What does Bloodraven know, and when did he know it?

[lady m]

It is assumed that Bloodraven is warging - I'm using that term because it fits a greenseer better than skinchanger - both Mormont's raven and Balerion the cat in the Red Keep. I'm sure he's warging other things, but these are pertinent to this OP. The cat's original owner was Princess Rhaenys, daughter of Prince Rhaegar and Elia of Dorne. Was the cat being warged during the Sack of Kings Landing? If so, did he see what happened to Aegon? Did he know if a baby switch had taken place? Did he know if both children were killed?

Further, if he is warging Balerion then what might he know about current plots in the Red Keep? Varys uses the secret passages to hold conversations he thinks will not be overheard, we even saw him speaking with Illyrio about then current events while down in the passages under the Keep, Balerion was there as well. How much of what Varys is plotting about Dany, Viserys, Aegon, and even further back with regard to Aerys & Rhaegar might have been witnessed by a house cat? Varys is extremely careful with what he says, parsing every word of every sentence, but in that one sliver of a scene with Illyrio he is open, talking about his real plans. How often might this have happened, Varys thinking he's in a place only he knows so its safe to speak freely, and yet there's a cat there too?

Which brings it back to Mormont's raven. It calls Jon Snow 'king' on a number of occasions. One can assume that Bloodraven is the one referring to Jon as king. Bloodraven is without doubt a Targaryen loyalist, or was as long as he served the Targaryen kings. The raven would indicate two things, that he's both still loyal to the Targaryen dynasty, and that he believes that Jon is that dynasty's rightful heir.

To not make this just about Aegon and Jon, which isn't really my purpose, I'd also like to consider what Bloodraven did while in the Black Cells. Bloodraven was loyal not just to Aerys I, who he served as Hand, and Daeron II, who he served as Master of Whisperers, he was loyal to the Targaryen dynasty. So when Maekar puts him in the dungeons does his loyalty end? Since the description of how he gets his information to begin with lends itself to assuming he always got it through spying with animals. So this would not limit him just because he is imprisoned, instead he could continue to gather information if he was ever called on, or if he got information he felt was important enough to try to get to the correct ears. This could become useful once he leaves for the Wall and seeks to keep tabs from a distance. Do readers believe there was ever a time Bloodraven did not keep tabs on what was happening at the Red Keep?

[Free Northman]

I think he knows pretty much everything that GRRM does.

Honestly, I think he knows everything about all the key events of the last two generaitons that led up to the present, and he also knows a fair bit about the future through some prophetic dreams or visions.

And of course, he knows everything that has happened in the ancient past, going back for the last 10,000 years or so, through the weirwood network's memories.

[Mikkel]

To the best of my knowledge, there's no textual evidence about what Bloodraven does and doesn't know about these things, but it seems likely that his main area of interest has centered around the Red Keep, so it's a fair guess to say that he's kept his knowledge current via Balerion on a regular basis. It's also a fair guess that he's kept tabs on Jon, and that he knows about R+L=J. As to his loyalties, that's impossible to tell - he could be anywhere between "benevolent sage" and "vampiric, Jojen-paste-making lich-like creep" at this stage.

[Winterz]

Even if he does know it all, he doesn't seem to be that interested which only proves that Bran's the real deal to defeat the evil that is coming.

[King of Winters]

I think he knows pretty much everything that GRRM does.

Honestly, I think he knows everything about all the key events of the last two generaitons that led up to the present, and he also knows a fair bit about the future through some prophetic dreams or visions.

And of course, he knows everything that has happened in the ancient past, going back for the last 10,000 years or so, through the weirwood network's memories.

If he can go back up to 10,000 years or so he might be the one who reveals some secrets on The Others.

[Turin Turambar]

He knows a lot, but doesn't intervene so far. Just like Patchface with his prophecies.

[lady m]

he could be anywhere between "benevolent sage" and "vampiric, Jojen-paste-making lich-like creep" at this stage.

I don't think Bloodraven could ever be categorized as 'benevolent,' he's a very ruthless guy in pursuit of his goals once he has chosen his side. But I also don't believe the Jojen past theories are correct. Weirwood sap just happens to be the color of blood, and given how the faces on heart trees are described I think their sap could also be called their blood.

[Groat]

I don't think Bloodraven could ever be categorized as 'benevolent,' he's a very ruthless guy in pursuit of his goals once he has chosen his side. But I also don't believe the Jojen past theories are correct. Weirwood sap just happens to be the color of blood, and given how the faces on heart trees are described I think their sap could also be called their blood.

wow, someone else who doesn't buy the "Jojen paste" theory, aweseome. I always saw the weirwood paste as the equivalent of the shade of the evening, which also seems to have magical powers and, as far as I know, does not require human sacrifice to work.

[Lost Umber]

wow, someone else who doesn't buy the "Jojen paste" theory, aweseome. I always saw the weirwood paste as the equivalent of the shade of the evening, which also seems to have magical powers and, as far as I know, does not require human sacrifice to work.

Count me in on the "Jojen paste" deniers team.

