What do you think of Stannis Baratheon? (Some spoilers )

[LuisDantas]

Well that blunder has nothing to do with Stannis and cant be used to make him look bad, so its forgiven.

No, it is simply not so obvious. I haven't understood it yet, actually.

[TheButcherCrow]

Ok so to answer the OP. I like Stannis, I think he is a stand-up bloke, a great commander & excellent king (for Westeros). However, his association with the red lot leaves me unable to support him. Let's say Stannis takes the IT, defeats the WW & begins the long summer (lol). What then? I'll tell you what then, Westeros turns into medieval europe with the faith & Stannis' red lot at each others throats, as I fear the Faith militant would not lay down arms so easily. Can anybody deny that if King Stannis sat the IT he would demand that everyone in Westeros convert to R'hllor? Can anyone deny he would burn every weirwood grove & sept? Can anyone deny he would give those who refused to convert to the flames? I think not. For these reasons I admire Stannis but cannot support him as king, religious intolerance doesn't fly with me & I can never truly love a character with such a blatant & offensive flaw.

[mormont]

- If we suppose "real world" genetics, the whole traits/hair color/etc. argument is really feeble, no matter what books you consult. Everybody knows somebody´s child who look just like mother, or just like father, or all children look just like one or the other, or all kids have hair color of one parent. This is no reason to suppose adultery let alone incest. "Seed is strong" with Robert for sure - but its totally plausible that Cerseis genes are even stronger and overpowered Roberts traits.

- If we have to postulate "Westerosi genetics", the writer has already failed, and for no good reason. I mean, why? It´s so easy to conceive plotline where the discovery is made in another, plausible way, without any constructions like this.

- The comparison to the fucked-up seasons is poor. Those seasons are one part of the mystical-magical fantasy world that GRRM weaves, including magic, dragons, etc. Would you like to include "Westerosi genetics" to this weave? More fitting comparison is, say, during sword fight Robert would just jump 3 meters to the air and land a final blow. How? Well, its "Westerosi gravity". Its fantasy you know. Aaaargh!

Well, since apparently in Westeros you can fire an arrow 700 feet straight up, I think "Westerosi gravity" is an actual thing. ;)

And I'll repeat - GRRM doesn't deny that he's played fast and loose with genetics in Westeros. He has to. There's simply no other way that after hundreds of years, most Freys would resemble weasels, most Florents would have notable ears and most Starks would have long faces. Now, you can accept that or you can refuse to accept it. It doesn't matter. It is a fact: that's how it works in the books. Children born to a Lannister/Baratheon marriage never have blond hair, and that's that.

[Gorian2609]

Stannis is easily one of the more sternest and pragmatic leaders in westeros, only comparable to Eddard (who suffered from niavety).

He does things by the books, to the colour of the ink and type of parchment. Now he is hardly the romaticised king that is utterly faultless that idealists want to believe in, BUT out of all the leaders in Westeros or even the whole world of ASOFAI, I challenge you to come up with a more fair and just ruler than Stannis.

If only more medieval kings in history were like him, I doubt history would've have been as turbulent and bloody as it has.

[LuisDantas]

What mistake? GRRM is the author, he can do what he wants with the plot/characters/science/logic/genetics. Just because you hate Stannis, it doesn't make it any less conclusive that GRRM clearly intended to make it very clear that Tommen is illegitimate, including within that vein a confession from the mother of that illegitimate child that the child is in fact, illegitimate.

As I said, Cersei's confession carries considerable weight, for obvious reasons.

Ned's statement that the gold always yields to the coal, though, is simply hurried and demonstrably inaccurate. Otherwise we would have to somehow reconcile two directly opposite facts:

1) Baratheons (or perhaps dark-haired people in general) always have dark-haired offspring. That would be a very obvious fact, since we know that there are millenia of record history in Westeros. They would have noticed.

2) None of the three children that are supposedly Cersei's and Robert's sons have dark hair. Somehow that is not an obvious evidence of adultery to most people before Stannis' suspicions came to fore.

For perspective, change the scenario slightly. Let's take as a premise, instead of 1), that afro-descendents and caucasians never have offspring with yellow skin and slanted eyes (which is fairly close to true in the real world). See how much more obvious an adultery would be if it violated that premise.

How come the Westerosi failed to notice Cersei's infidelity if Ned's conclusion was actually true? They would not.

[Arkantos]

Why would everyone note that the Baratheons always have black hair? (even though that's not what people are saying)

They haven't ruled the kingdoms for all that long and I think that those character traits are pretty normal.

