What's with the Sandor “Hotness”?

[juanml82]

This is where I'm confused. You continually say Sandor's feelings for Sansa are platonic, but then argue that they have been "symbolically married" and he has sexual and romantic feelings for her. I kind of think we're arguing the same thing. Sandor desires Sansa, but also respects the person she is in a platonic sense, wanting her to regain her own agency. He wants her to be empowered to make her own choices, including making a choice as to whether she wants him or not. But he also desires her, but he'll only truly want her when she regains full control over her own agency and she makes an active decision. Am I close?

Maybe he just doesn't want to mess with the King's chick/toy. I mean, if in real life it's not a wise idea to seduce and hook up the boss' girlfriend, it's likely to be rather worse in Westeros and when "the Boss" happens to be Joffrey.

The Hound is old enough to have fallen in love before (which doesn't mean he's good at loving - he probably isn't)

[Le Cygne]

The Hound was hella terified about Sansa's fate.

I agree with everything! And the above is the KEY thing. He messed up and he's blaming himself for what happened to her.

Making her sing, he was stalling for time (it made perfect sense when the official app put it this way, he was "trying to work up the courage to take her with him out of the city"). He was sorry he left her there alone. She felt the same way, wished she had gone with him and she kept framing it that way, he left me.

To be more blunt, it's simple, actually. Sandor wants Sansa. Sansa wants Sandor. Sandor wants Sansa for herself. Sansa wants Sandor for himself. That's it.

Yes! That's it in a nutshell.

No, he's not traditionally hot, but it makes no matter. Sansa finds him attractive. I edited my post to add that Sansa is attracted to his raw masculinity. She's gotten over the pretty-boy aesthetic.

Yes! I'm just going to say yes to everything you say.

Also, to address the OP who used a deleted clip to represent their relationship in the book, even there Sansa is not terrified of the Hound.

The "terrified" thing always makes me laugh. That's so off the mark. I think if she said jump at this point, he'd ask how high.

Sandor is the one who makes the sexually charged comment that she's "almost a woman now" before catching himself and drawing back. His reaction to Sansa's fate at the inn is the reaction of a man who lost a love--he's gutted. The constant attempt to discuss her, to speak her name, with Arya, is evidence of a man in love. All of their interactions involve him touching her and trying to get her to look at him. No, that's not platonic.

YES!!!!

He is not the best choice, but if it is to happen it would be her choice and give her character agency. In that way it is very like Jane Eyre and even more in line with Jamaica Inn.

This is in the tradition of classic romances. Those are two great examples. I think there must be people out there who want to read books about mild mannered modern men behaving perfectly properly, but I'm not one of them.

Lots of parallels in Jane Eyre, down to the words, she likes Mr. Rochester's "ferocity" and there's even a "quiet island" quote. I would place good money Mr. M. had that one cracked open a time or two while he was writing this.

I don't know who the fuck Loki is and how this character factors into anything. That aside, way to misunderstand Sandor Clegane. Yes, he advises Sansa to don her courtesty armor as a way to protect herself. And, thankfully, Sansa takes said advice, advice that literally saved her life. He's coaching her how to survive the viper's pit. She gets it. She gets him. He gets her.

Sansa understands Sandor's emotional state when he behaved as deplorably as he did. He was suffering from battle fatigue and PTSD. She gets the fear of fire. And Sandor was incredibly remorseful for his actions. It doesn't necessarily excuse those actions, but he behaved deplorably and hates himself for it. But I do think Sansa knows that Sandor would NEVER hurt her.

Yes! And she makes that pretty clear!

But it isn't platonic.

I have no idea where they are getting this from, it's like they missed the whole story.

The fact is, Sansan is there in the books, she imagines a kiss from him, thinks about him constantly and measures up everyone else to him, and he can't shut up about her.

That about sums it up.

[DogLover]

Maybe he just doesn't want to mess with the King's chick/toy. I mean, if in real life it's not a wise idea to seduce and hook up the boss' girlfriend, it's likely to be rather worse in Westeros and when "the Boss" happens to be Joffrey.

