It's NOT Jojen paste

[A Man Has Said]

Some people on this forum apparently subscribe to the macabre theory that what the Children of the Forest fed to Bran in his final chapter of "A Dance with Dragons" contained some of Jojen's blood, and that he had been sacrificed to obtain it. I'd like to present my argument against that, with some relevant quotes from the chapter in question.

First of all, the chapter establishes early on that Jojen, who was on the edge of death when he entered the cave, has recovered substantially since his arrival there. His improving condition is contrasted with the dwindling health of Brynden, whom we all believe to be Bloodraven. So let's put aside the idea that 'he was going to die anyway, he was so weak. Why not sacrifice him to make his death meaningful?'

LEAF: "He (Bloodraven) has lived beyond his mortal span, and yet he lingers. For us, for you, for the realms of mortal men. Only a little strength remains in his flesh.

BRAN: "What do the trees remember?"

"The secrets of the old gods," said Jojen Reed. Food and fire and rest had helped restore him after the ordeals of the journey, but he seemed sadder now, sullen, with a weary, haunted look about the eyes.

They've been in the cave at least a month, as GRRM indicates with his paragraphs opening describing the changing phases of the moon: ..crescent, ..fat and full, and now ..a black hole in the sky.

It's in this first month in the cave that Jojen and Meera inform Bran of his fate. They tell him that he will remain after they are gone, but not too much should be put into that statement because we soon learn;

JOJEN: "When they (The CotF) died, they went into the wood, into leaf and limb and root, and the trees remembered."

...

BRAN: "Where are the rest of you?"

LEAF: "Gone down into the earth, ..into the stones, into the trees."

So Bran is not just going to remain after Jojen and Meera are gone, but forever, because he's going into the roots of the trees. And they're talking VERY long term here; about a time after the giants are all gone, the unicorns, the mammoths, the CotF themselves, and finally the direwolves who will outlast them all (quite a positive portent for Bran and the Starks, really.)

Just as an aside, they also explain that unlike the normal CotF who become one with nature, ( = the old gods) when they die, greenseers have the rare privilege of doing this while they still live. Later on Bran explores the caves in Hodor's body, and discovers some of the CotF's greenseers, who have evidently been made nearly immortal by virtue of their having been wed to the weirwoods.

In the second and third months Bran learns much and more about the cave, the CotF, and his fate.

"The singers made Bran a throne of his own, like the one Lord Brynden sat, white weirwood flecked with red, dead branches woven through living roots."

..and BR teaches Bran to skinchange into animals other than Summer, beginning with a raven that has already been 'broken in' by a female CotF. Bran finds out that he can feel her presence within the Raven.

GRRM explicitly states that the party were eating well,

"And almost every day they ate blood stew, thickened with barley and onions and chunks of meat. Jojen thought it might be squirrel meat."

So they have a source of blood, and it isn't Jojen.

It is the beginning of their fourth month in the caves that Lord Brynden tells Bran, "It is time" for the next step. He is offered "A paste of weirwood seeds." That's what Leaf tells him it is, and there's no strong reason to believe differently.

Something about the look of it made Bran feel ill. The red veins were only weirwood sap, he supposed, but in the torchlight they looked remarkably like blood. ... "Will this make me a greenseer?"

"YOUR blood makes you a greenseer," said Lord Brynden. "This will help awaken your gifts and wed you to the trees."

...

It had a bitter taste, though not so bitter as acorn paste. The first spoonful was the hardest to get down. He almost retched it right back up. The second tasted better. The third was almost sweet. The rest he spooned up eagerly. Why had he thought it was bitter? It tasted of honey, of new-fallen snow, of pepper and cinnamon and the last kiss his mother ever gave him.

In that elaborate description of the taste of the weirwood paste there is NO mention of blood, and it is explicitly stated that it is BRAN's blood that makes him a greenseer. The only mention of the taste of blood in the chapter comes at the end when Bran is witnessing an ancient sacrifice through the eyes of a weirwood (which I believe to be Winterfell's heart tree.) So the evidence doesn't point to there being any of Jojen's blood in the paste, let alone the necessity for killing Jojen to obtain said blood. Just the opposite in fact.

I think that on top of the textual lack of evidence for the 'Jojen paste theory' and the actual textual evidence against, there's a strong magical argument against the theory as well:

If the marriage of Bran to the tree is accomplished by feeding Bran a part of the tree, wouldn't it make more sense for the other side of that to be feeding something of Bran to the tree?

(blood or maybe even semen - that would be the nearest equivalent to the weirwood seeds)

Anyway, the description of Brynden and the apparently near-immortal CotF greenseers has them all 'wed to the trees' by having weirwood roots growing through their bodies, so the trees eventually have full-time access to their blood. This is most likely the secret of their longevity. As for that, as far as we know weirwood trees themselves live practically forever.

