Did Catelyn abuse Jon for his whole life?

[Minsc]

Because marriage comes with certain obligations any normal person respects unless he is an SOB. Like "Don't bring your kid who is a result of an affair home and force your wife to live with him". Since divorce was not an option, fostering was the best choice. It's a well established tradition in Westeros and it would've given Jon a real mother figure too.

I always wonder why Ned didn't just tell Benjen not to take the Black, but instead set him up with a keep and have him watch over Jon. Surely, Lyanna would trust Benjen to keep Jon safe as much as she would trust Ned.

[The Wolves]

Because marriage comes with certain obligations any normal person respects unless he is an SOB. Like "Don't bring your kid who is a result of an affair home and force your wife to live with him". Since divorce was not an option, fostering was the best choice. It's a well established tradition in Westeros and it would've given Jon a real mother figure too.

Ned didn't force Catelyn to live with Jon, she chose to stay and bear him more kids, she chose to continue being Lady Stark and to put up with Jon's presence, she had a choice not a fair one but she had a choice.

And I get that marriage comes with certain obligations but I would think your children comes before all even your spouse.

Ned was wrong in a lot in the Catelyn and Jon situation but his obligation to Jon should come before any obligation he has towards Catelyn.

[Jasta11]

Why should Jon have been shipped somewhere else? To appease Catelyn and her hurt pride? I get Jon is a bastard and whatever but he was still Ned's son and just because Catelyn's feelings were hurt doesn't mean that Ned should put his child away from him. At the end of the day Jon was more important to Ned and he wanted to keep him close as he should have. I agree that Catelyn was put in a hard situation and Ned was selfish but Jon was still Ned's son and just because he was a bastard and Catelyn didn't want him around doesn't mean he should be sent from his father and his home.

It's how it works in Westeros. It's highly unusual for a father to keep his bastard as his son, and it must have looked even more strange when it was the honor-bound Ned that did it. Of course thanks to the R + L = J theory we know have a good idea exactly why he kept Snow close, and I think it was a good idea in the end, but to Cat it must have been very hard to have this walking product of Ned's infidelity walk around like he was an equal to her own children. Remember, Tullys put Family before even Duty or Honor, and Jon was definitely not family to her.

Also what David Selig said. I'd also be pretty damn upset if my wife absolutely required a child that was the product of an affair while we were married to stay at our home. It's almost like she would rub it in my face.

EDIT:

Ned didn't force Catelyn to live with Jon, she chose to stay and bear him more kids, she chose to continue being Lady Stark and to put up with Jon's presence, she had a choice not a fair one but she had a choice.

Um not she didn't have a choice. They were already married, it was all arranged. There is no divorce in Westeros, the only way she could rid herself of Jon would have been to run away from Winterfell, and would have been complete and utter dishonor on her, not to mention possibly her death. It was a ''choice'' insofar as it's a ''choice'' to either live with a children you don't like or be beheaded.

[Minsc]

Ned didn't force Catelyn to live with Jon, she chose to stay and bear him more kids, she chose to continue being Lady Stark and to put up with Jon's presence, she had a choice not a fair one but she had a choice.

No, she really didn't if she tried to go back to Riverrun then Hoster Tully would ship her right back to Ned.

[David Selig]

Ned was wrong in a lot in the Catelyn and Jon situation but his obligation to Jon should come before any obligation he has towards Catelyn.

Why? Most likely Jon isn't even Ned's child. And nobody is suggesting Jon to be left to die or be abandoned. Ned could easily arrange for him a good life somewhere away from Winterfell. Maybe better than at Winterfell.

[The Wolves]

Why? Most likely Jon isn't even Ned's child. And nobody is suggesting Jon to be left to die or be abandoned. Ned could easily arrange for him a good life somewhere away from Winterfell. Maybe better than at Winterfell.

Why? Because Ned called Jon son and considered him one and even if Jon isn't Ned's son he is still related to him. I get that you think Jon should have been fostered somewhere to make it easier on Cat, but a person's child should come before their spouse and his duty towards Jon matters more than his duty towards Catelyn.

[Minsc]

Why? Because Ned called Jon son and considered him one and even if Jon isn't Ned's son he is still related to him. I get that you think Jon should have been fostered somewhere to make it easier on Cat, but a person's child should come before their spouse and his duty towards Jon matters more than his duty towards Catelyn.

Rickard fostered Brandon and Ned, Stefon fostered Robert, Tywin fostered Jaime, Mace fostered Loras, Jon Arryn was going to foster Sweatrobin, etc fostering a child is not a sigh of abandoning or not loving a child.