The Hound is old enough to have fallen in love before (which doesn't mean he's good at loving - he probably isn't)

Sandor does know better than to mess with the king's betrothed, yet he continually places her interests in front of Joffrey's. He gently handles her when Joff is forcing her to look at her father's head on a pike. He gently lifts her from her bed when Joff orders him to manhandle her. He abandons his station to save Sansa from the rioters. He doesn't beat her when ordered. Not only that, he yells "Enough!" and then covers her with his cloak. He lies to Joffrey about Dontos to support Sansa. And he places himself in grave danger when he goes to her room to offer her an escape.

There is no textual evidence to support that Sandor has ever been in love before, and some to support differently. Specifically the Elder Brother's testimony about Sandor never receiving love and never offering love.

ETA: And I do think Sandor confessed his feeling toward Sansa to the EB, but the EB couldn't reveal that to Brienne.

[Le Cygne]

In that way, Sansa is really not that different from Dany. She's never really gotten to choose her own lover/love interest -- people, men, keep making those choices for her (and the one time she does choose for herself, Joffrey, he turns out to be the worst of the lot). Sansa likes Sandor for who he is, and more powerfully to her, he likes her for who SHE is, without designs on property or title or whatever. That is attractive for a woman/girl. That's why, even though so many people hate Daario, or rather Dany's relationship with him, I actually support it, because it's the first time that Dany's ever gotten to choose the person she loves. Similarly, I feel that way about Sansa and her romantic feelings toward the Hound.

Yes to all of this. (And this is coming from a Daario fan, too. :))

[Le Cygne]

You can try to read it as a horror novel. That'd probably improve it. Then when he's in her bedroom every night watching her sleep without her knowing about it, or when he fucks with her car so she can't see her friends, or when there's a demon baby inside of her breaking her spine it's actually not so insane.

Is that what it's about? I had no idea, I just thought something to do with teenage vampires. I'll stick with the classics.

[1234567]

Is that what it's about? I had no idea, I just thought something to do with teenage vampires. I'll stick with the classics.

Good idea. The classics tend to have more gripping plot lines than such things as Twilight....even those classics that involve Vampires.

[direwienerdog]

If there is any thing to Sandor/ Sansa relationship over and above what I'm reading, I can't see it going anywhere. However stranger things have happened in fantasy novels and make no mistake, this is fantasy. The rules of fantasy are there are no rules. I have read hundreds of fantasy books. Does it make me an expert? It

makes me expect the unexpected. I don't see it happening myself, but by no means can I dismiss it.

It seems many fine minds on this board have deconstructed, analyzed and come up with very compelling arguments for and against certain scenarios. I appreciate your work and respect most of you. There is such a thing as paralysis by analysis.

I think many of these fine minds are at this stage.

Most of the arguments here have been hashed over so many times that you feel compelled to tell people they are wrong. Many of you are very gentle with your discusstions and many come off as pompous elitists assholes.

This is fantasy writing. It's not "Little Women" or any other literary classic so many of your schools of thought may or may not apply. Keep that in mind please.

Maybe I'll come back after WoW has been publisher's

Don't let the "experts" push you around. Your opinion matters just as much as theirs.

[Le Cygne]

This is fantasy writing. It's not "Little Women" or any other literary classic so many of your schools of thought may or may not apply.

Ah, but you are forgetting, there are fantasy classics, too. I've read them all. Good writing is good writing, and I think this is good writing.

And when it comes to romance, I might add, that you shouldn't be too quick to dismiss books like Little Women "or any other literary classic" - it might surprise you how timeless a good romance can be.

[Jon of the Dead]

If there is any thing to Sandor/ Sansa relationship over and above what I'm reading, I can't see it going anywhere. However stranger things have happened in fantasy novels and make no mistake, this is fantasy. The rules of fantasy are there are no rules. I have read hundreds of fantasy books. Does it make me an expert? It

makes me expect the unexpected. I don't see it happening myself, but by no means can I dismiss it.

It seems many fine minds on this board have deconstructed, analyzed and come up with very compelling arguments for and against certain scenarios. I appreciate your work and respect most of you. There is such a thing as paralysis by analysis.

I think many of these fine minds are at this stage.