[Kienn]

I like the jojen paste theory... it's a prime indicator for who the people are that will believe anything.

[Wise Fool]

Hmm... pretty solid. To play devil's advocate here...

Why would Jojen look "sadder now, sullen, with a weary, haunted look about the eyes" even though he's rested and getting better? Just because he's going to miss hanging out with Bran? Or possibly because he knows the day of his death is coming soon?

Bran is told that it is "your blood that makes you a greenseer." You interpret this to mean that his own blood, that is to say his genetic makeup or whatever, makes him a greenseer. But can this not also mean the blood of his relatives, that is to say, their literal blood, spilled as sacrifice? Isn't Jojen related to him, however distantly?

Also Jojen "thinks" it "might" have been squirrel meat they were eating. Wouldn't he know? His uncertainty makes me think that it might be some kind of meat that he's unfamiliar with the taste of... such as human meat. That's a bit of a stretch though, admittedly...

[JonNonRegis]

I find this reasoning irrefutable.

However, I continue to think JojenPaste would make an excellent marketing tie-in for the books. I picture a crimson toothpaste as offered by Crest or Colgate.

[TepidHands]

I thought "your blood" meant his First Men heritage and warging ability, more than the actual stuff in veins and arteries.

I wonder if Jojen is haunted and sad because while he wants to go back to Greywater Watch; the trip north nearly killed him, and I think he knows he'll die when he finally gets there.

[King of Winters]

I hate the Jojen Paste Theory, so yeah, I agree with you.

[A Man Has Said]

I like the jojen paste theory... it's a prime indicator for who the people are that will believe anything.

Good point. Love it! :agree:

Hmm... pretty solid. To play devil's advocate here...

Why would Jojen look "sadder now, sullen, with a weary, haunted look about the eyes" even though he's rested and getting better? Just because he's going to miss hanging out with Bran? Or possibly because he knows the day of his death is coming soon?

Bran is told that it is "your blood that makes you a greenseer." You interpret this to mean that his own blood, that is to say his genetic makeup or whatever, makes him a greenseer. But can this not also mean the blood of his relatives, that is to say, their literal blood, spilled as sacrifice? Isn't Jojen related to him, however distantly?

Also Jojen "thinks" it "might" have been squirrel meat they were eating. Wouldn't he know? His uncertainty makes me think that it might be some kind of meat that he's unfamiliar with the taste of... such as human meat. That's a bit of a stretch though, admittedly...

I think Jojen looks sad and sullen because he does know that he's never going to return to his home, nor grow up to have a normal life, raise a family, succeed his father as Lord of Greywater watch. It's a long time until spring, and the chapter explicitly states that all manner of undead wights - men, women, children and animals - are for some reason being drawn to the entrance to the cave. The Others seem to know that some shit is going down in there and are trying as much as they can to prevent it, or to keep it the effects of what's happening to Bran at a minimum. I said Jojen was not dead yet, not part of the paste. I didn't say he was ever going to get out of that cave alive. He KNOWS he's not.

"You interpret this to mean that his own blood, that is to say his genetic makeup or whatever, makes him a greenseer. But can this not also mean the blood of his relatives, that is to say, their literal blood, spilled as sacrifice?"

That is a very interesting point, and yes I did interpret blood as "Bran's genetic makeup." It could still mean "the blood of his relatives" as well, and not be Jojen though. It could be that the blood of victims sacrificed to the weirwoods in the past, for thousands of years, could have some effect. Both Starks' victims and Starks who were victims.

ETA: Tepid Hands, I was typing this when you posted, but I think that I covered both your points without even reading them. I hope you agree.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I think the question is whether the red stuff in the paste contains Jojen's blood, not that the entire paste was made of jojen. It's clearly a concoction of weirwood seeds ground into a paste, but again, was the blood of a green-dreamer added to it to "awaken" his third eye?

The last quote doesn't state that it doesn't require blood to made him a greenseer, it just indicates that he's already a greenseer because of his own blood, ie heredity, but that whatever is in the paste (something that looks remarkably like blood mind you) is required to awaken his gift.

[Greymoon]

So...Bran is feeding on weirwood trees and the trees are feeding on Brynden/CotF. Right? makes sense.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I used to doubt it too. But no more. Aside from the usual arguments for and against (), I've noted what I think are three subtle hints in Clash & Storm of what's to come. When Jon & Qhorin were running from Rattleshirt they mixed horse blood in their oates and Jon gaged on it. Arya thought of the taste of blood--completely out of context--when she entered the weirwood csve of the BWB. Jon gaged when Aemon gave him milk of the poppy that mingled with blood in his mouth from biting his lip.

