Old Gods, cold gods and Starks: a Heretic re-read

[Little Wing]

So, Frey family reunion, does that make Jon Lightbringer, in your dynasty analogy?

[nanother]

Here's the first Ned chapter as promised. That's not saying we should stop discussing the previous ones, of course.

Eddard I (Chapter 4)

King Robert:

Speaking of giants (as Frey family reunion did), we meet one in this chapter, or at least memories of one. Ned about young Robert:

Six and a half feet tall, he towered over lesser men, and when he donned his armor and the great antlered helmet of his House, he became a veritable giant. He’d had a giant’s strength too, his weapon of choice a spiked iron warhammer that Ned could scarcely lift.

Anyhow, out of shape he might be, but

No sooner had those formalities of greeting been completed than the king had said to his host,

“Take me down to your crypt, Eddard. I would pay my respects.”

Ned loved him for that, for remembering her still after all these years.

The crypts:

They talk about late summer snows (which are common, but usually mild) and naked women on the way down. Well, Robert does. He shuts up once they reach the bottom of the stairs* and enter the crypt.

The crypt is dark, always cold, echoey, with the dead watching and listening.

“Your Grace,” Ned said respectfully. He swept the lantern in a wide semicircle. Shadows moved and lurched. Flickering light touched the stones underfoot and brushed against a long procession of granite pillars that marched ahead, two by two, into the dark. Between the pillars, the dead sat on their stone thrones against the walls, backs against the sepulchres that contained their mortal remains.“She is down at the end, with Father and Brandon.”

He led the way between the pillars and Robert followed wordlessly, shivering in the subterranean chill. It was always cold down here. Their footsteps rang off the stones and echoed in the vault overhead as they walked among the dead of House Stark. The Lords of Winterfell watched them pass. Their likenesses were carved into the stones that sealed the tombs. In long rows they sat, blind eyes staring out into eternal darkness, while great stone direwolves curled round their feet. The shifting shadows made the stone figures seem to stir as the living passed by.

Also:

The crypt continued on into darkness ahead of them, but beyond this point the tombs were empty and unsealed; black holes waiting for their dead, waiting for him and his children. Ned did not like to think on that.

I forgot about that. What a queer family. How many generations have they prepared for?

Trapped spirits:

By ancient custom an iron longsword had been laid across the lap of each who had been Lord of Winterfell, to keep the vengeful spirits in their crypts.

Could this be causing problems, as Feather Crystal thinks? Why are the Starks afraid of their own dead's spirits anyway? How do other families deal with their dead? How do the Starks do with the rest of their dead, for that matter? It's only the lodrs down here...

We know about the Tullys - that seems a safe and natural way. And we know about the wildlings - although we also know there are some graves in the Frostfangs...

It's also thought that the Others hate iron. Is there a connection?

Also, when did the First Men start using iron? Did they use some other method to imprison the spirits before?

Lyanna:

Robert thinks this is no fitting place for her - she should be allowed to be one with the nature. Ned states that she belongs here and she wanted to be here.

Then we hear about the promise:

He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it.

Blind eyes:

Like those of the dead direwolf (sans maggots) Mentioned on the way in and out as well. Blind eyes that are watching regardless.

They discuss the death of Jon Arryn, and then...

They started back down between the pillars. Blind stone eyes seemed to follow them as they passed.

Robert makes his offer for Ned to be his Hand on the way out.

"The king eats, they say, and the Hand takes the shit." He threw back his head and roared his laughter. The echoes rang through the darkness, and all around them the dead of Winterfell seemed to watch with cold and disapproving eyes.

And finally:

For a moment Eddard Stark was filled with a terrible sense of foreboding. This was his place, here in the north. He looked at the stone figures all around them, breathed deep in the chill silence of the crypt. He could feel the eyes of the dead. They were all listening, he knew. And winter was coming.

And that's coming from Ned, of all people...