Most of the arguments here have been hashed over so many times that you feel compelled to tell people they are wrong. Many of you are very gentle with your discusstions and many come off as pompous elitists assholes.

This is fantasy writing. It's not "Little Women" or any other literary classic so many of your schools of thought may or may not apply. Keep that in mind please.

Maybe I'll come back after WoW has been publisher's

Don't let the "experts" push you around. Your opinion matters just as much as theirs.

Amen! :bowdown:

[Mladen]

This is fantasy writing. It's not "Little Women" or any other literary classic so many of your schools of thought may or may not apply. Keep that in mind please.

I disagree with this. The themes in literature are tend to repeat, and many of Martin's themes can be found across the history of literature, and you can see the impact. A good writer isn't restricted by genre and is influenced by good writings, whether it comes from its genre or someplace else... As for elitist assholes, I haven't met any of them around here. Certainly, there are extremely well-read individuals, whose experience allows them to dig deep in Martin's work. I find that argument of yours extremely wrong.

Ah, but you are forgetting, there are fantasy classics, too. I've read them all. Good writing is good writing, and I think this is good writing.

And when it comes to romance, I might add, that you shouldn't be too quick to dismiss books like Little Women "or any other literary classic" - it might surprise you how timeless a good romance can be.

I agree. Heck, I did San/San analysis by paralleling it with Anna Karenina(although, I admit I would do much better job now :))... Some things are timeless...

[juanml82]

Themes and tropes, as ASOIAF shows, are things to be played with. If GRRM wants to give SanSan an unexpected turn, he'll do it, and probably rather well. The limit is plausibility and what the characters wouldn't do.

[Karmarni]

Think Jason Bourne, Severus Snape, Han Solo, Sawyer from Lost, Captian Jack Sparrow, John Constantine. All mainly dark anti-heroes who many have considered ‘hot.’

Sandor is drawn to Sansa, both emotionally and physically. He’s sarcastic, prideful, and protective. He gives her advice on how to survive at court; she takes it and survives. He kills for her when he brings her back safe from the mob. He cares for her: “see to that cut.” He’s harsh and violent, but he cares. And he’s the only one who does care about her since the Ned bit it. Everyone else is using her.

He turns his ferocity on Sansa and it challenges her. She likes this and wishes Dontos had more of it. He’s a strong, manly killer, but he cries, showing his vulnerability. He is learning and getting better: i.e. “this thing about your mother.” Has he screwed up? Mightily. Does that mean he cannot learn? Or have regret? He does not read to me like a one-note killer. The Stark girls have had their she-wolf effect on him.

That Sansa actually misremembers a kiss from him is like icing. She wished he was there, thinks of him often and seems to be looking for him. She ends up in aFfC seemingly mad that he left her.

Yes, it is messy. Violent – her blood, his blood and that bloody cloak keeps appearing. But he treats her “not ungently.” The way he talks is harsh, sometimes rude, but it is violently poetic: “a hound will die for you, but never lie to you.” Yes, he threatens her. He does not want his story told, for instance. He was abused and he carries that on his face for the entire world to see. But he wouldn’t have carried out the threat: GRRM makes sure he did not beat her. He noticed she was “almost” a woman; therefore, not ready yet for anything more than a song, like in singing. And Sansa gave that song, at knife point, and he does regret it. He regrets leaving her. If he had known, somehow that she would be married to Tyrion, he would have taken her with him even if that whole scene was a mess. That he wanted to “fuck her bloody” and “rip her heart out” shows the violence of his feelings. He, in fact, did not do that. He did not even kiss her.

Is the Hound appealing? Yes. Let’s just say I think he meant every bit of it when he said he would kill anyone who hurt her. Again, would I want that in that fantasy world, as a maiden? Especially if I was Sansa? Yes, I most definitely would.

Is the Hound hot? Search is your friend – do one on the forum for “butterface.” Six and half feet tall (or whatever the current debate is), in the prime of his life, skilled warrior, “muscled like a bull”, a big man. Some women like the shy, bookish, geeky guy; some like the football type. It’s all relevant isn’t it?