[A Man Has Said]

Leaf tells him it's a paste of weirwood seeds. We've been told from the beginning, in every description we have of weirwoods, that their sap is blood red, as are their leaves. While I wouldn't say that it's impossible that they would mix blood into it, even human blood, it isn't at all likely. If they needed the blood of a greenseer to seal the deal, the trees already have access to Bloodraven's or the CotF greenseers, which one would think would be more powerful than Jojen's.

By the way, one thing I find really interesting in this chapter is Bloodraven's instructions to Bran on how to 'enter into the tree' much as he enters into Summer, Hodor, and his practice ravens. We are told that only one in a thousand are greendreamers, like Jojen. One in a thousand are skinchangers, like Varamyr, Orell, and Bran's siblings.

!!!Ding ding ding ding ding!!! It dawns on me for the first time re-reading this chapter for the post EXACTLY why both talents are necessary for what Bran is doing.

He is SKINCHANGING INTO THE WEIRWOOD TREE!! (In fact all weirwood trees everywhere, and possibly for all time.)

[Jon Blackfyre]

I have to say, I was never even thinking about Jojen paste being a possibility, and now that you have refuted it so thoroughly, I never will.

This just makes me want more Bran chapters and see where his new powers take him though. What are we going to see and what will he be able to do next? Warg into a pack of a hundred wolves... See through the Isle of Faces weirwoods after the tourney at Harrenhall and see some secrect meeting of Rhaegar and Lyanna... BLOW SHIT UP WITH HIS MIND!!!!

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Leaf tells him it's a paste of weirwood seeds. We've been told from the beginning, in every description we have of weirwoods, that their sap is blood red, as are their leaves. While I wouldn't say that it's impossible that they would mix blood into it, even human blood, it isn't at all likely. If they needed the blood of a greenseer to seal the deal, the trees already have access to Bloodraven's or the CotF greenseers, which one would think would be more powerful than Jojen's.

The paste is definitely made of weirwood seeds, there's no one questioning that. As for the red it could certainly just be the sap, but as you admit here, it could also have Jojen's magical blood mixed in. As for Bloodraven, I don't think he's got much blood left, certainly none to spare if the "awakening paste" requires blood, and as for the CotF, are we sure they even bleed and if they do that it's red?

It certainly isn't proven to be Jojen's blood in the paste by any stretch of the imagination, but it's also certainly possible. There are examples all throughout the books of blood being used in magic.

By the way, one thing I find really interesting in this chapter is Bloodraven's instructions to Bran on how to 'enter into the tree' much as he enters into Summer, Hodor, and his practice ravens. We are told that only one in a thousand are greendreamers, like Jojen. One in a thousand are skinchangers, like Varamyr, Orell, and Bran's siblings.

!!!Ding ding ding ding ding!!! It dawns on me for the first time re-reading this chapter for the post EXACTLY why both talents are necessary for what Bran is doing.

He is SKINCHANGING INTO THE WEIRWOOD TREE!! (In fact all weirwood trees everywhere, and possibly for all time.)

Yes, certainly, a normal skinchanger can do it with animals, a greendreamer can "tap into" the knowledge of the Old Gods (ie past greenseers) network only during dreams, and with no control over what they are shown. My guess is they are basically a receptor and can see what the Old Gods are telling them through dreams. And a green seer can skinchange not just animals, but plants, and rock, and possibly even the air itself. They can control what they see, and they can communicate to green dreamers through their dreams, and potentially skin change into many things at once.

[Pearlthegirl]

Cool. I never bought the Jojen paste theory either. Your disproval is a service.

[A Man Has Said]

I have to say, I was never even thinking about Jojen paste being a possibility, and now that you have refuted it so thoroughly, I never will.

This just makes me want more Bran chapters and see where his new powers take him though. What are we going to see and what will he be able to do next? Warg into a pack of a hundred wolves... See through the Isle of Faces weirwoods after the tourney at Harrenhall and see some secrect meeting of Rhaegar and Lyanna... BLOW SHIT UP WITH HIS MIND!!!!

I really like your Isle of Faces idea, whether it's a meeting between Rhaegar and Lyanna or a reveal of who the Knight of the Laughing Tree is. As far as the blowing shit up with his mind - mmmnn, not so much. It has too much of a Doctor Evil, sharks with lasers vibe to it.

The paste is definitely made of weirwood seeds, there's no one questioning that. As for the red it could certainly just be the sap, but as you admit here, it could also have Jojen's magical blood mixed in. As for Bloodraven, I don't think he's got much blood left, certainly none to spare if the "awakening paste" requires blood, and as for the CotF, are we sure they even bleed and if they do that it's red?

It certainly isn't proven to be Jojen's blood in the paste by any stretch of the imagination, but it's also certainly possible. There are examples all throughout the books of blood being used in magic.

