Patchface Prophesies

[#Fire and Blood]

"Under the sea, the snow falls up"

Has anybody else read the Winter-Fell theory? This could be a direct reference to the snow storms and winter truely coming from winter and moving North to assist the Others and their invasion!

[char custom]

One might be led to believe the passage could also refer to:

1. The remains of Valyria; as posed before, ash in place of literal snow... and being an area of high volcanic activity (Fourteen Flames), rain likely evaporates before it hits the ground (happens in IRL Saharan Desert).

2. The Vale; winter seems to come more slowly there (snow thus far only at high elevations, i.e. mass eviction from the Eyrie). Alyssa's Tears is known to not touch the valley floor, providing the other parallel. Personally, I think its too much of a stretch.

Have to agree on the reading of nennymoans and silver gowns as pertains to Sansa. Silver gown being literal, and nennymoans doubling; anemones come in purple variants, and sea anemones sting and kill with venom (more likely in view of PF's aquamania or whatever you want to call it). The sea anemone interpretation can tie into the woods witch's dream, of a maid with serpents in her hair. Or it could just mean poison!

(Reaching out to folks who are stewing over the sink or swim zombie conumdrum, and those who generally dislike night terrors and being freaked out, you should consider World War Z's take... the novel, not the cinematic snoozefest. Zombies end up milling around on the ocean floor, how they stay intact, scientist were unsure, but what was certain, was that the buggers sometimes washed up on shore, and were known to mill in piles beneath ships.)

[gogorath]

I felt that patchface felt familiar when I read the books the first time. Also when rereading ofc, but then I think it is due to rereading.

I tried to look up books that I've read, but there are quite many. Eventually however, I came upon Pillars of the Earth by Ken Follett, which feautres and ending very influenced by the white ship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Ship

And that might be where the feeling of dejavu concerning the character of patchface comes from.

Also, in Robin Hobbs Farseer Triology, a fool is someone else in disguise.

Those two together could work to make Patchface a targaryen. But they are only connected by me here in the post. There is nothing saying that GRRM would be influensed by these (especially since both Robb and Follet published their books about the same time as GRRM).

I think there is more to it, I recall a third story with some long lost heir being returned as a halfwit fool unknowingly to everyone, and then revealed in the end. But I can't clear my memory. And if such a tale exist, it might be what influenced all of the examples above?

Sorry my english is crap .

The idea of a fool seeing more than those around him is a theme/idea that is very old and very prevalent in a lot of literature. King Lear is one fine example, and there's an absolute certainty that Patchface is in that mold. I think Martin has said as much.

[Firiel Hiren]

Patchface was a slave from Volantis prior to his shipwreck. Therefore, imo, none of his statements use House sigils to represent anyone. He usually references the sea, unless he is making a little song.

"Under the sea the mermen feast on starfish soup and all the serving men are crabs."

I believe this is Patchface's vision of the dinner that Brienne has at the Quiet Isle.

While they eat seafood stew provided by these followers of the Seven-pointed Star for dinner, they are also read to by the Elder Brother others from the Seven-Pointed Star. Therefore the feast is both by listening and eating.

The elder brother (an ex-knight and imo probably a Darry) brings them to the dinner and the serving men include the Gravedigger (aka Sandor Klegane). Therefore the serving people have been armored warriors/knights and could be called "crabs" as crabs are armored.

I think the whole reference is to highlight the coming of the knights devoted to the Star and in particular the knights/warriors on the Quiet Isle.

[Margaret Ballinger]

Patchface was a slave from Volantis prior to his shipwreck. Therefore, imo, none of his statements use House sigils to represent anyone. He usually references the sea, unless he is making a little song.

"Under the sea the mermen feast on starfish soup and all the serving men are crabs."

I believe this is Patchface's vision of the dinner that Brienne has at the Quiet Isle.

While they eat seafood stew provided by these followers of the Seven-pointed Star for dinner, they are also read to by the Elder Brother others from the Seven-Pointed Star. Therefore the feast is both by listening and eating.

