R+L=J v.27

[Jem]

That has always bothered me, too. Why would Ned allow Jon to take the black? It is true that Jon is the one who wanted to join the Night's Watch, but Ned not only allowed it, but thought it for the best. However, Jon's decision is not really his decision if he does not know the truth--the whole truth. If he is the son of R+L, he had the right to know the truth and make a decision based on that and not omissions and rumors.

I agree that Ned was not honorable in allowing Jon to join the Night's Watch without telling him his parental history (whatever it may be). Ironically, Ned found it honorable to search for the truth of Robert's children, legitimate and illegitimate.

I feel that Ned let Jon go to the Wall simply as a stop-gap measure. After all Jon was there as a volunteer, not as a condemned man. After his period of training he was free to choose to take his vow or to leave. I think that Ned thought that he would go to KL, get Robert sorted, and then head back North and maybe make more permanent arrangements for his children, including Jon.

It was convenient and expedient for Ned that Jon decided so quickly to go to the Wall because Ned then didn't have to upset Cat by leaving Jon at Winterfell. Sure it may be dishonourable (in a minor sort of way), but I bet Ned let out a sigh of relief thanks to the breathing space Jon had given him.

I am really under the impression that Ned didn't think Jon would want to stay at the Wall, but it was just a place for him to be for a couple of months.

[Bushido]

Actually,Ned thinks that even in NW a bastard can go far,and this idea seems to push him towards accepting Jon going away. He wants for him high position.

Note that the last time Ned thinks of Jon he feels shame. I have always thought that Ned was devastated he gave Jon the life of a bastard.

[The Snowman]

Jon is too central to the storyline, are we just going to have Mel at the POV at the Wall? :shocked:

Actually,Ned thinks that even in NW a bastard can go far,and this idea seems to push him towards accepting Jon going away. He wants for him high position.

Note that the last time Ned thinks of Jon he feels shame. I have always thought that Ned was devastated he gave Jon the life of a bastard.

Indeed he does and I do believe there is something going on with that Raven. He mutters some pretty weird stuff at times like the King! King! at Jon. Think it would be a bit cliché if the 'bastard' of the storyline became the king or KITN but I'd be totally okay with that. But I can see the the NW just dying after two assassination attempts on the last two LC of the NW, not a good rep. Rickon seems to be in the best position to take back the North and reckon if Jon survives the Ides of Marsh and co and the coming war I could see him settling as perhaps the hand of the king/queen, creating a seat for himself on the gift with the wildings or simply back on the wall with all his supporters (if the wall hasn't fallen by then) Could you imagine the BOOM across the north and perhaps further that would create

[Bushido]

Not just King!King! but also "King.Jon Snow".

It is believed that raven is warged by Bloodraven.

[Ygrain]

That has always bothered me, too. Why would Ned allow Jon to take the black? It is true that Jon is the one who wanted to join the Night's Watch, but Ned not only allowed it, but thought it for the best. However, Jon's decision is not really his decision if he does not know the truth--the whole truth. If he is the son of R+L, he had the right to know the truth and make a decision based on that and not omissions and rumors.

I agree that Ned was not honorable in allowing Jon to join the Night's Watch without telling him his parental history (whatever it may be). Ironically, Ned found it honorable to search for the truth of Robert's children, legitimate and illegitimate.

Frankly, I wouldn't have told him, either, for various reasons. Safety, his own and everyone else's involved, and also for his mental health. He's fourteen, pretty self-entitled and already embittered enough over being a bastard - the secret would poison his soul and possibly even drove him to something very rash and unwise. With these two reasons combined, I'd say that Jon's right is effectively overriden by the right of the rest of the Westeros not to be bothered by another civil war (yeah, ironically, it started, anyway)

[Baelor Blackfyre]

I've always wondered whether they meant to have Benjen tell Jon the truth before he took the vows, but then Benjen went missing instead.

I was just rereading through Clash today and came across this quote.

"Yes," said Jon, "but...what if..."

"...he's dead?" Mormont asked, not unkindly.

Jon nodded, reluctantly.

"Dead," the raven said. "Dead. Dead."

I thought this was very interesting. Assuming that Bloodraven does warg into Mormont's raven; to occasionally try and push Jon in the right direction, influence him, or help him. Maybe it's possible Bloodraven knows that Benjen is dead. And he's trying to tell them. Hmm...

And in the paragraph before this, Mormont says, "Maester Aemon thinks you clever." Aemon and Bloodraven knew each other. Lived during the same time. And I'm pretty sure served the Night's Watch at the same time? (Can anyone confirm this?) I wonder if Aemon knew that he could warg. Hmm...

So many mysteries...damn you Martin. You got me pondering the tiniest details.