Stark != nice:

As early as this, we get the hint that Starks of old were not like our Ned:

The oldest [iron swords] had long ago rusted away to nothing, leaving only a few red stains where the metal had rested on stone. Ned wondered if that meant those ghosts were free to roam the castle now. He hoped not. The first Lords of Winterfell had been men hard as the land they ruled. In the centuries before the Dragonlords came over the sea, they had sworn allegiance to no man, styling themselves the Kings in the North.

--

* seems like the idea of deeper levels came after this passage was written...

Robert was breathing heavily by the time they reached the bottom of the stairs, his face red in the lantern light as they stepped out into the darkness of the crypt.

Also, later Ned seems to refer to the guys with missing swords as 'the first Lords of Winterfell'. Later in the books we learn that the stairs go further down, to lower, older levels with more dead Starks, but at this point Martin might not have thought of that yet.

[Black Crow]

Not sure about the lower levels idea coming later, it could just simply be an entrance somewhere else on the current crypt level. That being said none of the descriptions of the crypts make sense. First there's the business of very long term preparation for the future residents, and then there's the lower levels themselves. Surely it ought to be the other way around, with an initial crypt at say basement level, and then as it fills up you either extend it lengthways or sideways, or if that isn't practical, dig deeper, although that in itself wouldn't be easy.

Instead not only are the lower levels older but there are more than one.

Now GRRM of course may simply not have thought through the implications set out in my initial paragraph, but the clear impression we get from this and later descriptions of the crypts is that Winterfell is sitting on top of a whole warren of caves and passages, not unlike the one Bran where Bran is currently learning to be a greenseer, and certainly not built by human hand.

[nanother]

Later, when Bran& co are hiding there, it's mentioned that those same stairs go deeper down, though.

I agree that the only way the layout of the crypts makes sense is if natural, or, in any case, pre-existing cavities are involved. Even then, it's slightly strange to start using the deeper ones first.

[Little Wing]

I agree with the crypts levels being there as natural pre-existing cavities. Did they use the lower levels due to some superstition about the dead rising? Or they are buried deeper to be closer to the roots in the earth? I'm just spit balling here, as Tyryan would say :wideeyed:

[Black Crow]

I'm not entirely convinced that there are too many Starks buried down there. Later when Bran is tripping about explaining who everybody is, there's a very clear sense that those buried on the upper level are the only Starks anybody knows anything about, especially as people are discouraged from going down deeper because its unsafe. Perhaps it is, but the danger doesn't come from collapsing roofs...

[Melifeather]

Also, later Ned seems to refer to the guys with missing swords as 'the first Lords of Winterfell'. Later in the books we learn that the stairs go further down, to lower, older levels with more dead Starks, but at this point Martin might not have thought of that yet.

It was an idea that I presented in Heresy that the title, "Lord of Winterfell" was closest to the present story. That Kings of Winter is the oldest title and most expansive, while King in the North came afterwards and suggests a smaller area, and Lord of Winterfell coming last after the King title was surrendered.

[nanother]

@Feather Crystal

If you read the quote carefully, it's clear that by 'first Lords of Winterfell' Ned meant the ones that 'styled themselves Kings in the North'. They were Lords of Winterfell as well as Kings. Now, whether he actually meant 'Kings in the North', or used it interchangeably with 'Kings of Winter', that's another question.

ETA: the whole passage I was referring to is the 2nd quote from the bottom

@Black Crow

Seeing that the oldest Starks lived long before written histories, it's not too surprising that nothing is known about them... Don't the Starks consider themselves the descendants of Bran the Builder? Who might or might not have been a real person...

I wonder if it's possible to figure out how long these 'known' Starks go back in time. Probably not.

[Black Crow]

There's certainly no suggestion that the ones Bran introduces include the Builder but he does refer to the hairy ones as Kings of Winter.

The impression we get is, as you say, that they are Starks of Winterfell, lords of Winterfell all the way through. The hairy, bearded ones were Kings of Winter and then the clean shaven ones Kings in the North, and latterly Wardens of the North.

