What the heck did Robb really expect of Walder Frey?

[Milcov]

Let's face Robb's marriage to Jeyne did cause the.Red Wedding. Theon's sack of Winterfell and the taking of Moat Cailin caused the Red Wedding. Did Walder Frey's pride get hurt by Robb's actions? Sure it did. Would WF have dared to backstab and betray Robb if the North hadn't suddenly been outfoxed by the Ironborne? No way.

Theon's crime had a.much greater impact then Robb's marriage.

Would Walder Frey have killed the man who would make his family royalty? No. Robb caused the Red Wedding.

[Rob Snow]

Robb was only 16 or so and the Stark kids all started off way too naive, honorable and unaware of the ways of the world. They were not politically savvy and thought everyone was as up front and honest as them. Robb probably did not expect Walder Frey to be too angry because he figured it was not that big of a deal - he did not understand what breaking his oath would cost him.

That said, nothing could justify the Red Wedding. It was and continues to be the most horrific act in the five books. And the destruction of Grey Wind was unnecessary. Why should Robb not feel Grey Wind was his protector just because he thought Summer and Shaggy Dog had not protected Bran and Rickon? He had concluded that the myth about the direwolves was not true and left himself unprotected and poor Grey Wind alone and vulnerable.

I cannot wait until the Frey's get their due. I want Walder Frey to get what is coming to him and for him to see his large family destroyed before his eyes. Please, please in Book 6! And i want Nymeria and her Wolf Army to be a part of it.

+1

[Castel]

Would Walder Frey have killed the man who would make his family royalty? No. Robb caused the Red Wedding.

Exactly, the root cause here was Robb.

[Winter's Knight]

When you think about it, Robb and Sansa made the same mistake: succumb to hormones.

[ChromeWeasel]

I think Robb's marriage to Jeyne was the proof that while he was pretending to be a grown man and a king, that he really was still just an immature, love-sick, horny teenager.

Robb's acts with Jeyne were very selfish, if fairly understandable.

He shouldnt have had sex with her in the first place, although you can understand why he did. At that point he was betrothed and he needs to keep in mind that he has formed an alliance with the Frey's through the future promise of matrimony. Catlyn's chapters point out to the readers how big a deal this is in general, and in particular how important it is to Walder Frey. You shouldnt put an alliance like this at risk in the middle of the war. Doing so is extremely selfish and impulsive. There's nothing honorable about it.

After the fact Robb compounds things by another selfish choice. He promised himself wed to the Frey's for their help in the way, certifying their alliance. He dishonors that alliance by breaking the engagement. Alternatively he could dishonor himself personally by leaving behind Jeyne and not marrying her. Robb selfishly chooses his own personal honor above the honor of his engagement and his alliance to the Freys.

It's all understandable, but it's definitely not the honorable thing for Robb to do. Marrying Jeyne is the selfish thing to do. That's the choice that hurts people farther away from Robb, while keeping those closest to him happy and allowing Robb the physical and immediate pleasures of his new wife.

People can spin things however they want, but in the end Robb was pretty selfish. And it all comes back to bite him and everyone around him.

[Mumatil]

Remember people, Rob's father was Eddard Stark?

Remember how his honour and trust helped him as Hand of the King?

Remember how Jon's men of the night watch honoured and respected him as Lord Commander?

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Robb's acts with Jeyne were very selfish, if fairly understandable.

He shouldnt have had sex with her in the first place, although you can understand why he did. At that point he was betrothed and he needs to keep in mind that he has formed an alliance with the Frey's through the future promise of matrimony. Catlyn's chapters point out to the readers how big a deal this is in general, and in particular how important it is to Walder Frey. You shouldnt put an alliance like this at risk in the middle of the war. Doing so is extremely selfish and impulsive. There's nothing honorable about it.

After the fact Robb compounds things by another selfish choice. He promised himself wed to the Frey's for their help in the way, certifying their alliance. He dishonors that alliance by breaking the engagement. Alternatively he could dishonor himself personally by leaving behind Jeyne and not marrying her. Robb selfishly chooses his own personal honor above the honor of his engagement and his alliance to the Freys.