The elder brother (an ex-knight and imo probably a Darry) brings them to the dinner and the serving men include the Gravedigger (aka Sandor Klegane). Therefore the serving people have been armored warriors/knights and could be called "crabs" as crabs are armored.

I think the whole reference is to highlight the coming of the knights devoted to the Star and in particular the knights/warriors on the Quiet Isle.

I agree with you about Elder Brother, but not about Patchface.

When Elder Brother came upon Sandor he was barely a day's ride away from the Crossroads Inn to the North and Darry to the south. He never explains why he was so far inland, but later tells Brienne that the Gravedigger buries Lannister next to Stark, Bracken next to Blackwood, and Darry next to Frey. I wasn't aware that Darry was hostle to the Freys (I thought the Darry line is just about extinct), but he seems to know about it. Also he told Brienne not to search along the Trident. Earlier when she runs across part of the Brave Companion's band, they tell her that Lord Beric's men has been 'sniffing all up and down the Trident' for the Hound and the Stark girl. They only learned that when the caught and tortured it out of one of Beric's men. At the time, the only ones that knew the Hound had the Stark girl was the Brotherhood and Lady Stoneheart, and they were the only ones out looking for them along the Trident. So Elder Brother knew this? He convinced Brienne not to go searching there. Also Elder Brother knew who ran the inn, just a couple of weeks after Rorge and his band rode through and killed the last innkeep. How did he know that? Oh, that's right...the inn is a Brotherhood hangout. I'm not saying the Brother is a 'brother', but at least they exchange information. The Brotherhood keeps everything hush-hush, but somehow Elder Bro. is able to keep up with the latest news. So yes, I agree with you, about Elder Brother. He is more than he appears to be. I am currently working out a timeline on him that is based solely on facts, book quotes, and not theories that I hope to post in the future. What made me want to do this is when Arya came to the Saltpans 6 days after leaving the Hound, the Saltpans was already burnt. So that helm hardly had the time to cool off before Rorge found it.

~~~~~

What I disagree with you is about Patchface commenting on a rather pleasant dinner. Everything that Patches has said seems to have a tragic or horriffic ring to it. So I don't know about a simple dinner being the focus of his prophecy. I believe it's something more ominous going on. Along the same lines as the Ghost of the Hight Heart. How she spouts out this death and that murder, all prominent people too. Then when she mentions a maid slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow, people think she is talking about a the beheading of a child's dolly? I believe that was a red herring GRRM threw in.

At first I thought it meant Davos, being a man of the sea, being served the Sister's Stew by Lord Borrell, whose sigil is a crab. But again, now after reading through a second time, I just have doubts of it being about a dinner.

I'm not saying I have any clue what GRRM is planning, but please allow me to throw in my two cents about Patchface. The Starfish soup I will list last.

• Fool's blood, King's blood - everyone knows is the Red Wedding.

• Nennymoans - Patches, like some people, have trouble saying anemone (I have trouble even spelling it. lol) The silver gown, the purple poisonous object in her hair, and that she a was a 'merwife' all goes back to Sansa, and it links up nicely with the Ghost of the High Heart.

Now the rest I haven't figured but have some ideas. I am probably wrong but here it goes:

• Shadows come to dance, shadows come to stay - I know a lot of people think of the shadows in the tent, or Stannis's shadow assassin. But I have a different take on shadows. Bran saw Jaime and the Hound in shadow in a vision. A shadow is nothing except a follower of it's owner, like the shadow of a ball rolling along, or of a car going down the street. Every move a shadow makes is directed by what or who they are connected to. What did Ser Waymar say to the Other before they crossed swords? "Dance with me then." I don't know who or what the shadows are, but I just believe that they are in shadow because they are following orders or acting on behalf of who or what they serve. In that context I could see how Jaime or the Hound, or serving men, or the Night's Watch or anyone who serves could be seen as a shadow.

• Birds have scales for feathers - Probably dragons, but I keep thinking that's too easy. There are other kinds of 'scales.' Fish scales? Snakes sort of have scales. Scales that measure? of justice? Oh... now there's a thought. A bird of that uses justice to fly as a bird would use feathers for flight? That just came to me, really. It came to me as I was typing out the next one about clever bird.