Yes, certainly, a normal skinchanger can do it with animals, a greendreamer can "tap into" the knowledge of the Old Gods (ie past greenseers) network only during dreams, and with no control over what they are shown. My guess is they are basically a receptor and can see what the Old Gods are telling them through dreams. And a green seer can skinchange not just animals, but plants, and rock, and possibly even the air itself. They can control what they see, and they can communicate to green dreamers through their dreams, and potentially skin change into many things at once.

Yeah, when I said I think it's possible but not likely, I was thinking of odds in the range of a million to one against there being any blood of any kind in that paste.

If you read the prologue to "A Dance with Dragons" Varamyr's experience of death is very much as though he's skinchanging into everything at once. But he's also losing his consciousness of who he is, so achieving what the House of Black and White want for Arya - becoming no-one. IOW, death is death.

Valar Morghulis

[Whitering]

I don't like the Jojen paste theory at all. So far as the Singers know the Crannogment are their last descendants in Westeros. As I've stated before, I highly doubt the Singers were sacrificing each other. They might have told the humans that sacrifice was part of the religion as a humourous way to get them to off each other, but sacrifice makes no sense for the Singers themselves.

However, arguing for the paste theory is that the Singers and most definitely Blood Raven probably see Jojen and Meera as distractions from Bran's duty.

[Jon Blackfyre]

I really like your Isle of Faces idea, whether it's a meeting between Rhaegar and Lyanna or a reveal of who the Knight of the Laughing Tree is. As far as the blowing shit up with his mind - mmmnn, not so much. It has too much of a Doctor Evil, sharks with lasers vibe to it.

He guy can dream can't he? Looking for sharks with lazers on their friggin heads and all you give me is ill-tempered seabass.

But seriously, ever since we got to see the Stark family flashback from Bran their the Winterfell Heart Tree I felt something more has to come of this that will have direct impact on the story. I mean that seems obvious, but in a way to reveal things we have been wondering about and not just give a look in to different areas in the present on the fly.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Yeah, when I said I think it's possible but not likely, I was thinking of odds in the range of a million to one against there being any blood of any kind in that paste.

If you read the prologue to "A Dance with Dragons" Varamyr's experience of death is very much as though he's skinchanging into everything at once. But he's also losing his consciousness of who he is

I think it's unlikely, but not in the million to one range. Maybe 5-10 % that there's some Jojen blood in that paste. As for Varamyr's death, certainly, that's how it works for those with magical blood. They can skinchange into another creature for a second life, but over time, they lose their past life, and in the final death, they become a part of all of it. The Weirwoods are kind of like the trees from Avatar that let people with the gift tap into their ancestors.

[Crowford]

Obviously, this is not something that could be proofed or refuted until the next book comes out, so let's leave the idea of absolute proof aside.

I think you are placing to much emphasis on a few misconception that crop up in this discussion from time to time (like Bran thinking the paste tastes like blood, which he never does), and too little on other factors. The main reason I adhere to this theory is Jojen's behavior. He gets worse and worse on the track north, yet is convinced that he will survive. Sure, that he apparently knows the day of his death could mean that it's something far off, but it seems more likely that he thinks it's close and that he knows the circumstances. Then the Children nurse him back to health, yet he becomes sad and sullen, staring out of the cave for hours on end. He knows he is not going to leave it.

You said that this could mean he knows that he will not go south again, because he will be killed by Wights along the way or die of exposure. But really, what makes a more interesting story?

a ) Jojen is sad because he knows the way back is so dangerous that he likely dies, and he foresaw himself reaching the Greenseer cave and thus knew he wouldn't die on the way there. He does die on the way back, though.

b ) Jojen knew from the beginning that his quest was not only to lead Bran to Bloodraven, but also to die in the cave. He gets sad because he knows that his sacrifice is imminent. He knows exactly how he will die, because this kind of death is the one needed to fulfill his mission. He feels isolated, because he can't tell Bran about it, because otherwise Bran wouldn't accept going through with it.

Also, the fact that Bran witnesses what is probably a ritual killing is very foreshadowing.

[A Man Has Said]

He guy can dream can't he? Looking for sharks with lazers on their friggin heads and all you give me is ill-tempered seabass.

LOL! :lmao:

But seriously, ever since we got to see the Stark family flashback from Bran their the Winterfell Heart Tree I felt something more has to come of this that will have direct impact on the story. I mean that seems obvious, but in a way to reveal things we have been wondering about and not just give a look in to different areas in the present on the fly.

YES!! :agree:

It's not just a great plot device, it's a good way for GRRM to introduce a 'super POV' into the series, someone who can clear up all the loose ends and unanswered questions without resorting to dialogue, dreams or reminiscence.