mitch176 Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Ok so being on this website I feel I can safely assume everyone here has a love for the SoIaF novels, a love which I obviously share with you. So I've taken it to write an article as to why George R.R Martin's series of novels, or one of the novels, should be included in the Great Canon alongside other greats which are already in there e.g John Steinbeck, Arthur Miller, Shakespeare etc. So using you guys as somewhat of a focus group what are your thoughts? Why should or shouldn't he be included? I feel the obvious arguments are that the Canon needs to move with the times and with the new audiences and that you can take so many meanings away from his novels etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. E Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Oh, no...no, not the canon. Anything but the canon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zap Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 As much as I love A Song of Ice and Fire, I don't think that it belongs in the canon of literature. Martin's novels are really interesting, imaginative and full of great characters, but that doesn't place him on the level of literary greats such as Shakespeare or Pushkin. Obviously this is all very subjective and one can argue that GRRM's works hold much more meaning for them than Hamlet or Eugene Onegin but I personally would consider as part of the classics only works that contain excellent writing and strong themes. Out of all the fantasy and science fiction writers that I have read (I must admit that they are not many), I would place only Tolkien and Le Guin in the canon of world literature. I know that a lot of people dislike Tolkien's writing style but I personally really enjoy it and I think that The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion, at least, are a lot stronger thematically than A Song of Ice and Fire. Yes, Martin does examine important issues such as power or war but they are not the main focus of his work. His purpose is to tell a great story but that story, in my opinion, does not attempt to convey a message. Great fiction such as Don Quixote, Eugene Onegin or Oscar Wilde's plays is often emblematic of its age and A Song of Ice and Fire does not really tell us much about today, nor does it contain superior writing to that of many other books published today.I'm sure someone's going to rip me to pieces for what I've said but it's just my personal opinion and, unlike some critics such as Harold Bloom, I wouldn't dare to categorically state all the works that should appear in a possible canon of literature, but I do think that there are some books out there that are more important than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 There being several better fantasy series and books around is one fairly strong reason not to include it, I guess. One would have to wait a bit longer to see whether it merits inclusion on influential terms, but I doubt it tbh.That said, a person can argue the parameters of the canon all day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitch176 Posted November 29, 2012 Author Share Posted November 29, 2012 Ok Zap, let's talk Tolkein, I'd love to have some cross-arguments going... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zap Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Okay, as polishgenius has already mentioned, one way to be included in the canon is on the basis of influence. It would be silly to claim that Tolkien started the modern fantasy genre considering that both William Morris and George MacDonald wrote classic works of fantasy decades before him. However, the impact of The Lord of the Rings on fantasy is undeniable. There have been many imitations of Tolkien's classic book and even Martin, whose work is, in my opinion, so different from Tolkien's in terms of atmosphere, has stated that he has been strongly influenced by Tolkien.Another reason to include Tolkien in the canon is the thematic complexity of his works. The Hobbit is a children's book but The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion are both thematically complex works that examine themes such as temptation, redemption, bravery, destiny, the environment and the importance of the individual. As someone who spent 2 years on Lord of the Rings Plaza, one of main forums dedicated to Tolkien's work, I can definitely say that there is a lot to discuss in his books. Furthermore, even to this day many books are published every year to discuss various aspects of Tolkien's world and the scholar Tom Shippey has even published a book with the title J. R. R. Tolkien: Author of the Century.Finally, and this is probably the most controverial point of my post, Tolkien should be included because of the beauty of his writing. I think that Tolkien's style, even though some find it overly florid, is elegant and capable of portraying both events and landscapes in an incredibly beautiful way. I am also in a minority that considers Tolkien's poetry very evocative. With regard to this, though, there is absolutely no way for me to convince you that Tolkien's style is superior to Martin's as this is a personal preference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitch176 Posted November 29, 2012 Author Share Posted November 29, 2012 Thank you very much Zap, while I too love and adore Tolkien's work I must confess there are some points made there that I've never considered. Thank you very much for the points you have made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zap Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 You're welcome. If you're interested in the classics I recommend Italo Calvino's book Why Read the Classics? I haven't read it myself but I've heard it's very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PetrusOctavianus Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Is Conan Canon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 canonicity outside of scripture is fairly low stakes. mostly, it's just a debate about what should always be available in an undergraduate curriculum. kinda pointless these days, after mass/popular culture & cultural studies programs have blown the doors off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zap Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 PetrusOctavianus, maybe fantasy canon but definitely not the canon of world literature.sologdin, I'm not sure I can agree with you. In my high school I had to study the Greek classics, Don Quixote, Hamlet and other classic works as part of my literature classes. I also had to study the classic works of Bulgarian literature. I know that in a lot of western countries education is probably more open but I'd wager that in many post-socialist countries the only things that students are allowed to discuss and write on in literature classes are the classics. Sure, you can read whatever you want in your free time but you're bound to get exposed, to a greater or lesser extent, to Shakespeare, Dante and other classic writers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 agreed that secondary education will typically have lists of required reading as well as banned books. heavily politicized, based in canonicity, but not completely overlapping it. what are the classics of bulgarian literature, incidentally? sounds kickass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. E Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 what are the classics of bulgarian literature, incidentally? sounds kickass.Bulgaria, Bulgaria, my Turgid Flame Burns for Thee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Ah humanities, your silly infighting over your tiny territory never ceases to amuse me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 true, but A&H people have friends and get laid. by contrast, engineering and computer nerds reproduce by agamogenesis. ewwwwww. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 And b-schoolers get tons of ass while learning about Power Point - is that really the metric we should be using? ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolverine Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 We read The Hobbit in one of my high school english classes, does that count for anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry. Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 Ah humanities, your silly infighting over your tiny territory never ceases to amuse me.Pfft! If it weren't for the humanities, wouldn't you so-called "science guys" be busy with auguries? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cseresz.reborn Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 what are the classics of bulgarian literature, incidentally? sounds kickass. :thumbsdown: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melonica Stormborn Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 As much as I love and obsess over A Song of Ice and Fire, I haven't really considered it "canon" literature. To be fair, that may just be me having preconceived notions about what is "canon" literature - I usually consider works with either highly philosophical content or beautiful language to be "canon". A Song of Ice and Fire seems to be one step below either both criteria, but close. If it stands the test of time, then maybe that is when we should include it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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