[Lady Olenna]

When I did my first re-read a while back and I was trying to imagine the crypts, my mind went to the description of the walls of the castle being warm because of the hot springs.

Does this also apply to the crypts? In the description it says its cold so I assume probably not but it was one of those things that nagged at me because I don't understand the layout. I know it's a minor detail but I don't understand it.

[Little Wing]

On the subject of cold burning:

Fun Fact

Sounds completely contradictory doesn't it? Gliese 436b is 33 light-years from the Sun, and it orbits the red dwarf star Gliese 436.

Gliese 436b orbits its star so closely that the temperature on the surface stays at a constant 800°F (425°C). In spite is this, it is completely covered in solid water. How is this possible?

Just for fun :)

[nanother]

Posting Jon I to keep us roughly on schedule. As ever, no need to stop discussing the previous ones.

Jon I (Chapter 5)

Jon:

Jon is again proving to be perceptive, although perhaps slightly lead astray by his bitterness/jealousy. Or summerwine. In any case, he does misjudge Myrcella, as we find out later...although, to be fair, he doesn't have much to work with. This fits with what we saw from him in Bran's chapter (pointing out the fear in Gared's eyes, recognizing the direwolf and the symbolism), and his pup having his eyes opened early.

A bastard had to learn to notice things, to read the truth that people hid behind their eyes.

Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children

Ghost:

Stares down a grown dog three times his size :cool4:

Benjen watched Ghost with amusement as he ate his onion. “A very quiet wolf,” he observed.

“He’s not like the others,” Jon said. “He never makes a sound. That’s why I named him Ghost. That, and because he’s white. The others are all dark, grey or black.”

“There are still direwolves beyond the Wall. We hear them on our rangings.”

He is wary of Tyrion, put off by his acrobatic stunt, apparently.

Benjen:

Is baiting Jon for the Night's Watch, successfully. Although, then he tries to dissuade him from joining straight away - he thinks Jon should first learn what he'll be giving up if he does join.

“You don’t know what you’re asking, Jon. The Night’s Watch is a sworn brotherhood. We have no families. None of us will ever father sons. Our wife is duty. Our mistress is honor.”

“A bastard can have honor too,” Jon said. “I am ready to swear your oath.”

“You are a boy of fourteen,” Benjen said. “Not a man, not yet. Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up.”

“I don’t care about that!” Jon said hotly.

“You might, if you knew what it meant,” Benjen said. “If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son.”

Jon felt anger rise inside him. “I’m not your son!”

Benjen Stark stood up. “More’s the pity.” He put a hand on Jon’s shoulder. “Come back to me after you’ve fathered a few bastards of your own, and we’ll see how you feel.”

Does he speak from personal experience? Did he learn too late, after making the commitment? Was he pressured? Also, I recall theories about the italicised part saying that Jon is really Benjen's son...I don't think that's really likely, but am a bit confused what he meant by that...

The Starks and the Night's Watch:

Jon thinks he has no choice but to join the Watch, but there doesn't seem to be any sort of external pressure or (living) tradition in the background, only his own ambition. He doesn't think either of the younger Stark boys would be compelled to join either.

He had thought on it long and hard, lying abed at night while his brothers slept around him. Robb would someday inherit Winterfell, would command great armies as the Warden of the North. Bran and

Rickon would be Robb’s bannermen and rule holdfasts in his name. His sisters Arya and Sansa would marry the heirs of other great houses and go south as mistress of castles of their own. But what place could a bastard hope to earn?

That doesn't mean there wasn't such a tradition, but if so then it's as good as forgotten now. Unless Benjen and Ned decided to end the tradition abruptly because of whatever happened around the time of the rebellion?

