.-Tyrion is not necessarily immune to greyscale, he may be just incredibly lucky.

[now my watch begins]

There is also some similarity in the description of Tyrion and Raegho (Dany's infant that died at birth). I don't remember the exact wording, but Rhaego is described as monstrous and twisted. GRRM constantly refers to Tyrion as twisted legs and he was rumored to be a monster when he was an infant. Dany's infant could have been a dwarf like Tyrion. It might be possible that the Targs have some genetic problem that sometimes results when they mate outside their own blood. Dany + Drogo = Rhaego, twisted and monstrous and then Mad King + Joanna Lannister = Tyrion the twisted and monstrous. That may be why Targs try to keep with their own blood. I know there are a lot of exceptions to this (Jon being a likely exception). Just a little more information that points to Tyrion being a Targ. Take it as you will.

[Know Face Man]

I don't see why its a big deal either way. If hes a Targ fine, if hes a Lannister that's good too. Either way the story will be fine.

Tyrions mom was a Lannister so killing Tywin makes him a kinslayer no matter who his dad was I guess you could say it takes away the hole father son thing but...

It opens up Tyrion and Jaime killing eachothers Fathers.

It would explain why Tyrion said he dreamed about Dragons when he was young.

I like the idea of Tyrion being half Targ. To me it makes the story that much better.

I also feel that most people who don't like the idea of Tyrion a Targ only feel that way because they didn't catch the idea themselves

[jarl the climber]

Naturally, I mean redemption in the eyes of the readers. Westerosi suffer from chronic misinformation about almost everything that's going on around them so we can't really count on them being objective when passing judgement on characters.

I love Tyrion as a PoV, he is witty, he knows stuff, he goes places and he knows how to take care of himself.

That doesn't mean he isn't fucked up as a person. He has been mocked by everyone since birth, which probably caused him to develop an inferiority complex and start using his superior wit to mock everyone else in turn. In the world of Westeros 95% of people don't have access to many books besides the seven-pointed star and other religious crap. The other 5% are usually noblemen groomed for knighthood and command, they have to train in arms and so on. From time to time we stumble upon someone who is truly bookish, but it's a very rare occurrence. Tyrion is smart enough to understand that he holds an absolute advantage over nearly anyone in the world in a battle of wits. Instead of using it to achieve something for the good of himself, his house, his friends (he doesn't really have any) or the realm, he prefers to amuse himself by flinging quips and jests on everyone.

Up until the end of ACoK he was about a somewhat constructive purpose - trying to defend KL. He succeeded, but not alone (the city would've surely fallen if not for the efforts of Tywin and LF), as soon as he woke he underwent a dramatic change: he began brooding on how everyone had robbed him of his glory for saving their city. Instead of using his wit to get back in a place of power (he surely could've) he throws tantrums at his father about getting Casterly Rock (at that time Tywin still believes he would be able to convince Jaime to give up the white, so Tywin rightfully refuses) and proceeds to mocking everyone in court (the king, chiefly), knowing full-well that he's dancing on rotten ice. He is framed for Joffrey's murder, that is a wrong done him indeed. When Shae comes out that is the turning point, he is truly hurt by her betrayal (obviously he has fallen in love with another whore ... well done Einstein) and that is when he requests trial by battle, going against all the plans Tywin might've made to wriggle him out of the entire mess (Tywin would've, cold man as he might be, he looks after his own). At that point Tyrion still doesn't know the truth about Tysha (if that is indeed the truth) so he has no reason to hate or mistrust his father.

Tyrion is rare among characters, for his follies cannot be excused by lack of brains or misinformation. The story is written in such a way that the readers tend to excuse most of his behaviour, because they are seeing things from his PoV and not Tywin's. Would you feel the same if, say, Robb had murdered Eddard, for any reason? Or Joffrey - Jaime. You'd probably condemn both, cuz everyone freakin' loves dear honourable Ned and everyone hates Joffrey (and many love Jaime). Objectively, however, it's still kinslaying of the worst kind.

Returning to the topic at hand, having said that T=T is one of the only conceivable paths of redemption left for Tyrion, how do you imagine Tyrion's story ending if he remains a Lannister? Dany will never have him, especially since Selmy will advise against it. She might not kill him, but how do you imagine him getting to ride a dragon if he's not a Targ? If he is he could prove it by actually mastering a dragon on his own, if he isn't he is likely to end like Quentyn if he tries to steal one. And even if we somehow imagine Tyrion and Dany allying (which most fans seem to crave, to my utter non-comprehension) what would follow? Them returning to westeros and raining fire down upon all who oppose them? So the great future in front of Tyrion would be sealing the doom of his own house and all his kin, all for a girl he once had a crush on (she never even died, Tywin treated her much more gently than he usually treats people who displease him) and for being wrongly accused of a crime. I'm sorry, but if it truly ends anything like this, Tyrion would officially be one of the worst* characters in the books.

*in terms of deeds done

You could say that Joff came close to getting Jamie killed by executing Eddard. Its hard to see him and Dany getting along if he is not a Targ but he does know a lot about dragons probaly if the Targ thing doesn't pan out he will do something to displease her and she might send him to the wall, where his knowledge of her and her dragons will come back to haunt her. Its also possible that in this scenario that Stannis might clear him of his crimes and name him the Lord of Casterly Rock. IMO as the non-Cersei and the non-Jamie this will make Tyrion attractive to Stannis, Aegon and Dany as a potential loyal lord of Casterly Rock. Whether this would be popular in the Westerlands is another matter, probaly Jamie is the most popular and respected of the three.

[poor lollys]

Blame Ser Barristan. He blabbed something to Dany about Aerys and Joanna.

Also Tyrion has heterochromia, a trait that so far only one other character is mentioned as having: Shiera Seastar, one of Aegon V's children.

Also fascination with dragons, apparently immune to STIs and other diseases (such as grey scale), hair even paler that the other Lannisters, and a few snippets of conversation between Tyrion and Tywin suggesting that Tywin is not 100% sure Tyrion is his son at all.

And more tenuously, a thematic link between Dany, Jon (very likely Rhaegar's son), and Tyrion (perhaps Aerys' son, but very uncertain so far). That is, the mothers to all three died birthing them.

I had never even considered this theory until today when I randomly popped in this thread and aw this post. My mind is officially blown because I never, ever put that together (Tyrion=Targ) even though I knew all of these things.

And I love it! That i exactly why I started coming to this forum.because I am enjoying reaing all the dedicated fan perceptions, theories, suggestions, fun facts, etc, usw and seeing all the speculation in general.

I'm not sure whether this theory will pan out or not but i love the idea that it might. and that is what has kept me reading ASOIAF- all the possiblilities. To me these books have a wonderful soap opera-like quality (mind you a blood-filled, rapey, dragon laden soap opera. lol) that keeps me on the edge of my seat because there are just so many, many wonderful possibilities!

So thank you for blowing my mind with this one post!

[Independent George]

Lack of diseases is a proof of Tyrion being a Targaryen? Are you serious? Oberyn Martell and Theon Greyjoy were undoubtedly very promiscuous men, and they never got any STDs. Come to think of it, Theon was also treated very differently from his sister by his father, and Theon's mother is more than a little crazy, so his dad must have been a Targaryen too!

Holy crap - I think you just proved that Oberyn Martell and Theon Greyjoy are Targaryans! I never would have thought of that on my own - thanks!!!