Just look at the world now, the most common hair colours are black & brown, you don't take note when one family always has brown or black hair because most do anyway.

Also, why would people even remember the hair colour of generations past? How could they without that book?

[Gorian2609]

Ok so to answer the OP. I like Stannis, I think he is a stand-up bloke, a great commander & excellent king (for Westeros). However, his association with the red lot leaves me unable to support him. Let's say Stannis takes the IT, defeats the WW & begins the long summer (lol). What then? I'll tell you what then, Westeros turns into medieval europe with the faith & Stannis' red lot at each others throats, as I fear the Faith militant would not lay down arms so easily. Can anybody deny that if King Stannis sat the IT he would demand that everyone in Westeros convert to R'hllor? Can anyone deny he would burn every weirwood grove & sept? Can anyone deny he would give those who refused to convert to the flames? I think not. For these reasons I admire Stannis but cannot support him as king, religious intolerance doesn't fly with me & I can never truly love a character with such a blatant & offensive flaw.

Thats a difficult one to answer, and is something that I am highly anticipating in the future books. That said, there are two ways Stannis could approach this religous schism due to his taciturn and stoic character:

1) He could demand everyone convert to Rhollor and ignite a MASSIVE religous schism/war (unlikely, but Stannis is extreamly rigid so I could easily imagine him demanding it)

OR

2) He could declare the Kings faith as Rhollor, but at the same time tolerate worship of the new and old gods. Its clear he tolerates it within his own army, many people are Rhollor worshipers in name only. Now if he ruled an entire realm I doubt Stannis would initiate another even more bloody civil war, that would span decades. I could see him encouraging conversion to Rhollor but not enforcing it. Stannis himself is what I would decribe as a cross betweem a zealot/skeptic.

[E-Ro]

As I said, Cersei's confession carries considerable weight, for obvious reasons.

Ned's statement that the gold always yields to the coal, though, is simply hurried and demonstrably inaccurate. Otherwise we would have to somehow reconcile two directly opposite facts:

1) Baratheons (or perhaps dark-haired people in general) always have dark-haired offspring. That would be a very obvious fact, since we know that there are millenia of record history in Westeros. They would have noticed.

2) None of the three children that are supposedly Cersei's and Robert's sons have dark hair. Somehow that is not an obvious evidence of adultery to most people before Stannis' suspicions came to fore.

For perspective, change the scenario slightly. Let's take as a premise, instead of 1), that afro-descendents and caucasians never have offspring with yellow skin and slanted eyes (which is fairly close to true in the real world). See how much more obvious an adultery would be if it violated that premise.

How come the Westerosi failed to notice Cersei's infidelity if Ned's conclusion was actually true? They would not.

You are ignoring the fact that its not baratheons that always have black hair, its baratheon/lannister kids that always have black hair. And no, neds statement is not demonstrably innacurate, its the truth. IT doesn't matter that no one else realized it it wasn't so obvious. No one would think the queen had the stomach to take the risk of not having the kings kids. And there you again bringing real world facts into an argument about fantasy genetics. it doesn't work that way in grrms world and you just have to accept that.

[Techelles]

Here are a few quotes that reflect GRRM's attitude towards genetics in Westeros.

SSM

This is the Middle Ages. They don't know about DNA. Their knowledge of genetics revolves around theories about a person's "blood." If I start worrying about Brienne's chromosomes, the next step is trying to figure out the aerodynamic properties of dragons, and then the whole thing falls apart.

SSM

I will now tell the story of what GRRM said when asked about the Stark children and their ability as wargs. He was asked if the trait of being a warg ran in the Stark family.

"I don't know if I want to get into genetics - this is fantasy," he replied.

Also, here's some random quote I found online, though I could not locate the original interview.

At one point, when asked why his characters were taller, healthier, and longer-lived than actual Medieval people, George R. R. Martin explained that human genetics and biology do not work the same way in Westeros as they do in the real world. So George R. R. Martin considered that he could change all of that while maintaining “authenticity.”

[Tagganaro]

As I said, Cersei's confession carries considerable weight, for obvious reasons.

Ok, glad to see we can both agree this carries considerable weight.

Ned's statement that the gold always yields to the coal, though, is simply hurried and demonstrably inaccurate. Otherwise we would have to somehow reconcile two directly opposite facts:

It's a specific statement within the history of Baratheon/Lannister marriages. Additionally, you have the 17 Baratheon bastards or whatever number it was, all with black hair.

