Death of House Frey

[honeyed chicken]

This topic has been lying peacefully for 5 days, but I'm going to wake it again.

LF's ultimate goal appears to be the IT and he's pretty good at getting what he wants. At the very least he is close to securing the 20,000 knights and soldiers of the Vale.

Why should that bother House Frey?

If you remember, LF was quite obsessed with Catelyn Tully Stark. The Lady House Frey butchered at their Red Wedding.

He may not seek revenge on the Frey's for her murder, but I would not want to bet on it.

- So to be on the "safe" i.e. pessimistic side, add LF to the list of Frey enemies lurking in the bushes.

which includes

- Bran and by extension the weirwood network, the CotF, the Ravens. (murdered his mother)

- Arya, an FM, and probably Nymeria and her wolfpack. (ditto)

- Jorah Mormont whose khaleesi has dragons... (murdered his sister)

- the Crannogmen (murdered their lord's friend and liege lord's lady and son and men)

- Jon Snow - not sure how he'll figure, but he will. (murdered his brother)

- Rickon, crazy angry kid. May grow to be the most bloody and ferocious Stark ever. (murdered his mother)

that's a lot of enemies to have without knowing...

Oops.

[Ser Areo Mace]

- Jorah Mormont whose khaleesi has dragons... (murdered his sister)

His sister wasn't there. She was sent into the Neck with the letter. Sadly though, Dacey was there. :crying:

I dont think it is needed. The House of Frey can no longer rule the Crossing, but that does not mean they all need to be killed. The men can be sent to the Wall, become Maesters or Sepons and the women can become silent sisters or septas. If they refuse, then they may be killed, they refused the Kings mercy.

As for the Twins Lordship can be handed either to a second son of Edmure and Roslin, if they have more than one son. Or when Edwyns daughter Walda comes of age she can marry a loyal servant of the King and their children can rule the Twins like Lancel should have. Or they can ignore blood rights and just give the Twins to one of the Kings loyal servants.

I like where you're going with this. I said death to those that had a hand in the planning, and execution of the plan. If there is a descendent that is capable of being left in charge of the Twins, then I'd consider doing that. But, it may be better to just strip them of it and give it to someone else. The children can be fostered throughout the kingdom, most of the men can find work as hedge or household knights, maesters, septons, warrior's sons, etc. Some may prefer to take the black, and I'm all for that, The women can possibly be married off to some of the smaller land owners, for those that can't, then they can become septas or silent sisters. Some may go into some other form of business, if that's what they want then go right ahead.

[honeyed chicken]

His sister wasn't there. She was sent into the Neck with the letter. Sadly though, Dacey was there. :crying:

Are you sure Dacey isn't his sister? If not, she's still blood - still a niece or something.

[Ser Areo Mace]

Are you sure Dacey isn't his sister? If not, she's still blood - still a niece or something.

Yep, hundred percent sure. Jorah is Dacey's cousin. Jeor aka the Old Bear (Jorah's dad) and Maege (Dacey's mom) are brother and sister.

[WinterWarrior]

Nope, all of House Frey needs to be destroyed. Period. The only one I would spare is Roslin Frey Tully.

[Nathan Stark]

Why are all of the Stark fans on this forum so very genocidal? I admit that I'm new here, but I know the books fairly well. There are Stark fans on this discussion who actually advocate the slaughter of very young children. That is not what Ned would have done. It is not what Robb would have done. Jon Snow wouldn't do it, and neither would Bran. (I'm not entirely sure about Rickon.)

Because Starks do not kill innocent children. And if they started doing so, than they would be no better than the Lannisters, or the Freys.

The greatest strength for the Starks has always been that they are the one House willing to put their lives on the line in order to help protect the smallfolk and assorted others who cannot defend themselves. That is what makes them different from the Lannisters. The Starks rule according to the common good, and not just for the sole benefit of their family.