• Clever bird, clever man, clever fool - I don't think he was talking about the raven. Bird and man, maybe Bloodraven? Or does it mean a clever Little Bird, with a clever man and a clever fool? But Dontos wasn't clever so were a clever fool short. Unless the fool isn't really a fool in motley, but a fool of a man. Or just a man who is clever, but is really just a fool in the end? I don't know.

• Smoke rises in bubbles, flames burn green and blue and black - I heard some say it's the battle of blackwater, green fire and smoke in the water, but I don't know. I sort of think of the candles. One green and three black candles were brought over from Valyria. And it is said that they give men visions, allowing them to communicate with others and see across distances. When Sam asks Alleras how they knew he was coming he nods at the candle. Green and black, but what of blue? There are more candles out there that haven't been described yet. There are candles (plural) in the house of Urrathon the Night-Walker but there is no mention of their colors. Could they see visions in the smoke? I don't know, but I don't believe it's burning wildfire.

• It snows up and rain is dry as a bone - sounds like billowing ash to me

Melisandre sees him as having skulls about him, and his lips are red with blood. Euron has possession of a horn and he had one of his men blow. The man's lips were red with blood and blisters from it and he later died. Not saying that he will blow that horn, but he might be the one to blow a horn.

• I will lead it. We will march into the sea and out again... - What? He will lead the march? Patches isn't one to lead men into battle, but if he were to be the one blowing a certain horn, a horn that no mortal can blow....

• We will ride seahorses... - Seahorses? Aurane Waters (bastard of House Velaryon) whose sigil is a seahorse. After he built a fleet of ships with Lannister gold, he made off with them and no one knows where to. It is rumored by Nymella Toland of Dorne that there is a fleet of pirate ships in a harbor in the Stepstones commanded by a Pirate King that calls himself 'Lord of the Waters'. Hinting that this is where Aurane Waters has taken the fleet. But it may have been a ruse. When Arya is talking to the captain of the Titan's Daughter he tells her "We saw a dozen pirate ships making north as we rounded Crackclaw Point..." Why are there 'pirate ships' headed North? (I'm still re-reading so I might have missed where they were coming from) Also there is another possibility about the seahorses. They might be horses from Manderly. He told Davos that he was well prepared for battle and was willing to side with Stannis if Davos completes a task. Lord Manderly stated that he "...still command more heavy horse than any other lord north of the Neck..." So perhaps seahorses are horses from House Manderly?

• ...And mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh - So more than one female upon seeing Patches and his army coming will blow their seashells in response, as an alert.

Ok I noticed a theme going on. Blowing horns, riding seahorses, marching. Sounds like a battle to me. And Patchface has bloody lips like he blew a horn of some importance.

• Merman feast on starfish soup, and all the serving men are crabs - So if you re-arrange it, all of the crabs will be serving up the starfish soup for the Mermen to feast upon. The crabs are responsible for delivering it up, and the Mermen finish them off. "All" of the crabs will serve the Mermen. So they will unite in order to utterly defeat the Starfish. I'm not what it means at all but here's my crackpot theory that I only half- believe...Ok first, what if the Mermen were the Manderlys. Too easy I know but please hear me out. Now for the crabs. Houses Borrell, the white spider crab, is sworn to House Sunderland whose overlord is House Arryn. Celtigar, the red crabs, are sworn to Dragonstone, so they are for Stannis. So they will unite to serve Manderly (which might happen if Davos completes his quest). The crabs will somehow be able to offer up Starfish soup for the taking. The only Starfish reference of any importance is of large table in the shape of a starfish. This starfish table sat in the Grey King's Hall on Nagga's hill. The ironborn sworn to the Iron King would all feast at this table. (sort of like King's Arthur's round table). The table and throne are long gone, however the ironborn still go to Nagga's hill to choose their Iron King. So even though the table is gone, they still meet where the table once sat to 'hold court' so to speak. So what if the the ironborn are the Starfish and they are going to be turned into soup? And what is "soup" but lots of liquid with hunks of meat thrown in. That sounds like a major naval battle of some sort. Manderly is amassing a fleet and preparing for just such a battle. So they are almost ready for a feast, but need the crabs to......prepare the soup for them. How? There is a legend that House Celtigar, the red crabs, have in their possesion many treasures, including a horn that will summon krakens from the deep. What if the Iron Fleet is turned into soup by giant krakens, their own sigil. That would be ironic in epic porportions.

