Elia Didn't Know Aegon Was Replaced With an Imposter

[Mladen]

It's been argued considerably and I'm sure we've both read both sides many times and now just regurgitating that so I'll stop with the Varys "mastermind" defense. But how much does Dany even know about the sack? Is she even aware of Varys, I can't remember? I think her friction with Aegon will exist because she's not going to marry "Her nephew" and take second place to an inexperienced, immature miracle boy whose throne she has been fighting for since Viserys died. Dany has long passed the point where she's going to let someone else come out of the blue and claim to have the better claim. She didn't even respect Viserys, albeit totally nuts, but had a better claim than she.

She doesn`t have clue about anything actually. Her friction with Aegon will be her HotU vision and Quaithe`s warning. I don`t think she`ll have ever be open to him...

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

She doesn`t have clue about anything actually. Her friction with Aegon will be her HotU vision and Quaithe`s warning. I don`t think she`ll have ever be open to him...

Do you think it'll be that basic, though? I admit I didn't consider the prophecies but even without them, would she ever yield her claim at this point, even if she thought Aegon to be real? That would go one of two ways, either she marries him (no way), or she backs him and thus becomes a princess of sorts. I think either way her views of the line of succession don't matter. She birthed the dragons, Westeros is hers. She won't take a backseat even to her brother's child.

[Mladen]

Do you think it'll be that basic, though? I admit I didn't consider the prophecies but even without them, would she ever yield her claim at this point, even if she thought Aegon to be real? That would go one of two ways, either she marries him (no way), or she backs him and thus becomes a princess of sorts. I think either way her views of the line of succession don't matter. She birthed the dragons, Westeros is hers. She won't take a backseat even to her brother's child.

Yes, that mummer`s dragon thing is going to haunt her for some time, and I believe she would rather believe he`s fake than real. As you said, just like the rest of the gang, she feels entitled for the IT. I think she`ll convince herself that he is fake, and that dellusionment will be why we`ll never find out whether he is real or not on paper. For me his is Blackfyre, but many argued that this truth will be seen only through Dany`s POV.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

There is no way — flat-out no way — that a mother wouldn't recognize that a baby wasn't her son.

The switch seems plausible enough if and only if you take it at face value. As soon as you dig a little deeper — Where'd they find a Targ-lookalike baby in Pisswater Bend? How'd they know the poor thing's face would be destroyed? Why not save Rhaenys too, if they could save Aegon? Why not just smuggle him out and not even worry about a switch? — it starts to disintegrate.

Something else interesting — the Pisswater Prince story implies, at least to me, that the double was a newborn or close to it ("His mother died birthing him ..." and his father obviously hadn't bonded with him that much if he sold him for a jug of wine). Aegon, though not that old, was not a newborn and was at least several months old, probably close to a year if not a bit older. There is no way to convincingly pass off a newborn as a year-old child.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

There is no way — flat-out no way — that a mother wouldn't recognize that a baby wasn't her son.

The switch seems plausible enough if and only if you take it at face value. As soon as you dig a little deeper — Where'd they find a Targ-lookalike baby in Pisswater Bend? How'd they know the poor thing's face would be destroyed? Why not save Rhaenys too, if they could save Aegon? Why not just smuggle him out and not even worry about a switch? — it starts to disintegrate.

Obviously the OP is completely out of whack.

But even if his face isn't destroyed, is it obvious to others it wasn't Aegon? Rhaenys is too old to switch. They switched Arya, who of course was way older, but even Jaime knows it's not Arya (I may be misremembering). And they can't smuggle him out because Tywin would say where the hell is the boy? So that's why the switch makes sense. You need a baby to kill, as awful as that was to type out.

I should really drop it :(

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Obviously the OP is completely out of whack.

But even if his face isn't destroyed, is it obvious to others it wasn't Aegon? Rhaenys is too old to switch. They switched Arya, who of course was way older, but even Jaime knows it's not Arya. And they can't smuggle him out because Tywin would say where the hell is the boy? So that's why the switch makes sense. You need a baby to kill, as awful as that was to type out.

The same way they had to switch Viserys and Daenerys, right?

[rystine]

Sorry, messed up on the edit.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

The same way they had to switch Viserys and Daenerys, right?

True, but then why did they even help Viserys and Daenerys escape? Especially Daenerys.

[Mladen]

True, but then why did they even help Viserys and Daenerys escape? Especially Daenerys.

Escape from where? Viserys and Deanerys were in Dragonstone first and then they went into exile. Varys had nothing to do with that.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

True, but then why did they even help Viserys and Daenerys escape? Especially Daenerys.

Varys had nothing to do with that. Aerys had Rhaella and Viserys shipped off to Dragonstone with Willem Darry, and Darry himself took Viserys and Dany to Braavos before the Baratheons could take Dragonstone.

My point is that they could have just smuggled Aegon (and Rhaenys!) to Dragonstone to be with their aunt and uncle and grandmother, and the lot could've eventually gotten to the Free Cities. No need for a switch.

[Mladen]

My point is that they could have just smuggled Aegon (and Rhaenys!) to Dragonstone to be with their aunt and uncle and grandmother, and the lot could've eventually gotten to the Free Cities. No need for a switch.