[Dr. Pepper]

I'm not saying it wasn't honorable or that it wasn't the best thing he could do, but absolutely honorable? Not at all. If Lyanna wanted him to support his claim and he didn't do that, that's not honorable to her memory, like I said. If we're talking honor and justice as abstract concepts, is it honorable to support a man who was an absolutely horrible and unfair king and his allies, a family known for their pragmatic cruelty, just because said man was your childhood bff? Absolutely not.

Again, I'm not arguing against his decision, just against people's habit of painting each and every choice Eddard has ever made in the most honorable light possible. He's not perfect, that's all I'm saying.

I don't think Ned is the most perfect, honorable soul in all of Westeros. I just think that in this decision, he acted as honorably as any person could. I think it's comparable to Jaime killing the pyromancer and Aerys. More lives were spared.

That has always bothered me, too. Why would Ned allow Jon to take the black? It is true that Jon is the one who wanted to join the Night's Watch, but Ned not only allowed it, but thought it for the best. However, Jon's decision is not really his decision if he does not know the truth--the whole truth. If he is the son of R+L, he had the right to know the truth and make a decision based on that and not omissions and rumors.

I agree that Ned was not honorable in allowing Jon to join the Night's Watch without telling him his parental history (whatever it may be). Ironically, Ned found it honorable to search for the truth of Robert's children, legitimate and illegitimate.

I did find it ironic that Ned searched for the truth about Robert's children, and I don't think it was honorable. Robert had accepted Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen as his own, just as Ned took Jon Snow on as his own. Joffrey's rule might have turned out to be disastrous anyway, but we'll never know.

I have to admit, I will probably never be convinced that Ned keeping Jon's parentage from him wasn't the most honorable thing to do considering adoption runs strong in my family. To me, Ned taking Jon to raise as his own son makes it explicit that Ned intended to raise him as such, not raise him as a potential heir to the throne. He intended for Jon to make decisions based on being the bastard son of Ned Stark, not based on being the possible legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. To use an example, my mother's adoptive parents raised her to be their daughter and make life decisions based on that, not to make decisions based on what her biological parents would have raised her to be.

[The Snowman]

I think we all have to remember when Jon was born that the land had just ousted all of the Targaryans from the Kingdoms and at the time of AGOT the realm was fine with Baratheon rule. If he is R+L then it wouldn't matter because Robert wanted all the Targs dead and if he found out Jon was one then it would have been very interesting, seeing as Ned would not want him killed and as shown in AGOT, Robert has a very fiery temper when roused and could condone pretty much anything.

Anyway if he was told he was R+L then he might have been allowed at winterfell but he would still be, in the eyes of the powers of westeros, a bastard. His claim to the Iron Throne was the same as Viserys and Danaerys' claims. The Targaryans are gone from Westeros, this revelation of being Lyanna and Rhaegar's son only becomes relevant and powerful news after the War of the Five Kings, the matter of 'Aegon' landing and forging his own kingdom and then the factor of perhaps being Robb's heir to the North. All of those culminating factors make R+L=J important.

Also maybe we just want to know who Jon's mother/parents are once and for all haha :laugh:

[Thendel]

There's polygamy. Also, if it's meant to be important, GRRM will have some way figured out to prove it. Wylla or Howland might know, or Bloodraven ("King! King!"), or the septon who performed the marriage (who do we know who's a septon and also on the Riverlands circuit around Harrenhal, where a lot of people think Lyanna was staying when she was "abducted"?).

Boom. But isn't Meribald illiterate? I know he knows most of the words in the book that matter, but would that suffice for Rhaegar? Moreover, I think his part in the story is done.

[FrozenFire3]

I don't think the point is "Why did Ned allow Jon to go to the wall?"... it's "Why didn't he tell him of his true lineage?". Jon is free to do what he will with his life and Ned is right to let him choose. It is his right. Yet, he should have revealed to him of his parentage. Jon's choice is not a real choice now, is it? If he had known the truth, would he have chosen the same? Maybe he would have, or maybe he wouldn't. He wronged him greatly and determined his future choices. Even if it was meant for Ben to tell him all, it would have been too late. As it is too late now if Benjen will ever show up again. Jon is a sworn brother and nothing can change that until the day he dies... if he dies and comes back, reborn from the ashes, well maybe that could change everything... ;)

[Dr. Pepper]

I don't think the point is "Why did Ned allow Jon to go to the wall?"... it's "Why didn't he tell him of his true lineage?". Jon is free to do what he will with his life and Ned is right to let him choose. It is his right. Yet, he should have revealed to him of his parentage. Jon's choice is not a real choice now, is it? If he had known the truth, would he have chosen the same? Maybe he would have, or maybe he wouldn't. He wronged him greatly and determined his future choices. Even if it was meant for Ben to tell him all, it would have been too late. As it is too late now if Benjen will ever show up again. Jon is a sworn brother and nothing can change that until the day he dies... if he dies and comes back, reborn from the ashes, well maybe that could change everything... ;)

Jon's choice is a real choice because he was raised as Ned's son, not as his nephew. Any parental figure, no matter biological or adoptive, has a hand in determining their children's future choices. I don't know why it would be so important for Jon to have known that he was basically adopted. Would anyone be concerned about Ned not telling Jon if he was actually the son of Brandon and a whore? Is it just because potential power and riches are involved in his biological parentage that it becomes important?