I'm not saying I believe it, but just thought I'd toss it out. I just read the part about the horn that summons krakens and went "Oooh, now I want to see that happen!"

• "Here we eat fish, under the sea, the fish eat us."

[Old Fishfoot]

• What if the Iron Fleet is turned into soup by giant krakens, their own sigil. That would be ironic in epic porportions.

That would be awesome.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Under the sea, the old fish eat the young fish. Up here the young fish teach the old fish.

A couple of quotes from Mitch Hedberg might be the ticket...

"Fish are always eating other fish. If fish could scream, the ocean would be loud as shit. You would not want to submerge your head. Nothing but fish going, 'Ahhh, f#*k! I thought I looked like that rock!"

"On fishing shows they always throw the fish back. They don't want to eat the fish, they just want to make it late for something. 'Where were you? I got caught. Liar! Let me see the inside of your lip."

[Margaret Ballinger]

"On fishing shows they always throw the fish back. They don't want to eat the fish, they just want to make it late for something. 'Where were you? I got caught. Liar! Let me see the inside of your lip."

I'm not sure about the half-baked crackpot idea I had, but I thought big krakens taking down ships would be something I would want to see. And throw in all the dead things in the water like dead marine animals and sailors coming up as wights too. A big zombie whale, or a pack of zombie dolphins.

I love your post! My dad would always toss the fish back too. He says he's just "exercising them."

[Firiel Hiren]

Patchface has not used house sigils to represent families or people in either the red wedding prophecy:

"Fool's Blood, king's blood, blood on the maiden's thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye, aye, aye."

or the one assumed to be about Sansa and her hairnet:

"The merwives wear nennymoans in their hair and weave gowns of silver seaweed, I know, I know."

I also notice that if the second half of this one is about Davos getting reading lessons from Maester Pylos then he is referring to both of them as fish:

"Under the sea, the old fish eat the young fish. Up here the young fish teach the old fish."

I think both his references to the white crow and the shadows and dead dancing are exactly what he sees in his prophecies.

He is different from the other people in the stories that tell the future as he seems to do it spontaneously and constantly. He never really seems to be out of his dreamseeing mode yet he is not asleep, or using a glass candle or tasting blood or looking in a fire. If his state of mind could be interpreted as constantly asleep then I would say it is closest to dreaming but he is also a fool and uses standard fool tactics to try to disarm situations that are potentially stressful such as he tried to disrupt Cressen's suicide and attempted murder, and he fell in a snowbank when he met the giant and jumped up to volunteer for a mission that everyone said was suicidal making everyone laugh. He just says things that occur to him as he stumbles around and uses "under the sea" as a frame of reference to what he sees not to mean any time or place in specific.

I think he is creepy for sure but that people are over-interpreting his statements and applying the way that one seer predicts to him which isn't going to work. Until one of his other statements is more convincingly linked to a house sigil I just can't buy it.

He hasn't done anything wrong, he has in fact been the only one to befriend a lonely little girl with a terrible facial scar/deformity. I would argue he actually tried to help in all those conditions where something bad was going to happen and I don't think it is fair to consider Melisandre's warning as factual when she wants to burn people who don't fit into her scheme. After all, Mel saw Jon surrounded by skulls too. The blood on the lips could be anything from Patchface saying something that ends in blood to Patchface being poisoned or having a "red smile".