1) Baratheons (or perhaps dark-haired people in general) always have dark-haired offspring. That would be a very obvious fact, since we know that there are millenia of record history in Westeros. They would have noticed.

As Arkantos said above, it's not really something that must be noticed. Who looks at every Baratheon child and notes they have black hair unless they are specifically looking for it. People aren't just arbitrarily research this nor are they giving a shit about it.

2) None of the three children that are supposedly Cersei's and Robert's sons have dark hair. Somehow that is not an obvious evidence of adultery to most people before Stannis' suspicions came to fore.

How come the Westerosi failed to notice Cersei's infidelity if Ned's conclusion was actually true? They would not.

Are you basically trying to argue that since people don't notice it, it can't be true or at least this gives us good reason to doubt it? I don't get this argument. People either 1) Don't care or 2) Don't want to notice. We have essentially 3 different people who actually look into this and all come to the same conclusion about it- That Cersei's children are illegitimate. Ned, Stannis, and Jon Arryn all take a simple look into this and conclude the same thing. Cersei confesses to this herself. Maggi confirms this to Cersei as well--17 for Robert, 3 for you Cersei.

It really can't get more ironclad than that, short of a full-on paternity test which probably doesn't exist in Westeros.

[TheButcherCrow]

Thats a difficult one to answer, and is something that I am highly anticipating in the future books. That said, there are two ways Stannis could approach this religous schism due to his taciturn and stoic character:

1) He could demand everyone convert to Rhollor and ignite a MASSIVE religous schism/war (unlikely, but Stannis is extreamly rigid so I could easily imagine him demanding it)

OR

2) He could declare the Kings faith as Rhollor, but at the same time tolerate worship of the new and old gods. Its clear he tolerates it within his own army, many people are Rhollor worshipers in name only. Now if he ruled an entire realm I doubt Stannis would initiate another even more bloody civil war, that would span decades. I could see him encouraging conversion to Rhollor but not enforcing it. Stannis himself is what I would decribe as a cross betweem a zealot/skeptic.

I would tend toward 1 tbh. Here is a quote from SoS:

Jon found himself remembering something Donal Noye once said about the Baratheon brothers. Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, but brittle, the way iron gets. He’ll break before he bends. Uneasily, he knelt, wondering why this brittle king had need of him.

Donal Noye who made Stannis first sword, he saw Stannis & Robert grow up, saw their personalities develop. I don't know if there is a better and more truthful statement made about Stannis in all the books & made by someone who really knew him.

[Stannis ftw]

Ok so to answer the OP. I like Stannis, I think he is a stand-up bloke, a great commander & excellent king (for Westeros). However, his association with the red lot leaves me unable to support him. Let's say Stannis takes the IT, defeats the WW & begins the long summer (lol). What then? I'll tell you what then, Westeros turns into medieval europe with the faith & Stannis' red lot at each others throats, as I fear the Faith militant would not lay down arms so easily. Can anybody deny that if King Stannis sat the IT he would demand that everyone in Westeros convert to R'hllor? Can anyone deny he would burn every weirwood grove & sept? Can anyone deny he would give those who refused to convert to the flames? I think not. For these reasons I admire Stannis but cannot support him as king, religious intolerance doesn't fly with me & I can never truly love a character with such a blatant & offensive flaw.

Yeah, anyone can deny those. I think these fears are mostly in vain.

- Stannis is not a zealot red god worshipper. He is not even committed, hes probably not even a believer, he simply uses it because it works. I dont remember one hint of devotion, faith or something like that from Stannis in the books.

- Westeros doesnt have a tradition of forcing "state religion" and persecuting other religions. Targayrens adopted the Seven, but they still tolerated old gods and other gods. Why would it be in Stannis´s agenda to do this with Rhllor? Only chance I see is that Melisandre would be able to gain a really mighty position in the government and squeeze Stannis by the balls to extract policies like this.

[danm_999]

Yeah, and popularity is the one that Stannis needs if he wants to be king. No one has a divine right to rule. You're king if enough people say you're king, and not enough people say Stannis is king.

No, you're king if the right people say you're king.

[mcb]

Donal Noye who made Stannis first sword, he saw Stannis & Robert grow up, saw their personalities develop. I don't know if there is a better and more truthful statement made about Stannis in all the books & made by someone who really knew him.

So, Robert was far superior to Stannis, like steel is to iron?