Tyrion:

This is a beginning of what Jon will later call a friendship. Tyrion's advice will certainly prove useful. I wonder if Ghost's reaction foreshadows anything... I'd guess not: Jon's own reaction is fascination, Ghost's is wariness. I guess they both deal with Tyrion's eccentricity and unusual appearance in their own way here. Or possibly Ghost is expressing Jon's subconscious.

We do get an obvious bit of foreshadowing, though. (As in, obviously foreshadowing, not that it's obvious what it foreshadows.)

[Melifeather]

I understood the "mores the pity" to mean that Benjen would be proud to have Jon as his son and bastard versus being Ned's, or it would even be better to be his than being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

[nanother]

Thanks, yes, those are possible explanations. Also, I finally had the sense to google the phrase...I thought it was supposed to express "that makes the situation worse than it already was", but it seems to be used more in the sense of "oh, that's unfortunate". So, yeah, I guess it can just mean he's sorry Jon's not his son.

Edit: Also, he might mean that if Jon was his son he'd have the authority to forbid him to join the Watch. Not permanently, of course, just for now.

But then he does go and tell Maester Luwin about it :dunno:

[Dogpile]

Posting Jon I to keep us roughly on schedule. As ever, no need to stop discussing the previous ones.

The Starks and the Night's Watch:

Jon thinks he has no choice but to join the Watch, but there doesn't seem to be any sort of external pressure or (living) tradition in the background, only his own ambition. He doesn't think either of the younger Stark boys would be compelled to join either.

That doesn't mean there wasn't such a tradition, but if so then it's as good as forgotten now. Unless Benjen and Ned decided to end the tradition abruptly because of whatever happened around the time of the rebellion?

I don't think there was ever a tradition of Junior Starks being compelled to take the Black. We hear later that many junior Starks were given custody of the Wolf's Den to guard the approaches to the White Knife. I think the Starks just have a history of doing it like many of the other noble houses. (Shield Hall).

Jon does it because he thinks this is the most honorable solution to his "Now what am I going to do problem". That's why the less than honorable condition of the NW is such a blow to him later.

[Black Crow]

Thanks, yes, those are possible explanations. Also, I finally had the sense to google the phrase...I thought it was supposed to express "that makes the situation worse than it already was", but it seems to be used more in the sense of "oh, that's unfortunate". So, yeah, I guess it can just mean he's sorry Jon's not his son.

Yes, over this side of the water at least, "more's the pity" definitely means "if only" as in "its a pity that's not the case"

[EmmaoftheCanals]

Trapped spirits:

Could this be causing problems, as Feather Crystal thinks? Why are the Starks afraid of their own dead's spirits anyway? How do other families deal with their dead? How do the Starks do with the rest of their dead, for that matter? It's only the lodrs down here...

It's also thought that the Others hate iron. Is there a connection?

Also, when did the First Men start using iron? Did they use some other method to imprison the spirits before?

Maybe it prevents body's from being wighted. Or at least from rising as wights (sort of like how silver or a crucifix is supposed to keep a vampire in its coffin). But the question remains, why would the spirits be vengeful towards the Starks themselves... I also always thought it was weird, trapping the spirits in crypts instead of setting them free à la Tully.

[TheNorthernWarrior]

I'm not entirely convinced that there are too many Starks buried down there. Later when Bran is tripping about explaining who everybody is, there's a very clear sense that those buried on the upper level are the only Starks anybody knows anything about, especially as people are discouraged from going down deeper because its unsafe. Perhaps it is, but the danger doesn't come from collapsing roofs...

I assumed it meant those were the most recent Starks, i.e those of the past 500 years or so? The family supposedly goes back what 10,000 years to Bran the Builder? What would the average length of rule be, 10 years? that would make for 1,000 tombs. The Bolton's only bent the knee to the Starks 1000 years ago? Even from that time on there could be 100 tombs, and I didn't get the sense that they walked by more than a few dozen and certainly not hundreds. My sense was there several levels with a 100 or so tombs each, and were there even 50 on the current level? Its definitely not full yet. Clearly most of that history is gone, and there are just a few stories remaining. Bran knows the stories of these ones because they are the most recent, and within written history most likely. Also, think about it, if no one is able to access your tomb then no one is able to ask who you where or what your story was and so any memory of you would easily fade to nothing. I don't recall Bran pointing out Bran the Builders tomb, which he probably would have. Meaning they don't have access to it.