Additionally, I think when Patchface says: "Clever bird, Clever Man, Clever Fool" he is saying "Clever Raven, Clever Pylos, Clever Cressen". I think he foresees Cressen being forced to wear his fools hat that night.

I stand by my interpretation of the feast for now, the only people to be referred to as "Stars" are the Poor Fellows. If we are to assume Sansa is the Merwife in the Nennymoons quote then obviously the House sigil is out the window or she would be a Manderly.

[Maybelle]

I have no clue what the prophesy means as a whole but i am sure that “Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black,” Patchface sang somewhere. “I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”refers to the dragon glass candles...... anyone have any theories about how it could tie in?

Seems to me, "under the sea," has some connection to the citadel (where the white ravens come from) and the candles would go with that.

[Margaret Ballinger]

I just thought of something last nite. You know when you're trying to sleep and your brain goes.....nope, I'm bored, so let's think of random stuff. :p

I just kept thinking "Under the sea" over and over. lol. I even sang the Little Mermaid song I think. I shouldn't drank that soda so close to bedtime.

But a thought came to me,

It's not in the sea, it's under it - like being beyond the sea.

Across the sea?

[Blazfemur]

Patchface - the only fool, that is legitimately more than what he appears to be.

...and Moonboy, for all i know.

[Blazfemur]

While I used to think Patchface's prophecies might have come to him in dreams, which would imply that "under the sea" means "when i'm dreaming, I see...", a lot of what he says falls into context with what's immediately going on about him. This makes me think he gets his visions, waking. Maybe the brain damage he endured while nearly drowning, ignited his abilities. Kind of like when someone goes blind, all their other senses heighten, kind of thing.

"Clever bird, clever man, clever clever fool.." - He's blatantly telling you he knows things. He's basically confessing, that there's more to him, in fact repeating "clever" for himself could blatantly mean he insinuates he's smarter, or knows more, than even the Maester.

"Under the sea, no one wears hats." - That's pretty prophetic, if the theory that king's landing and the iron throne get destroyed comes true. No more crowns, no more kings. There will be no more iron throne, you heard it here.

"In the dark the dead are dancing." - This is chilling. At Alys Karstarks wedding, she and Jon reminisce and she asks him to dance, while everyone else around them are dancing. I would take this phrase as "In the dark (unknowing to what's coming), the dead (everyone here at the wall will die) are dancing (presently dancing at Alys' wedding)." This theory leads to the phrase below:

"Under the sea, the crows are as white as snow. - The Others/Whitewalkers finally hit the wall, and destroy it, and the night's watch (the crows) resurrect as white walkers.

"I will lead it. We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.." - I hate to say it, but the Night's Watch blows their horn 3 times for Others/White Walkers. Im not saying every prophecy that ends in oh, oh, oh, is a nod to the actions of the nights watch, but this kinda fits for this particular phrase. I wonder if Patchface thinks himself as dead, after his experience under the water..

[Blazfemur]

My 2 biggest desires, for the next 2 books and in particular their epilogues, is that in one of them we hear it through either Patchface, or The Ghost Of High Hill.

Through Patchface, we could have a recollection of his drowning, perhaps he experienced a scenario not unlike when someone has a near-death experience, they recall their entire lives beforehand. Maybe he experienced the opposite, and saw future events in that instant. Or they're dreams. I do want to believe that his near-death experience sparked the ability to see these prophecies. It'd be sick if he was a greenseer like Jojen.

My other desire would be an epilogue through the eyes of The Ghost of High Hill. She could single-handedly reveal the tragedy at summerhall, why rhaegar was always depressed/sad, and if he paid her in music (as barristan said rhaegar often went ot summerhall with his harp). She could very well have witnessed the Tower Of Joy, or at least predicted something there, as well as the mystery of the knight of the laughing tree.

[Margaret Ballinger]

My 2 biggest desires, for the next 2 books and in particular their epilogues, is that in one of them we hear it through either Patchface, or The Ghost Of High Hill.

Through Patchface, we could have a recollection of his drowning, perhaps he experienced a scenario not unlike when someone has a near-death experience, they recall their entire lives beforehand. Maybe he experienced the opposite, and saw future events in that instant. Or they're dreams. I do want to believe that his near-death experience sparked the ability to see these prophecies. It'd be sick if he was a greenseer like Jojen.