[LadyMary]

What Ned did, in my humble opinion, was very honourable. As I said in a previous post, this is the only time Ned chose family over honour. Lying for your whole life to your wife, children, friends isn't particularly honourable but it proved to be one of the most honourable choices/things he ever made/did. He protected this child in memory of his sister and to fulfil a promise made to her.

Ned chose his family over his honor at other times as well. He confessed to a crime he didn't commit in order to keep his daughters safe in Kings Landing, for which he would have forfeited his title and lands and been banished to the Night's Watch but Joffrey decided to behead him as a traitor instead.

Now, as for his "stubborness" in not wanting to tell Jon who his mother/parents were... that is something else entirely. I believe it was wrong of him not to tell him of his true lineage before he went to the wall. This way, he deprived Jon of a choice, a true choice. When he joins the night's watch, from that day on, Jon will be forever obliged to fulfil his oath. He is forever bound by it."Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come."

Of course Jon chose to go to the wall, but would he have chosen differently, had he known the truth?

I'll have to respectfully disagree with this. Ned thinks to himself: "Some secrets are too dangerous to tell even those you love and trust." He didn't tell his own wife that he lied about being unfaithful to her even though the lie dishonored himself and shamed his wife, because he believed the lie more honorable than leaving Jon vulnerable by having his secret out. He knew exactly how Robert felt about Rhaegar and the rest of the Targaryens and he had reason to fear Robert's wrath against him for protecting the last viable claimant to the Targaryen dynasty. He may have calculated that it was safer to keep the secret even from Jon, than to risk letting it slip out to someone who could use it against him. If Jon's existence threatened the safety of Ned's rule of the North and the destiny of his wife and children, Catelyn would have protected her own children by insisting that Ned give up Lyanna's son, even if Ned wouldn't have otherwise. I think there were just too many "what if's" that Ned couldn't answer and he chose the safest course even if it meant tarnishing his own reputation as an honorable man.

We can't possibly know if Jon would have chosen any other course if he'd known he was Lyanna's son instead of Ned's. I suppose he could have been placed as a foster at one of Ned's vassals or a squire to some knight, but the fact that he was Rhaegar's son would make him a target of Robert even though Rhaegar was long dead and the Targaryen dynasty ended. Robert took Rhaegar's actions (stealing Lyanna) personally and never got over it. Ned was loyal to Robert and wasn't going to wage war to take the throne for his sister's son, and as the son of Ned's sister Jon would have basically no claim on Winterfell with Robb, Bran, Rickon, Sansa and Arya ahead of him. His desire to be a ranger like his uncle, and the long history of Starks manning the Night's Watch probably looked like the best choice to a young Northern boy who craved adventure. He wouldn't be the only noble-born man who chose that occupation. Why should Ned dissuade him when there really were no other options and he needed it settled quickly because he was leaving Winterfell to travel to Kings Landing?

[Lady Octarina]

I was just rereading through Clash today and came across this quote.

"Yes," said Jon, "but...what if..."

"...he's dead?" Mormont asked, not unkindly.

Jon nodded, reluctantly.

"Dead," the raven said. "Dead. Dead."

I thought this was very interesting. Assuming that Bloodraven does warg into Mormont's raven; to occasionally try and push Jon in the right direction, influence him, or help him. Maybe it's possible Bloodraven knows that Benjen is dead. And he's trying to tell them. Hmm...

And in the paragraph before this, Mormont says, "Maester Aemon thinks you clever." Aemon and Bloodraven knew each other. Lived during the same time. And I'm pretty sure served the Night's Watch at the same time? (Can anyone confirm this?) I wonder if Aemon knew that he could warg. Hmm...

So many mysteries...damn you Martin. You got me pondering the tiniest details.

Indeed, that could be the case. I was re-reading some of Jon's chapters in various books and I also had the impression the raven tries to push him to certain directions, but there was something else: at some points it seemed the raven was actually mocking them. I do think Bloodraven has a strange sense of humor and that shows occasionally. The "Dead. Dead. Dead" could be that, but also just him saying the truth - after all, even if Benjen is Coldhands, like many (myself included) believe, he is still dead-ish.

[Budj]

We know the raven can mimick words. Not all words come from BR - the question is was BR saying dead. dead. dead. or was it just the raven repeating what it had heard?