[Young Nan]

Oh I totally agree that Jon should have been fostered somewhere else. It was a volatile situation and he would have been so much happier with a trusted friend, howland reed would've been perfect, he kept Ned's secret and would have treated Jon great, and he could have hung out with Meera and Jojen. It was kind of a shitty situation for everyone involved, I just think that the way Catelyn projected her resentment of Ned onto Jon was unfair, and she made her hostility against him very clear to Jon, Ned, and everyone else in winterfell. I think it's definitely understandable, but no less mentally demoralizing to Jon, who had to be a kid and endure it.

[The Wolves]

Rickard fostered Brandon and Ned, Stefon fostered Robert, Tywin fostered Jaime, Mace fostered Loras, Jon Arryn was going to foster Sweatrobin, etc fostering a child is not a sigh of abandoning or not loving a child.

I never said that fostering a child would be a sign of abandoning or not loving a child. Jon being fostered would have been a great idea and he could have seen Westeros before going to the Wall

I said that Jon should not be put from his father, siblings, and home to appease Catelyn's hurt feelings. I don't get why Jon had to go and Ned should have sent his child from him because Catelyn asked. That's some bullshit to have someone ask you to put your child from you just so she could be more secure.

[jons nissa]

Why? Most likely Jon isn't even Ned's child. And nobody is suggesting Jon to be left to die or be abandoned. Ned could easily arrange for him a good life somewhere away from Winterfell. Maybe better than at Winterfell.

he would never allow jon to leave winterfell to live somewhere else and i'll tell you why in 3 words: promise me, ned.

jon's safety couldn't be guaranteed anywhere else and his safety was paramount to ned.

[Minsc]

he would never allow jon to leave winterfell to live somewhere else and i'll tell you why in 3 words: promise me, ned.

jon's safety couldn't be guaranteed anywhere else and his safety was paramount to ned.

Ned should have had Benjen care for Jon, by refusing to allow him to take the black.

Personal aside, does anyone feel like Lyanna was extremely selfish?

[David Selig]

he would never allow jon to leave winterfell to live somewhere else and i'll tell you why in 3 words: promise me, ned.

Well, yeah, and that's wrong of Ned. His wife's happyness should more important than a promise to a dead sister.

jon's safety couldn't be guaranteed anywhere else and his safety was paramount to ned.

Why couldn't his safety be guaranteed anywhere else? What makes Winterfell safer for Jon than Last Hearth or Deepwood Motte?

That's some bullshit to have someone ask you to put your child from you just so she could be more secure.

If your spouse asks you to accept a kid who is a result of his/her infidelity in your home, what would you do?

[jons nissa]

Ned should have had Benjen care for Jon, by refusing to allow him to take the black.

Personal aside, does anyone feel like Lyanna was extremely selfish?

benjen care for jon where? and as for lyanna being selfish, you mean like a mother doing whatever she could to ensure the safety and well-being for her child? like cat?

[Minsc]

benjen care for jon where? and as for lyanna being selfish, you mean like a mother doing whatever she could to ensure the safety and well-being for her child? like cat?

Ned could easily grant Benjen some random Northern Keep to be his own. I was more talking about if she made Ned promise to lie to Catelyn about Jon's birth as connected to her own disdain about knowing that her betrothal had a bastard.

[The Wolves]

If your spouse asks you to accept a kid who is a result of his/her infidelity in your home, what would you do?

I would accept that child, I would feel anger and resentment towards my spouse but not direct that anger and resentment towards the child. I would be fair.

I just don't see how it's right to put Catelyn's needs above Jon's. Catelyn deserved the same respect and duty she gave Ned but that is that man's child it may not be hers(thank gawd)but Jon was Ned's. And Catelyn being the lovable mother that she is should know better than to ask someone constantly to put their child(whether they he bastard born or true born) from them because she was slighted.

[jons nissa]

Well, yeah, and that's wrong of Ned. His wife's happyness should more important than a promise to a dead sister.

Why couldn't his safety be guaranteed anywhere else? What makes Winterfell safer for Jon than Last Hearth or Deepwood Motte?

If your spouse asks you to accept a kid who is a result of his/her infidelity in your home, what would you do?

the sister he'd known his whole life asks him to protect his own blood and he should say no based on a woman he was asked to marry at the last minute because his brother died?

most likely ned made the call on keeping jon with him based on knowing robert intimately and being very aware of his vengeance against all targaryens. anyone could see it was too risky.

if my husband came home with a child from an affair, i have to decide what to do about him and the child. but i don't decide i forgive you but get this orphan out of here and put it up for adoption or something.