[Ser Pigeon Pie]

I think a lot of readers see Sandor Clegane as a potential romantic figure for Sansa because 1) unlike any other male in her life who isn't blood related , Sandor cares for Sansa for herself, not for any kind of claim she can potentially bring him. 2) Sansa returns his affections, and recognizing this recognizes Sansa's agency, which to this point has been stripped from her.

To be more blunt, it's simple, actually. Sandor wants Sansa. Sansa wants Sandor. Sandor wants Sansa for herself. Sansa wants Sandor for himself. That's it.

No, no, no, and no.

There's no way Sansa would feel anything romantic towards The Hound. She didn't feel anything for Tyrion who was forced on to her, even though he showed way more kindness towards her than Sandor ever will.

IMO it was just a lesson for Sansa that not all good-looking knights are chivalrous, and not chivalrous knights are good-looking.

Unless, of course, she likes the bad boys.

[Mladen]

There's no way Sansa would feel anything romantic towards The Hound. She didn't feel anything for Tyrion who was forced on to her, even though he showed way more kindness towards her than Sandor ever will.

And that's the deal... She could feel something for someone who wasn't forced on her like Tyrion...

[Dicer]

Think Jason Bourne, Severus Snape, Han Solo, Sawyer from Lost, Captian Jack Sparrow, John Constantine. All mainly dark anti-heroes who many have considered ‘hot.’

Han Solo is a dark anti-hero? And Jason Bourne?

He turns his ferocity on Sansa and it challenges her. She likes this and wishes Dontos had more of it. He’s a strong, manly killer, but he cries, showing his vulnerability.

That Sansa actually misremembers a kiss from him is like icing. She wished he was there, thinks of him often and seems to be looking for him. She ends up in aFfC seemingly mad that he left her.

Is the Hound appealing? Yes. Let’s just say I think he meant every bit of it when he said he would kill anyone who hurt her. Again, would I want that in that fantasy world, as a maiden? Especially if I was Sansa? Yes, I most definitely would.

Is the Hound hot? Search is your friend – do one on the forum for “butterface.” Six and half feet tall (or whatever the current debate is), in the prime of his life, skilled warrior, “muscled like a bull”, a big man. Some women like the shy, bookish, geeky guy; some like the football type. It’s all relevant isn’t it?

This kind of thinking annoys me a bit. The big, strong man who is all violent and rageful and forces himself on women (In this case a child prisoner) because of his manpain and that women actually like and prefer that kind of behaviour (Sandor Vs Dontos). It makes me think less of Sansa that she would desire someone like Sandor but right now I am attributing that to her naivete and to some kind of Stockholm Syndrome type attraction to the guy who handed out some bits of advice that helped her stay alive. Sandor was after all her jailor.

My thinking aligns more with that of Arya, who thought he did not deserve mercy and left him behind to die a painful death. But Arya has always been more perceptive than Sansa about people.

I agree that there are plenty of stories of women falling for the damaged, bad boy characters and there are plenty of fans for this type of pairing but the writing for this type of story is generally not very flattering to the female character, IMO.

[Blueberry Stark]

Think Jason Bourne, Severus Snape, Han Solo, Sawyer from Lost, Captian Jack Sparrow, John Constantine. All mainly dark anti-heroes who many have considered ‘hot.’

Sandor is drawn to Sansa, both emotionally and physically. He’s sarcastic, prideful, and protective. He gives her advice on how to survive at court; she takes it and survives. He kills for her when he brings her back safe from the mob. He cares for her: “see to that cut.” He’s harsh and violent, but he cares. And he’s the only one who does care about her since the Ned bit it. Everyone else is using her.

He turns his ferocity on Sansa and it challenges her. She likes this and wishes Dontos had more of it. He’s a strong, manly killer, but he cries, showing his vulnerability. He is learning and getting better: i.e. “this thing about your mother.” Has he screwed up? Mightily. Does that mean he cannot learn? Or have regret? He does not read to me like a one-note killer. The Stark girls have had their she-wolf effect on him.

That Sansa actually misremembers a kiss from him is like icing. She wished he was there, thinks of him often and seems to be looking for him. She ends up in aFfC seemingly mad that he left her.