It's all understandable, but it's definitely not the honorable thing for Robb to do. Marrying Jeyne is the selfish thing to do. That's the choice that hurts people farther away from Robb, while keeping those closest to him happy and allowing Robb the physical and immediate pleasures of his new wife.

People can spin things however they want, but in the end Robb was pretty selfish. And it all comes back to bite him and everyone around him.

Right on the money, here. I love Robb, but I think his story is meant to illustrate how crazy it is that someone as young as the Youg Wolf is given all that responsibility.

You mention that his choice hurts the people farther away from Robb, and in terms of Walder Frey, that's true. But there were Freys with him in the West (as those in Harrenhal have heard of Robb's marriage before Arya leaves), and all the men of the North that Robb brought south with him. It is the latter that Robb hurt the most.

Lord Walder's crossing is the only sure route available for Robb and these men to eventually return North. By forwearing himself, and wedding Jeyne, it was Robb who damned the Northmen to die in the Riverlands - leagues away from their homes and families, which are all bound to suffer through winter as a result.

Robb called himself King, and I think that means a responsibility to consider the consequences of one's actions. Especially the consequences that could befall the people who follow you, and are willing to die in your name.

[Red Wedding Participant]

Robb's acts with Jeyne were very selfish, if fairly understandable.

He shouldnt have had sex with her in the first place, although you can understand why he did. At that point he was betrothed and he needs to keep in mind that he has formed an alliance with the Frey's through the future promise of matrimony. Catlyn's chapters point out to the readers how big a deal this is in general, and in particular how important it is to Walder Frey. You shouldnt put an alliance like this at risk in the middle of the war. Doing so is extremely selfish and impulsive. There's nothing honorable about it.

After the fact Robb compounds things by another selfish choice. He promised himself wed to the Frey's for their help in the way, certifying their alliance. He dishonors that alliance by breaking the engagement. Alternatively he could dishonor himself personally by leaving behind Jeyne and not marrying her. Robb selfishly chooses his own personal honor above the honor of his engagement and his alliance to the Freys.

It's all understandable, but it's definitely not the honorable thing for Robb to do. Marrying Jeyne is the selfish thing to do. That's the choice that hurts people farther away from Robb, while keeping those closest to him happy and allowing Robb the physical and immediate pleasures of his new wife.

People can spin things however they want, but in the end Robb was pretty selfish. And it all comes back to bite him and everyone around him.

I think it was selfish, and also not understandable. It was an idiotic decision, and one that I don't even understand, given how much the Starks love honor and such. Honestly, I feel that the Red Wedding was almost justified because of how Robb acted. You want to be king? With great power comes great responsibility.

Remember people, Rob's father was Eddard Stark?

Remember how his honour and trust helped him as Hand of the King?

Remember how Jon's men of the night watch honoured and respected him as Lord Commander?

Silly Starks, being so honourable. LOL!!

[The Mother of The Others]

that he'd act like a banner man and stuff

[jarl the climber]

None of Robbs bannermen seem upset by his marriage, Umber wanted him to attack the Freys for leaving him over it. IMO if Stannis wins the Blackwater battle Walder Frey would have forgot all about his familys honor and been glad to have settled for Edmure. The real problem Robb had is that his cause seemed doomed after Stannis lost and the Reach allied with the Lannisters.

[The King in the South]

None of Robbs bannermen seem upset by his marriage, Umber wanted him to attack the Freys for leaving him over it. IMO if Stannis wins the Blackwater battle Walder Frey would have forgot all about his familys honor and been glad to have settled for Edmure. The real problem Robb had is that his cause seemed doomed after Stannis lost and the Reach allied with the Lannisters.

None of his bannermen had their marriage contracts broken; especially after having lost their firstborn son in the service to said breaker of contracts. (Well Karstark, but we see how that turned out.)

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I don’t think Red Wedding was Frey’s fault. WFrey over exaggerate yes but it was only Robb’s fault.