[Believe in Stannis]

stannis is my fav to read about. love he is such a badass without trying to be one.. has funny lines as well...cant wait to see whats next for him if the books ever come out

[The Drunkard]

Donal Noye who made Stannis first sword, he saw Stannis & Robert grow up, saw their personalities develop. I don't know if there is a better and more truthful statement made about Stannis in all the books & made by someone who really knew him.

Comments like that show you more about the person making them then they do about the subject.

As to whether Stannis would impose a sole religion on the realm? I doubt it. The only reason he's attached himself to the Red God currently is that he knows it has some power to it. He doesn't care for gods or enforcing religious rules upon people, he just goes for whatever one brings the most benefits.

[ServantOnIce]

At first i though Stannis was this cold-hearted King who ought to die soon, but as i keep reading, he seems more decent to me. He seems like Tywin Lannister to me ( Somewhat, but Tywin's stronger ), this humorless, ice-cold, fighter. I always though GRRM will end his life soon, after Renly's death. But like Tywin, GRRM never talked in Stannis' point of view (Duh...) and Stannis just came popping up more often as I read on. What do you think of him?

I hated Stannis in, "Clash of Kings." I thought he was foolish, stubborn and just down right mean. Then I read, "A Dance With Dragons" then, "A Storm of Swords" and my view of the man changed.

He is honorable, and strong . . and one of my favorite characters . . .. he is a hero . . what he did in, "ADWD and ASOS" and the potential in "TWOW."

I mentioned before why I root for Stannis, because as I mentioned he is the last good guy left in Westeros. There are none other than him and Davos.

Dany is in Essos piddling around, Westeros is bleeding and there is only one physician, Stannis.

http://youtu.be/HhoD8I9DTXU

For Lord Eddard, For Robert Arryn, for King Robert Baratheon, For Robb and Lady Catelynn, for House Stark, for House Baratheon, for Jon Snow, for The Realm, for Westeros!!

"COME WITH ME AND TAKE THIS CITY!!!"

[Stannis ftw]

Your not missing anything, we are debating whether there's a chance in the deepest of the seven hells that cerseis kids are roberts.

For the record, I dont see any possibility that Cerseis kids are Roberts. But Luis Dantas has valid points IF you go by real-world genetics. As soon as you postulate Westerosi genetics, no use for arguments one way or another.

[LuisDantas]

Ok, glad to see we can both agree this carries considerable weight.

It's a specific statement within the history of Baratheon/Lannister marriages. Additionally, you have the 17 Baratheon bastards or whatever number it was, all with black hair.

We have Mya, Edric, Gendry and that baby from the first book IIRC. Do we know that the other dozen or so all have black hair?

I fail to see why Baratheon-Lannister pairings would follow unusual genetics.

As Arkantos said above, it's not really something that must be noticed. Who looks at every Baratheon child and notes they have black hair unless they are specifically looking for it. People aren't just arbitrarily research this nor are they giving a shit about it.

Which goes to show that Ned is probably wrong.

Are you basically trying to argue that since people don't notice it, it can't be true or at least this gives us good reason to doubt it?

Precisely.

I don't get this argument. People either 1) Don't care or 2) Don't want to notice. We have essentially 3 different people who actually look into this and all come to the same conclusion about it- That Cersei's children are illegitimate. Ned, Stannis, and Jon Arryn all take a simple look into this and conclude the same thing. Cersei confesses to this herself. Maggi confirms this to Cersei as well--17 for Robert, 3 for you Cersei.

They all have good reasons to be suspicious, sure. Ned has also Cersei's confession, and Stannis may or may not have known of other hints. We have no clue about what Jon Arryn knew other than that Stannis shared his findings with him.

It really can't get more ironclad than that, short of a full-on paternity test which probably doesn't exist in Westeros.

Yes, and that is probably the point.

[E-Ro]

We have Mya, Edric, Gendry and that baby from the first book IIRC. Do we know that the other dozen or so all have black hair?

I fail to see why Baratheon-Lannister pairings would follow unusual genetics.

Which goes to show that Ned is probably wrong.

Precisely.

They all have good reasons to be suspicious, sure. Ned has also Cersei's confession, and Stannis may or may not have known of other hints. We have no clue about what Jon Arryn knew other than that Stannis shared his findings with him.

Yes, and that is probably the point.

At one point, when asked why his characters were taller, healthier, and longer-lived than actual Medieval people, George R. R. Martin explained that human genetics and biology do not work the same way in Westeros as they do in the real world. So George R. R. Martin considered that he could change all of that while maintaining “authenticity.”