My impression of the crypts was that the stairs were leading down to different levels of naturally formed caves. They started at the bottom because well they were supposed to be the hardest toughest family in the hardest toughest region and it seemed like the bad ass thing to do to be buried in a scary cave under your castle? Or maybe Winterfell is built on a former COTF complex, similar to the cave Bran is in now. So somewhere near the bottom there is a Weirwood throne room, COTF grave, other old interesting things etc. Maybe they were even friends with the COTF that had lived there, who taught them how to warg, engraved magic on the Wall and Winterfell, or and even helped save them from the long winter. Maybe helped them conquer the North in the first place, cause having warrior Direwolf pets and being able to have eyes and ears all over might just give you the edge you need over those Flaying Madman to north-east or the chain breaking giants to the North. So the first Starks wanted to be buried down there, close to friends entombed in their trees, or cause they just wanted to be close to a cool place. They start at the bottom and moved up, probably in unfinished/unreinforced natural caves. Hundreds (or thousands) of years go by, CoTF have left, magic has faded etc. so there is no actual need to go down there anymore and add a few cave ins, maybe even someones death as a result of one (and losing of original sword Ice) and they decide screw it lets move higher up and build real crypts and not just use a cave, we are too rich for that now anyway and we are becoming wimps who shave and that cave has weird scary stuff. So they build the top few levels of real crypts with a reinforced ceiling, smoothed floor, etc. and while they are at it also built a new keep cause the old one with Gargles all over a little too creepy now and maybe a new ring of outer walls. The lower levels either are inaccessible or just no longer needed and so are no longer visited, because after a few levels of boring modern crypts why would you keep going if you encounter an obstacle, like a partial cave in, since you've forgotten all the cool stuff down there anyway. So again same as I mentioned above, if you don't see these interesting things, weirwood thrones etc. then you don't ask questions and if no one is asking then no one is answering and the knowledge dies out unless it is written.

The iron sword over the tomb custom is very interesting. If you take the myth at face value, that its to keep the old Starks in their tombs then I guess the belief then is that otherwise they'd come back from the dead. So two questions, why are they coming back (died in battle vs the Others?) and why does Iron keep them buried (any ideas?). My other thought would be is that the current myth is wrong, as they don't seem to actually have a good track record of remembering stuff, regardless of the North Remembers motto. So maybe there is another reason to put the swords there. The most obvious other reason would be because they thought it armed them in after life, next life, post life, next world, whatever. Or maybe the old Starks would rise from the dead and the swords were put there not to stop it from happening, but to arm them when it did happen?

[nanother]

I think the current top level goes back further than 500 years. We should definitely try to keep track of the names during the re-read. I don't have the time to look stuff up now, but a number of Stark kings were listed in ADWD when Davos thinks about the history of Wolf's Den... I'm hoping that trying to match those with the ones Bran names gives us at least a rough indication...

[Black Crow]

The iron sword over the tomb custom is very interesting. If you take the myth at face value, that its to keep the old Starks in their tombs then I guess the belief then is that otherwise they'd come back from the dead. So two questions, why are they coming back (died in battle vs the Others?) and why does Iron keep them buried (any ideas?). My other thought would be is that the current myth is wrong, as they don't seem to actually have a good track record of remembering stuff, regardless of the North Remembers motto. So maybe there is another reason to put the swords there. The most obvious other reason would be because they thought it armed them in after life, next life, post life, next world, whatever. Or maybe the old Starks would rise from the dead and the swords were put there not to stop it from happening, but to arm them when it did happen?

Its a very well established belief in folklore that cold iron blocks magic, especially Faerie related magic.