Although the weirwoods are grafted onto people so the red sap should have some blood in it... I just don't think it's Jojen's.

I'm also missing why people think BR is warging into Balerion.

[King of Winters]

I hate the Jojen paste theory.

Could Bloodraven have warged into Ghost beyond The Wall for a purpose of some sort?

[TheCrannogDweller]

I'm also missing why people think BR is warging into Balerion.

Because the cat is somehow significant and very old? And it's one-eyed like him.

[bemused]

Jojen paste is non-existent , I believe.

I wonder about ghost , too. It will be interesting to see what Jon will sense when he finally starts to use his ability fully.

But about BR ,with his mixed Targaryen /Bracken blood , and his ties to the CoTF and the Old Gods. He should have a unique perspective , but I'd be surprised if his main focus has been on KL. I'm sure he must have been much more widely focused.

One of the things I wonder about is, will Aegon's insistence on having the Stark king kneel, be shown to have caused a weakening in the defenses against the Others? ... To be fair to Aegon , the Others had not been a threat for a very long time, and he probably didn't believe they still existed. Did the transfer to seeing the wildlings as the threat really take off from this point ?..Anway , politically speaking , he wouldn't have been comfortable with another King sitting to the north , but did this greatly accelerate the magical unpreparedness that exists (simultaneously with the dwindling of the numbers on the wall) as the Others awaken ?

Torrhen knelt a little less than 300 yrs. ago . Direwolves have not been seen south of the wall for over 200 yrs..( hmmm ..cause and effect ?) The Starks seem to have forgotten their own abilities and the reason ( I assume there is one ) that there must always be a Stark in WF.

At the same time , BR probably knows more than anyone else about Targaryen history and perhaps the Doom. So he may be the one person best able to see how these two magical pieces of the puzzle fit together. The Others and dragons have not coincided before ( I don't think ) and they both pose threats / grave problems.

[lady m]

wow, someone else who doesn't buy the "Jojen paste" theory, aweseome. I always saw the weirwood paste as the equivalent of the shade of the evening, which also seems to have magical powers and, as far as I know, does not require human sacrifice to work.

I have a theory that blood magic is a corruption or attempting to simulate COTF weirwood and weirwood sap aided magic.

I also think most of us that don't ascribe to theories don't post threads about them, probably why the it's not Jojen paste folks are quieter.

But about BR ,with his mixed Targaryen /Bracken blood , and his ties to the CoTF and the Old Gods. He should have a unique perspective , but I'd be surprised if his main focus has been on KL. I'm sure he must have been much more widely focused.

Bloodraven's mother was a Blackwood, not a Bracken. That's Bittersteel.

One of the things I wonder about is, will Aegon's insistence on having the Stark king kneel, be shown to have caused a weakening in the defenses against the Others? ... To be fair to Aegon , the Others had not been a threat for a very long time, and he probably didn't believe they still existed. Did the transfer to seeing the wildlings as the threat really take off from this point ?..Anway , politically speaking , he wouldn't have been comfortable with another King sitting to the north , but did this greatly accelerate the magical unpreparedness that exists (simultaneously with the dwindling of the numbers on the wall) as the Others awaken ?

I think Aegon was scared of the Starks and that Brandon Snow could have killed the dragons with his weirwood arrows. I also think the Targaryens systematically weakened the north in an effort to weaken the Starks. The Wall goes from 10,000+ to 1,000 in 300 years. That doesn't happen without someone helping it along. But I think they knew about the warging of First Men and Starks in particular and it scared them, which is why they mostly ignored the North and didn't seek to marry into the Starks. Also think they were wrong, since the only Targ/weirwood worshiping First Men progeny we see have such interesting traits and one is, Bloodraven, and Jon has the potential to be very powerful.

[Dr. Pepper]

Bloodraven was loyal not just to Aerys I, who he served as Hand, and Daeron II, who he served as Master of Whisperers, he was loyal to the Targaryen dynasty. So when Maekar puts him in the dungeons does his loyalty end? <snip> Do readers believe there was ever a time Bloodraven did not keep tabs on what was happening at the Red Keep?

Bloodraven encounters Dunk and Egg at Whitehalls and I'd like to think that this meeting had a positive effect on both Bloodraven and Egg. If it did, I think Egg taking care to remove Bloodraven from the Black Cells ensured that he remained loyal.

I think that Bloodraven has always been watching since he's been enthroned in the weirwoodnet. He's able to see past and present and he doesn't spend a whole lot of time 'outside' of the net. It's really impossible, at this point, to know all of what he knows though I think it's safe to say that when we 'see' him via one of his warged creatures, he's watching and knowing. I think we can even extend this to Essos as we have some Bloodraven imagery at Tyrion's slave auction with the lady who kept raising the price with "And one!".

[Manderlay]

Well when Bran wakes up in GoT he doesn't need to warg into an animal to see all the things he saw, nor does he need a weirwood

He looked east, and saw a galley racing across the waters of the Bite. He saw his mother sitting alone in a cabin, looking at a bloodstained

knife on a table in front of her, as the rowers pulled at their oars and Ser Rodrik leaned across a rail, shaking and heaving. A storm was

gathering ahead of them, a vast dark roaring lashed by lightning, but somehow they could not see it.