That`s why you could tell there was never switch, and it was just fabricated lie to make appearence and explain Aegon. Otherwise, how would you bring Blackfyre pretender to the Throne?

[Light a wight tonight]

The problem with the switch is that Varys would have to anticipate many events that can`t be predicted. He should have found a child similar to Aegon on appearence with his silver hair, then he would have to go on exact right time, hoping that Tywin`s forces didn`t sack the city and switch the baby. You have to admit, it`s not just bizarre, it`s crackpot to believe Varys actually managed to do that.

Varys absolutely had time to run down to Flea Bottom and find some guy who had a baby that looked a bit like Aegon and who would trade the kid for some wine. No trouble at all. (Pretend there's an irony smiley here)

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Varys had nothing to do with that. Aerys had Rhaella and Viserys shipped off to Dragonstone with Willem Darry, and Darry himself took Viserys and Dany to Braavos before the Baratheons could take Dragonstone.

My point is that they could have just smuggled Aegon (and Rhaenys!) to Dragonstone to be with their aunt and uncle and grandmother, and the lot could've eventually gotten to the Free Cities. No need for a switch.

But what do Darry's actions and Varys' have to do with each other? He wants to leave no trace of his hand on the exile of a Targaryen boy or he loses a head. So why collude with Darry (of whose smuggling we know that Ned is aware), or even bring Aegon to Dragonstone if they wanted to groom him for rule with the ever-Rhaegar loving Jon Connington (I forget the timeline of when JonConn becomes an exile but I'm fairly sure it's before these events)? It doesn't make sense to me to include Aegon with the other two who they later disregard. The whole point is no one knows Aegon until it's time for them to know.

And again I believe Aegon to be a Blackfyre only because of Illyrio's reaction before he sends Tyrion off to meet them and basically cries at the idea of not seeing Aegon, which no man would ever do unless his son was involved. Plus the whole soft as Serra's hand thing tipped me off.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

But what do Darry's actions and Varys' have to do with each other? He wants to leave no trace of his hand on the exile of a Targaryen boy or he loses a head. So why collude with Darry (of whose smuggling we know that Ned is aware), or even bring Aegon to Dragonstone if they wanted to groom him for rule with the ever-Rhaegar loving Jon Connington (I forget the timeline of when JonConn becomes an exile but I'm fairly sure it's before these events)? It doesn't make sense to me to include Aegon with the other two who they later disregard. The whole point is no one knows Aegon until it's time for them to know.

There are any number of people to pin Aegon and Rhaenys getting away on. Or if they want to keep them separate, send them to the Free Cities separately with an entourage and blame someone else for it. The point, yet again, is that the switch was never necessary. But in hindsight, you have to explain how your kid can be Aegon if Aegon's dead and boom, "Oh lol we switched them."

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

There are any number of people to pin Aegon and Rhaenys getting away on. Or if they want to keep them separate, send them to the Free Cities separately with an entourage and blame someone else for it.

I've read many of your posts and you seem to have a brilliant handle on thematic representation of certain events (particularly in the Northern Conspiracy thread and Arbor Gold thread). So what do you think of the running image of Aegon's head being dashed upon a wall? Is it really just to entice the concept, for the not so adept reader, that Aegon is actually Aegon Targaryen? Sort of a seed planted for an ultimate red herring?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I've read many of your posts and you seem to have a brilliant handle on thematic representation of certain events (particularly in the Northern Conspiracy thread and Arbor Gold thread). So what do you think of the running image of Aegon's head being dashed upon a wall? Is it really just to entice the concept, for the not so adept reader, that Aegon is actually Aegon Targaryen? Sort of a seed planted for an ultimate red herring?

I think the reminder that the baby's face was destroyed serves to show that the idea of a switch works best in hindsight — while it's true that a destroyed face might prevent people from recognizing Aegon, it's equally true that Varys had no way of knowing that Gregor would kill the baby in such a way until after it had already happened; hell, he had no surefire way to know that the child would get killed at all. The unrecognizable face better serves you if you're retrofitting a switch than to explain one that actually happened. Given that there was always a risk that the switch would be found out — a sizable one, actually — that's all the more reason to think the smarter thing would be to just smuggle the kid out and not even bother with a switch at all.

[Lord Damian]

The fact that Aegon's face was smashed beyond recognition gave Varys and Illyrio this opportunity.

[Ice Turtle]

The fact that Aegon's face was smashed beyond recognition gave Varys and Illyrio this opportunity.

Or maybe someone made sure it will be this way.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

You can`t? Have you noticed how many threads are opened similar to this in the past days. I wish the TV season ends once and we all return to good old discussions.

Too true :(

As ever you are a voice of reason. All the discussions I like to follow have been buried under an avalanche of inanity. The OP of this one takes the cake though.

[TalalOfDorne]

Like everyone already said, Elia would have known she wasnt holding her son. And if the switch were to happen in the middle of the chaos so she wouldn't notice, it would mean that Varys had just magically found a targ looking baby who is very close to age with Aegon.