Can you see Ned trying to murder an innocent four year old Frey, who could have had no part in the Red Wedding? Lets think about this. Ned Stark is the same guy who had his father and brother roasted by the Mad King, and who helped lead a rebellion against that king, yet he objected to Roberts plans to murder Danearys Targaryen, and never forgave Jaime Lannister for stabbling the Mad King in the back. Does the seem like the kind of guy who would want to take vengeance on entire families?

I am ashamed of my fellow Stark fans. At best, they seem a lot like Tywin Lannister.

Nope, all of House Frey needs to be destroyed. Period. The only one I would spare is Roslin Frey Tully.

At worst, they sound like Adolf Hitler.

[The Prince of Ice]

hogwash, the Starks (at least the men, Ned's daughters are a bit better) are as bad at the Game of Thrones as anyone in the books. They continually throw away the interest of their people for their own personal crusades. If Ned would have cared a little less about his honor, he'd still be alive, Robb would still be alive, Catelyn would still be alive, and Renly, a good King, would sit the Iron Throne. Would Tywin plot behind Casterly Rock? Definitely, but that would be a bridge to cross when come to, but the power and gigantic army of the Tyrells would keep them safe. What's more is that punishing the Lannisters would bring the crown closer to the Martells as well.

Even with his father's lapse of reason for the sake of his own pitiful honor, Robb would rule the Riverlands from Winterfell with Theon by his side if he hadn't made mistake after tactical mistake, trusting the wrong people, including his idiot uncle, Edmure.

The Starks are the worst players of the game of the major houses, the worst. That much is undeniable. I don't know how you can reason otherwise.

You really didnt read my post did you? The Game of Thrones is southern politics, it has nothing to do with the North.

Your ignorance astounds me.

[The Prince of Ice]

Why are all of the Stark fans on this forum so very genocidal? I admit that I'm new here, but I know the books fairly well. There are Stark fans on this discussion who actually advocate the slaughter of very young children. That is not what Ned would have done. It is not what Robb would have done. Jon Snow wouldn't do it, and neither would Bran. (I'm not entirely sure about Rickon.)

Because Starks do not kill innocent children. And if they started doing so, than they would be no better than the Lannisters, or the Freys.

The greatest strength for the Starks has always been that they are the one House willing to put their lives on the line in order to help protect the smallfolk and assorted others who cannot defend themselves. That is what makes them different from the Lannisters. The Starks rule according to the common good, and not just for the sole benefit of their family.

Can you see Ned trying to murder an innocent four year old Frey, who could have had no part in the Red Wedding? Lets think about this. Ned Stark is the same guy who had his father and brother roasted by the Mad King, and who helped lead a rebellion against that king, yet he objected to Roberts plans to murder Danearys Targaryen, and never forgave Jaime Lannister for stabbling the Mad King in the back. Does the seem like the kind of guy who would want to take vengeance on entire families?

I am ashamed of my fellow Stark fans. At best, they seem a lot like Tywin Lannister.

At worst, they sound like Adolf Hitler.

Thank you for posting this, innocent Frey children dont need to die,neither do any of the Freys who didnt participate and were loyal to Edmure and Robb.

A loy of us Stark fans are still red from the Red Wedding especially because of the reminder when it came out in the series.

However i do agree a lot of us are too extreme regarding the Freys.

Boltons on the other hands can all burn, except for Fat Walda that is. I doubt Fake Aryas going back to Ramsay.

[Red Raven]

Because Starks do not kill innocent children. And if they started doing so, than they would be no better than the Lannisters, or the Freys.

Once again, Ned would have had no problem killing an innocent Theon for the actions of Balon.

The Starks put the entire house of Greystark to the sword, children included; no different than what Lannisters did to the Reynes and the Tarbecks.

Northern politics may be different than southern politics but the Starks are no less bloody than any other regional ruling house. They couldn't stay in power if they didn't swing some swords and make examples of people. That's an ugly truth of this world and the Starks aren't magical exceptions.