[jons nissa]

Ned could easily grant Benjen some random Northern Keep to be his own. I was more talking about if she made Ned promise to lie to Catelyn about Jon's birth as connected to her own disdain about knowing that her betrothal had a bastard.

yeah, you're right. cat would never create a lie to save her children. she wouldn't do everything she possibly could to ensure their safety. like the treason she committed when secretly release the highest political prisoner her side had to trade for her daughters regardless of the position it put robb in.

[Minsc]

yeah, you're right. cat would never create a lie to save her children. she wouldn't do everything she possibly could to ensure their safety. like the treason she committed when secretly release the highest political prisoner her side had to trade for her daughters regardless of the position it put robb in.

I don't care if she told Ned to tell everyone else that Jon is Ned's bastard, but I think she should have allowed him the permission to at least tell his wife thus sparing her the hurt that Lyanna ran away from thus helping instigate a bloody war.

[Young Nan]

I don't care if she told Ned to tell everyone else that Jon is Ned's bastard, but I think she should have allowed him the permission to at least tell his wife thus sparing her the hurt that Lyanna ran away from thus helping instigate a bloody war.

I don't know why he didn't tell Cat. it's not like she was gonna run and tattle on him to Robert. it would have solved a world of problems.

[Sofia Aillard]

It really depends on what you call "abuse". Don't think she ever hit him, or even said something nearly as bad as the "I should have been you". But that's not to say she didn't mistreat him.

Not once did she leave the room. So Jon had stayed away.

She was somewhere and because of that, he stayed away... Don't think that a child that realizes that he'd better steer clear from a mother figure, hasn't been "mistreated" (treated wrong)

He stood in the door for a moment, afraid to speak, afraid to come closer

Don't think that anyone who is literally afraid to do anything (speak or move) in the presence of somebody, wasn't treated very unkindly by that person.

GRRM: "Mistreatment" is a loaded word".

Yes "mistreatment" carries a load. We tend to think of abuse phisical or otherwise. But mistreatment can simply mean treat wrongly. So really, depends on your definition of mistreat.

Part of him wanted only to flee, but he knew that if he did he might never see Bran again. He took a nervous step into the room.

Either he is extremely shy (which we know he isn't) or that person scares the hell out of him... Why?

Once that would have sent him running. Once that might even have made him cry. (... ) He would be a Sworn Brother of the Night’s Watch soon, and face worse dangers than Catelyn Tully Stark

Again he is afraid of her. But GRRM said: "Did Catelyn beat Jon bloody? No", so why this fear? Ask any mistreated child and they will tell you: Afraid to get hurt (not only the physical way)

He could feel the tears rolling down his cheeks. Jon no longer cared.

So it's ok to cry to his brother, but he wanted to look like a strong person to her...

Her eyes found him. They were full of poison. “I need none of your absolution, bastard.” (...) “Jon,” she said. He should have kept going, but she had never called him by his name before

Since she never called him by his name, we can guess bastard was her way to refer to him. Now, he could have realized that moment that she was treating him that way all those years because SHE was afraid of him maybe more then he was afraid of her... But he didn't. He was only 14 years old. What's her excuse? GRRM said: "Did she verbally abuse and attack him? No.", yet we see Tyrion saying "Did I offend you?” the minute he realized Jon was upset by his question "You’re Ned Stark’s bastard, aren’t you?”. So we are left with two choices: Either Cat never realized that calling Jon a bastard hurted him (and it took Tyrion just once) or she never cared. In both cases, mistreat seems to fit.

His voice was flat and tired. The visit had taken all the strength from him. Robb knew something was wrong. “My mother... “ “She was... very kind,” Jon told him. Robb looked relieved.

By Jon's voice, Robb immediately thinks something "wrong" happened in Bran's room. Otherwise he wouldn't be relieved by the "she was kind" Jon said.

GRRM said: "(The instance in Bran's bedroom was obviously a very special case)"

Rightfully so! I am a mother and I can't begin to imagine (nor want to really!) what she was feeling, but then again, special circumstances or not "I should have been you" is simply unforgivable!

Later on ASoS, Cat talking to Robb

“No more than Theon Greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?”

Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer’s crypt, his teeth bared. Robb’s own face was cold. “That is as cruel as it is unfair. Jon is no Theon.”

Another "special case", she is thinking she lost all her children... And her last remaining son points out that is she being cruel and unfair to Jon.

So what I gather is that there are special cases to "forgive" Cat, but I wonder if in the past peaceful times, did she ever find it in her heart to "forgive" Jon from Ned's fault (fathering him)?