Robb’s marriage wasn’t the honorable thing to do. Not sleeping with a girl when you gave your word to another was the honorable thing to do. It was Robb who broke is promises when Frey fulfilled his promise about letting them pass the Twins. How can someone being played for a fool and don’t react? When someone promises something he or she must keep his/her promise at any cost. It was Robb’s primary mistake to not honor his promise and Frey’s mistake to don’t be faithful to his Tully liege lord.

[Mulled Wino]

I'm re-reading ASOS right now, and as much as it hurts, I find myself getting even angrier at Robb than I do at Walder Frey. Yes, the Red Wedding was a horrible act of cold-blooded murder completely disproportionate to the original "crime". At the same time, though, what did Robb really expect of Walder Frey? Whenever I put myself in Walder Frey's shoes, I don't kill Robb at the Red Wedding, but I don't let him cross, either. Instead, I send a raven to King's Landing and let Tywin Lannister know exactly when Robb's army is approaching the Twins, and hold them off in a siege while waiting for Lannister/Tyrell reinforcements. Robb's army, outnumbered 8 to 1 and caught while investing a siege, gets wiped out.

I'm not justifying the Red Wedding; far from it. I think Walder Frey had plenty of additional, more legitimate avenues for revenge than that. But far from absolving him, that makes Robb even more culpable for losing the North, not less.

I would argue that Robb's marriage to Jeyne Westerling was easily the dumbest decision made by any character in the entire series. It was dumber than Ned telling Cersei that he knew the truth, dumber than Cersei re-arming the Faith Militant, dumber than Catelyn arresting Tyrion at the inn, dumber than Sansa mooning over Joffrey, dumber than Daenerys staying in Meereen, and dumber than Quentyn trying to tame the dragon.

He didn't just place her honor above his; he placed her honor above his entire kingdom, and all those who chose to follow him. He didn't just place her honor above his own, as Tywin Lannister put it; he put her honor above everyone who followed him, fought for him, and bled for him. There's nothing noble in that; it's selfish, narcissistic, and arrogant. It didn't just cost him his own life, it cost the lives of all those who placed their trust in him - and it would have even without the Red Wedding. He betrayed them just as much as he betrayed the Freys.

Saw the Red Wedding coming a mile away. Robb thinking he would be able to mend his relationship with Walder was spectacularily stupid from Robb's entire force.

[Swordsaint]

I completely disagree. Robb was 16, King, and wanted to be with Jeyne.. This had nothing to do with Robb's honor. Robb didn't even break a Frey a heart. No woman was even chosen. The Red Wedding was about fear of Bolten's & Lannisters, combined with Frey greed. Walder could no longer have a royal sibling. So he chose other side. Walder was also a Riverrun banner man. Robb should never have had to make such a deal to begin with. in contrast Walder making a deal based on 16 year old penis is probably equally stupid. .

Robb's decision was very dumb, but it's not nearly as dumb as some of the other decisions I've seen in ASOIAF. Some of posters in these threads make me laugh when comparing the decisions of a 16 year male's love life. To experienced high born adults in political situations. Maybe it's because the books which included Robb are the best. And it's hard to get over that he's dead. And maybe it pisses people off enough to blame him for his own death.

I believe The Red Wedding may have happened regardless of Robb's decisions. Bolten was already planning against him sending men to be slaughtered at Duskandale.

Top three most dumb decisions in the whole story are as follows:

1. Theon - I'm going to take Winterfell with 20 guys I don't even know.

2. Dany - I'm going to lock my dragons up and stunt their growth because a stranger came into court with charred bones. (coming from a culture that really values the lives of children, 163 children)

3. Cat - I'm going to let the Kingslayer go. On the word of the family who just cut my husbands head off. Tore up a letter with king's seal in open court. And was sent by one of the very men who betrayed him. If Cat was a real "wolf" she would have sent her reply with LF's head...... Arya would do it!!