[Snowmelter]

The Starks have nothing to do with it. House Frey violated one of the few laws the Old Gods have: guest right. For this alone they will probably be destroyed. I believe this because GRRM has made such and issue of guest right through the series. To see it so violated and subsequently ignored in the story would seem strange. Especially because the Old Gods seem to be powerfull. Of course, I subscribe to the theroy that the Old Gods, the CotF, and the Others are all connected in some way.

[Snowmelter]

Remember, the Old Gods didn't punish the Rat Cook for serving up a prince-and-bacon pie...they punished him for violating guest right.

[The Prince of Ice]

Once again, Ned would have had no problem killing an innocent Theon for the actions of Balon.

The Starks put the entire house of Greystark to the sword, children included; no different than what Lannisters did to the Reynes and the Tarbecks.

Northern politics may be different than southern politics but the Starks are no less bloody than any other regional ruling house. They couldn't stay in power if they didn't swing some swords and make examples of people. That's an ugly truth of this world and the Starks aren't magical exceptions.

I agree with this except we dont know that any children were left of the Greystarks when they were annhialted. Most likely there were and were put to the sword but we dont know.

[circularlogic]

Too many of them to wipe out imo

[The Prince of Newcastle]

I want the rat cook story to happen.

He betrayed guest rights. He's gonna have to "feed" on his young to survive IMO.

I want them all to suffer to the last man. They showed no discretion in killing not just Robb who betrayed them, but everyone else as well. Fairs fair, an eye for an eye.

I do love the late Walder Frey though.

[Nathan Stark]

Once again, Ned would have had no problem killing an innocent Theon for the actions of Balon.

The Starks put the entire house of Greystark to the sword, children included; no different than what Lannisters did to the Reynes and the Tarbecks.

Northern politics may be different than southern politics but the Starks are no less bloody than any other regional ruling house. They couldn't stay in power if they didn't swing some swords and make examples of people. That's an ugly truth of this world and the Starks aren't magical exceptions.

I disagree. Where has it been said that Ned would have killed Theon? I have read the books many times, but I don't remember the part where the Starks actually threatened to kill Theon (except, of course, when Theon had invaded Winterfell). Jugding from Ned's actions in the short time we knew him, I think he would have had serious qualms about killing Theon. And just look at how he treated Theon in his own house. The Starks gave Theon a sword, they gave him a bow and arrows, and practically raised him as a northerner. Ned only needed Theon as a ward under his "protection" so that he could help keep Balon Greyjoy in line. So, sure, the threat was there, but I doubt Ned ever had any intentions to kill Theon Greyjoy.

I agree with the second part of your statement, that the Starks had no problems with killing innocent Greystarks. But that was an event that took place thousands of years before Ned's time, and I think the values that Ned Stark lived by had changed over the course of those thousands of years. In the end, I don't think much of that argument, because you're assuming that the times and the people and the morals don't change, when in fact they do. Tywin Lannister utterly destroyed the Reynes and the Tarbecks, but that does not mean that Ned Stark, or Robb Stark, would have done the same to the Greystarks.

Finally, I would be the last to argue that the Starks have not had to take off heads in order to stay in power, or to wield their notion of justice. The difference is that the Starks, raised by Eddard Stark, at least, were raised to look into the eyes of the person who's life they are to take, and to listen to their final words. This is what Ned tells Bran in the first chapter of AGoT. People like Tywin and Joffrey and Cersie just order the headman to swing the ax. I like Ned's way better, if it has to be done. Simply put, there is little honor in killing, but the Starks try to do so honorably, and as little as possible. (And I haven't seen where the Starks make "examples of some people." Where is that written?)