My other desire would be an epilogue through the eyes of The Ghost of High Hill. She could single-handedly reveal the tragedy at summerhall, why rhaegar was always depressed/sad, and if he paid her in music (as barristan said rhaegar often went ot summerhall with his harp). She could very well have witnessed the Tower Of Joy, or at least predicted something there, as well as the mystery of the knight of the laughing tree.

I agree! Also in an interview GRRM said that he put in certain clues to a mystery that he was planning on revealing the answer to in book 6, but people had it figured out right when book 2 came out. I think he was talking about was Jon's parentage. If so, then in the next book hopefully we will learn more details about Robert's Rebellion. I would love to hear more about the Ghost of the High Heart and Summerhall.

I also agree about the Iron Throne. They each had their own kingdom before the Targs moved in, and it seems they are each trying to declare themselves as independant powers again. When the crown is corrupt and weak the people will rise up against it. Also twice now in the show they have foreshadowed the throne room destroyed and abandoned with ash drifting down.

As for the Others, I don't know if the Wall will fall or not, but the last time they were defeated and it was before the Wall was even built. All the foreshadowing about the Winterfell crypts, how the ghosts down there are angry and restless now, the missing iron swords. There must always be a Stark.... I think it will involve Winterfell. I read another topic about the founding of Winterfell somewhere on the forums here - I can't find it again, grr.... How it could mean Winter-Fell as in that was the place where the Long Night ended. Also it was built on top of an area of thermal activity.

I do think Patches will blow a horn, I just don't know which one. There is dragonbinder, the horn of winter, and the one that house Celtigar is rumored to have that summons krakens. Is there any others I missed? If he will lead the march and the mermaid will blow their seashells in response, that might mean two horns will sound? I don't know. I'm just tossing out ideas.

[Blazfemur]

i would love to be reading that patchface blows the horn to summon krakens, and the kraken reaches up fromt he water and takes down a dragon mid-flight, dragging it to the watery depths

"Under the sea, dragons fly DOWN!"

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

i would love to be reading that patchface blows the horn to summon krakens, and the kraken reaches up fromt he water and takes down a dragon mid-flight, dragging it to the watery depths

"Under the sea, dragons fly DOWN!"

You know, Patchface is pretty clearly connected with the Drowned God. But I've also wondered if dragons are more natural swimmers than Martin has wanted to talk about so far. Smoke rising in bubbles, and flames of various colors... well, the colorful flames, anyway, are a prominent feature of dragon fire as described in The Princess And The Queen. And if dragons swim, it might explain some of the mystery behind the injured Sunfyre's ability to get to Dragonstone on one wing...

[attention horse]

So first post and all, yeah, yeah. Just wanted to share a thought I had about the line "mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming". I'm not sure if it's been suggested before, and I could be way off, this is my first time putting any serious thought into theory making. I'm also a bit rusty on the books, but whatever. Could the mermaid possibly reference the Greyjoys (Specifically Victarion), and the seashell being the dragon horn? Please, do tell me if that's been suggested before, or if it is implausible!

[l'invernostaarrivando]

Hi everyone, first time posting but I love to read this forum, so many interesting theories. I was just re-reading ASOS, I don't have the original chapter so I can't quote, but I've found something that may be interesting (I'm sorry if anyone noticed it before). The ship that bring Sansa away from KL has a triton with a crown that blows in a seashell as figurehead. This made me think about Patches sentence: " Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh"

However Patches says this sentence after Sansa's escape but could the sentence be related with the ship itself? Any ideas?

[Sam with Hooters]

Ah, now all I want is a Walker looking at the heroes and boasting "This isnt even my final form!!"

Only if he then transforms to Level 4 Puddle and proclaims "I could be defeated by a sponge! It wouldn't even have to be an EVIL sponge!"