Also, factoring into Ned's decision about Jon. He couldn't speak of it. If anyone found out they would have used Jon as leverage to win favor with the throne. I think Ned was going to wait until Jon said his vows and let him know..yes...that sucks...but while Robert was King, Jon was never safe as a Targ unless he had forsaken everything in his name for the NW oath and Ned's family would not have been safe either. Now that Robert is dead we can have this what-if discussion and dig into Ned's decisions.

I think it's only fair to include the situation where if Robert was already dead what would Ned have done? In that case I think he would have told his son about his parents prior to his swearing of the oath.

[Maxpey]

I'm a proponent of the theory, but from what I've seen from the latest threads:

1. Ned was in love with Ashara and fathered Jon (of which we have no indications other than hearsay).

2. R+L=J is too "obvious" (which is odd for a theory that about 80-90% of readers never pick up on before reading these boards, and which has only be contructed by gathering small indication that together frame a larger picture).

3. Ned refers to Robb and Jon as "my sons" once in front of his household in Game.

4. Jon doesn't have the Targaeryen looks.

5. Jon looks exactly like Ned.

6. The blue rose in the Wall merely symbolizes a Stark, not Lyanna and her son in particular.

Needless to say, I remain convinced.

I would add a couple more "facts" which are admittedly entirely subjective:

7. Ned thinks of Jon as a bastard (he wouldn't if Jon really was the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna);

8. Ned gets irate when Catelyn asks him about Ashara Dayne and demands to know where she heard the rumor. She tells him that the soldiers he returned with from the war were responsible (Recall that Ned led Robert to believe that Wylla was Jon's mother, so his reaction upon hearing Catelyn say that other people are spreading contrary rumors is curious);

9. When Ned discovers that Robert is near death, he acts under the belief that Stannis is the rightful heir. The idea that Jon is the rightful heir never crosses his mind.

[Maxpey]

I don't think Ned intended for Jon to claim the throne, ever.

The fact of the matter is, Jon couldn't stay in Winterfell once Ned decided to go to KL. Cat didn't accept him. And Jon himself wanted to go to the wall. Additionally, at the wall Jon could never be a threat to Robert's rule, so he would be safe from his wrath if the truth ever came out. All in all, Ned was dealt a bad hand and had to decide when Jon decided for himself and Ned had to accept that it was a better solution than most alternatives.

I have a crazy theory that Lyanna made Ned promises two things when it came to Jon, one he kept, and one he didn't.

I think Lyanna made Ned promise that he would keep Jon safe, but I also think she made him promise that he would tell Jon about his true identity when the time came.

This theory assumes that Lyanna willingly went along with Rhaegar's belief in the PWWP. As such, Lyanna would have told Ned that Jon would eventually need to know that he alone was fated to protect the realm against the Others.

Unfortunately, Ned was so afraid of Robert's wrath if he found out the truth that he could not bring himself to tell Jon, despite his promise to Lyanna that he would. His guilt over his failure to keep his word is one of the reasons why Ned was haunted by Lyanna's promises for the last 14 years.

[Bushido]

In response to Maxpey and Thendel.

1. We don't know much about this,so no room for it to be used as an argument.

2. Obvious? Rather the opposite.

3. He calls them "my sons" because in the eyes and the mind of the household they ARE his sons.

4.Many Targs don't have the typical dragon blood features. Jon favours his mother's looks,just like Baelor Breakspear or Rhaegar's daughter. Besides,it may be that Jon's dark eyes hide some extra shade...

5.Exactly? No. They both carry typical Stark features.

6.Blue Rose draws a direct connection to Bael the Bard's story,kidnapped daughter and the son that will carry on the noble family's name. Lyanna loved blue roses,and we have the Harenhall crown,and the petals that spill out of her palm,when dying. And blue roses that have thorns - in Ned's nightmares. (pain connected to them)

7.Jon is a bastard = he has a life of a bastard.

8.He gets irritated because she asks about Jon.

9.Stannis is the rightful heir,on the basis of the conquest. He own his leige to Stannis.

[Budj]

I think I agree with most of your post, Maxpey, my one issue being that I think Ned planned on telling him and to fulfill that promise but...he forgot to plan for the case he got his head chopped off and never got to go back North...failing Jon and Lyanna.

[Budj]

4.Many Targs don't have the typical dragon blood features. Jon favours his mother's looks,just like Baelor Breakspear or Rhaegar's daughter. Besides,it may be that Jon's dark eyes hide some extra shade...

Maybe a certain light-bringing sword will bring out the purple shades ;)

[Bushido]

Oh,I always hope :D

I got the idea of Bloodraven's preference to smoke colour. Smoke being gray mottled with black. *mottled with violet...or indigo*