Yes, it is messy. Violent – her blood, his blood and that bloody cloak keeps appearing. But he treats her “not ungently.” The way he talks is harsh, sometimes rude, but it is violently poetic: “a hound will die for you, but never lie to you.” Yes, he threatens her. He does not want his story told, for instance. He was abused and he carries that on his face for the entire world to see. But he wouldn’t have carried out the threat: GRRM makes sure he did not beat her. He noticed she was “almost” a woman; therefore, not ready yet for anything more than a song, like in singing. And Sansa gave that song, at knife point, and he does regret it. He regrets leaving her. If he had known, somehow that she would be married to Tyrion, he would have taken her with him even if that whole scene was a mess. That he wanted to “fuck her bloody” and “rip her heart out” shows the violence of his feelings. He, in fact, did not do that. He did not even kiss her.

Is the Hound appealing? Yes. Let’s just say I think he meant every bit of it when he said he would kill anyone who hurt her. Again, would I want that in that fantasy world, as a maiden? Especially if I was Sansa? Yes, I most definitely would.

Is the Hound hot? Search is your friend – do one on the forum for “butterface.” Six and half feet tall (or whatever the current debate is), in the prime of his life, skilled warrior, “muscled like a bull”, a big man. Some women like the shy, bookish, geeky guy; some like the football type. It’s all relevant isn’t it?

Other than the fact that I don't necessarily agree with the list of dark anti-heroes in your first paragraph, I LOVED your analysis. There is something really appealing going on between these two characters. There is sexual tension. Sure, it's not a relationship that I would pull for in real life, but in this fictional world it works. It is at times both tender, erotic, and threatening. Sometimes romance takes a dark and dangerous turn in novels, and for some reason people like me like it. Probably because it is unpredictable, appealing, and interesting. It doesn't seem like they will be destined for a life of happiness together, but at least the Hound is a person who Sansa chose to develop feelings for, even when she was physically not free, instead of someone like Joffery or LF who both try to enforce their wills on her. The Hound is harsh, but he loves her, admires her, and he is gentle with her against his own nature - that is incredibly alluring to most women.

[Ser Pigeon Pie]

And that's the deal... She could feel something for someone who wasn't forced on her like Tyrion...

But you would think she would have more love for Tyrion than for Sandor, regardless of whether or not they were forced on each other. He may be a Lannister but he at least has shown some kindness towards the Starks and has saved Sansa from Jofferys wrath on more than one occasion. The Hound has done nothing for Sansa except a drunken promise for rescue, in which she would have probably been raped then held for ransom. Clearly not the ideal lifestyle she would have chosen.

Sansa may have had some created some feeling towards Sandor, which would just tie in to her naivety and innocence. But it's just stupid to think that Sandor would have had any feelings towards her other than some sick fantasy which would would make him out to be a pervert and ruin his character.

[Karmarni]

Dicer: Mmm, did say 'mainly dark'. Was trying to think of ones who had their 'outside the mold' sides. Been awhile since I've seen any of those!

Sandor was never Sansa's jailor. He served the Lannister's and it was they who were her jailors. It was not his decision to take her captive.

Not sure how you mean he forced himself on her. Stockholm Syndrome is taking a pseudo-psychological stance. It does not apply to the novels, imo. It is not supported in the writing.

Arya herself later thinks she should have given him mercy.

All the characters are damaged and have a bad side. Just like in real life. Labeling as such explains nothing about their interactions as shown in the novels.

[Ser Pigeon Pie]

Wrong post!

[DogLover]

No, no, no, and no.

There's no way Sansa would feel anything romantic towards The Hound. She didn't feel anything for Tyrion who was forced on to her, even though he showed way more kindness towards her than Sandor ever will.

IMO it was just a lesson for Sansa that not all good-looking knights are chivalrous, and not chivalrous knights are good-looking.

Unless, of course, she likes the bad boys.

Yes. Yes. Yes.

I don't understand your Tyrion comparison. And he wasn't kinder than the Hound. As I stated in an earlier post, Sandor goes well out if his way to help and protect her. And, unlike Tyrion, he wants her for her, and he wants her to want him for who he is. And what does it matter if Tyrion was kinder? Does that automatically earn Sansa's desire? Does she owe him her sexual and romantic affections?