[Mulled Wino]

I completely disagree. Robb was 16, King, and wanted to be with Jeyne.. This had nothing to do with Robb's honor. Robb didn't even break a Frey a heart. No woman was even chosen. The Red Wedding was about fear of Bolten's & Lannisters, combined with Frey greed. Walder could no longer have a royal sibling. So he chose other side. Walder was also a Riverrun banner man. Robb should never have had to make such a deal to begin with. in contrast Walder making a deal based on 16 year old penis is probably equally stupid. .

Robb's decision was very dumb, but it's not nearly as dumb as some of the other decisions I've seen in ASOIAF. Some of posters in these threads make me laugh when comparing the decisions of a 16 year male's love life. To experienced high born adults in political situations. Maybe it's because the books which included Robb are the best. And it's hard to get over that he's dead. And maybe it pisses people off enough to blame him for his own death.

I believe The Red Wedding may have happened regardless of Robb's decisions. Bolten was already planning against him sending men to be slaughtered at Duskandale.

Top three most dumb decisions in the whole story are as follows:

1. Theon - I'm going to take Winterfell with 20 guys I don't even know.

2. Dany - I'm going to lock my dragons up and stunt their growth because a stranger came into court with charred bones. (coming from a culture that really values the lives of children, 163 children)

3. Cat - I'm going to let the Kingslayer go. On the word of the family who just cut my husbands head off. Tore up a letter with king's seal in open court. And was sent by one of the very men who betrayed him. If Cat was a real "wolf" she would have sent her reply with LF's head...... Arya would do it!!

Rob marrying Jayne trumps.

So what if it doesn't break a Frey's heart? A deal was made to pass for the entire North, period.

[Swordsaint]

Rob marrying Jayne trumps.

So what if it doesn't break a Frey's heart? A deal was made to pass for the entire North, period.

LOL

Robb wasn't even betrothed to a Frey... A deal that he shouldn't have had to make? A decision that [many] 16 year old kings would probably make. Sorry, it's not even close to trumping my top three. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[A wilding]

I completely disagree. Robb was 16, King, and wanted to be with Jeyne.. This had nothing to do with Robb's honor. Robb didn't even break a Frey a heart. No woman was even chosen. The Red Wedding was about fear of Bolten's & Lannisters, combined with Frey greed. Walder could no longer have a royal sibling. So he chose other side. Walder was also a Riverrun banner man. Robb should never have had to make such a deal to begin with. in contrast Walder making a deal based on 16 year old penis is probably equally stupid. .

Personally I don't think Frey was stupid to trust to Robb's honour, I also was surprised that Robb broke his word so stupidly. And of course Robb marrying Jeyne was "to do with his honor". It was dishonourable whether he was a king or not. He had made a deal with Walder Frey. Walder Frey had delivered his part of the bargain, but then Robb went back on his word. Robb's youth may be some excuse, but does not alter the facts.

But yes, maybe when Robb found that Frey wanted a high price for the crossing in AGoT he should have retreated back to Moat Cailin instead, instead of insisting that he must cross. It would not have done much for his reputation though.

[Winterfell is Burning]

I don’t think Red Wedding was Frey’s fault. WFrey over exaggerate yes but it was only Robb’s fault.

Yeah, right, the evil bastard Robb forced Walder Frey to break one of the most sacred conventions in Westeros and murder thousands of defenseless people in cold blood during a wedding, right.

[Mulled Wino]

LOL

Robb wasn't even betrothed to a Frey... A deal that he shouldn't have had to make? A decision that [many] 16 year old kings would probably make. Sorry, it's not even close to trumping my top three. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

He did have to make that decision, and if he's responsible for the north, he shouldn't be making decisions like that, he had already made quite a few decisions that were mature for a 16 yr old. Sorry, age is no excuse.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Personally I don't think Frey was stupid to trust to Robb's honour, I also was surprised that Robb broke his word so stupidly. And of course Robb marrying Jeyne was "to do with his honor".

Tywin doesn't agree. Tyrion specifically says "Where was the honor in that?" and Tywin replies "He chose her honor over his own".