He looked south, and saw the great blue-green rush of the Trident. He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief.

BR explains to Bran the Weirwood is basically a knowledge base or library which has records of everything from the past, so they can search and go back in the past to find the information they need. (also present but not sure about future)

So I would assume that BR doesn't necessarily need to warg into an animal to know whats going on nor does he need to look deep in the weirwoods to see whats happening, he just needs his greensight to go wherever he wants to see whats happening, so yes most likely he would know if Aegon was switched or not, he probably knows a lot

Although BR when he was a man and in the black cells I don't think he used his abilities as warg, he might have been ignorant to it like sansa was, how many eyes does he have 1000 and one eye, I think from TMK we can assume that he was well informed through network of spies rather than being a warg at that time, he realized his abilities when he reached the wall and magic is strong at the wall as melisandre said it is one of the hinges of the world IIRC, BR being born half blackwood, the weirwood at ravens tree and balerion the cat with one eye does not mean that BR was a warg in Daeron and Maekars time.

[jon crow]

considering most of the weirwoods in the south have been destroyed, bloodraven probably doesn't have as good awareness of what's happening there. as for warging there, we don't really know what the rules for warging are so i'm not sure he even could warg in the south without having an existing connection with an animal there. interesting bit about balerion the cat and his one red eye, though. he would have to be an extremely old cat, i think. he is referred to as 'older than sin,' though...

however,

one thing i'm really not sure about is whether bloodraven really cares about the current events of the realm enough to have an active interest. he's lived a thousand (and one *rimshot*) lifetimes as a greenseer. he's seen so much across a span of so many years that it all blends together. what is one short period of conflict against the entirety of history? he sought out bran because he knew someone had to replace him, so he's at least aware of what the present day is relative to him, but i don't think time is really that important to him compared to how we experience it. he's going to have a lot more interest in times like the long night and the current (relative to us) threat of the others, not who sits on the iron throne or anything that happens in king's landing for that matter.

[mindchap]

Since we don't have anything definite as far as his imprisonment goes, it is possible that it was just a cover for him to disappear as Plumm or something along those lines. I don't think he's evil because he hasn't butchered any helpless people and even though some of his actions may seem wrong from a logical point of view he always does what's best for the majority.

[bemused]

lady m..

Sorry, I meant Blackwood , of course . They of the tree and ravens, right ? :D (a bit of Big/Little , Little/Big Walder syndrome creeping in there .)

I quite agree that the degeneration of the power in the North was probably helped along.. and I'm sure it seemed politically expedient , but the reasons for cultivating that power ( Others) were not apparent , at the time.

[redviper9]

I'm also missing why people think BR is warging into Balerion.

As was noted above, Balerion is incredibly old and he has one eye, just like Bloodraven. Balerion is also especially hostile to the Lannisters -- the family that ordered the deaths of Rhaenys and Aegon and killed Aerys II -- as noted by him stealing Tywin's food during a feast and frequently attacking Tommen and his cats.

As to what Bloodraven knows, I think he is fully aware of Jon's parentage and his possible significance, especially if the theory that Rhaegar married Lyanna in a weirwood grove is true. It wouldn't surprise me if he didn't tap into the Red Keep until after the Targaryen dynasty fell. There is no weirwood in the Red Keep, so Bloodraven may not have found out about the war until the news reached Castle Black (this is assuming that he was already warging the ravens there). It was only then that he might have decided that it would be good to check back in at the Red Keep. Of course, there are other animals he could have warged before Balerion, so it might be impossible to tell.

Regarding Bloodraven's loyalties, I think that it's currently to the realm, not a particular dynasty. Bloodraven and Aemon seem to have been made of the same cloth: namely, these are men who take their oaths seriously. Bloodraven appears to know that the true threat to Westeros is the Others, and at the end of the day, who sits the Iron Throne isn't really that important in the coming struggle. Furthermore, all of Bloodraven's efforts have been channeled at getting Bran north of the Wall and to (seemingly) helping Jon during his tenure as Lord Commander. Bloodraven is in effect playing a much longer game than anyone else we've met so far.

[Ser Creighton]

Don't over rate blood ravens power so much. He can see the past through the wierwoods, if the wierwoods didn't see it niether did he.

I don't think he can just warg into any animal he wants at any time on the planet. I think he would of needed to know the animal. I think most of the information he has is from the Wierwoods and probably Ravens. He would probably know who Jons parents are from Ned praying in the gods wood. He also seems far more intrested in the Others than in the Targs and KL.

Ghost is almost symbolic of Blood Raven, and generally you have to ask yourself how that one Dire Wolf female made it past the wall but none of her pack did. No other Dire Wolf has, just a guess but he probably sent her.

Intresting note Blood Raven told Bran he would never walk, Martin when last asked about it, well after Dance came out, said he would not answer if Bran would ever walk again.