I maintain that there is a difference between keeping someone a hostage in order to prevent that hostages troublesome father from making trouble, and in slaughtering children who could not have been part of the Red Wedding as an act of vengeance. The first is a political move meant to keep an opponent in line, while the second is just purely genocidal. I think that your use of the Starks destroying the Greystarks as an example gets to bottom of what I dislike about your arguments.

I think that you are implying that the living Starks are guilty of what their descendants did thousands of years before. You then carry that example further as a reason (justification?) for killing innocent Freys, because, by assuming that children are responsible for their parents crimes, that makes it justifiable in punishing Frey children for the Red Wedding. The problem is that children are not responsible for what their parents did. The modern Starks do not share the blame for wiping out the Greystarks, and the Frey children do not share the blame for the Red Wedding.

So, I stand by what I said; killing every single one of the Freys is genocidal, and is against everything Ned Stark stood for. The past is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is the present and the future.

[Nathan Stark]

I know I am being longwinded here, but I still am bothered by the lack of empathy that so many Stark sympathizers seem to have. I just don't think it is Ned Stark's way, and is a poor way to honor him.

[Nathan Stark]

1. Walder Frey himself deserves a special punishment. Flaying, Mad Huntsmen cage, strung by a rope taut between the Twins and left to the elements, and other things.
   
   
2. Those who had a hand in the Red Wedding need to be hanged. Perhaps next to Walder.
   
   
3. The Twins themselves need to be torn down. The bridge can stay, but the towers must go down. The attendant lands, must be redistributed.
   
   
4. As for the innocent Freys, I see no reason to punish them. That being stated, they've certainly enjoyed some comforts by virtue of being related to a powerful lord. No more. None get to inherit lands. The unmarried women go without dowries, the knights lose their horses and armor, etc. Let them find some way to succeed in life without being a Frey. If Edmund wants to keep his wife, fine. If a Northern lord would hire Olyvar, fine. There is a need for more peasants in the Riverlands, some might find work that way. That legendary Frey fecundity might help serve to repopulate the region.
   

:agree: :agree: :agree:

[Bacon Dragon the Crispy]

My crackpot theory is that Arya will be tasked with the murder of Walder Frey. To do so she will also be asked to kill Roslin Frey and assume her identity. After Old Walder is dead, she will open the gates to the Twins for her wolf army to finish the Freys.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

I understand the qualms of Nathan Stark, but I must disagree here some. While I do value your statements expressing that everyone in House Frey should die is morally wrong, I do realize this is war. So while the honorable people, such as Ned or Robb or Bran, would never kill an innocent child, there are some mercenaries or knights or other people who would stoop to do this. My guess is that everyone played a part in the Red Wedding is toast, the others, such as the girls paraded in front of Robb, will either be unfortunate casualties or be married off into different names. The Twins will be torn down however, and the lordship will be lost. Also, the Rat King story applies here. While it will never be Walder Frey munching on his own kids, it will be the kids fighting and killing each other for the lordship.

[honeyed chicken]

I know I am being longwinded here, but I still am bothered by the lack of empathy that so many Stark sympathizers seem to have. I just don't think it is Ned Stark's way, and is a poor way to honor him.

I know there are a few ASOIAF/Stark fans who root for the Frey's to die, but there are seemingly just as many who like yourself deplore the idea.

I've been through this before with others like you and had no success, but I'm a stubborn, hardheaded old Norseman, so here goes again:

Don't conflate the world of ASOIAF with mother earth. Different rules apply. Tywin Lannister burned the riverlands and killed countless babies because the daughter of their lord kidnapped his son. Tyriion wasn't even harmed.

By that standard, the descendants of Walder Frey are in far greater jeopardy. Whether I am "rooting" for the death of Frey babies or not is 100% irrelevant. The books this author have written make it clear that the Freys are all at risk.

To me, the crowning irony GRRM has left Frey apologists like you with is that the most doggedly anti children killing advocate, Ned Stark was put to death by a child (Joffrey was 13/14 - a middle schooler in the here and now and certainly a child by any developmental standards).