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  1. For those houses that are mentioned at bitterbridge i suggest you leave them in the sumup but make a note that they are not mentioned at the battle but likley to have been there because of them being present at bitterbridge.
  2. I only now saw that the OP would like us to return to the original subject of the tread so i wil not adress the many things wrong with wat you say here because of that. apollogys to the OP for my previeus post i had not seen that you had asked to return to the original topic.
  3. 1)Apparently you did not read everything again, it is explicitly stated that the greenblood is shallow, so a galley that has a shallow draft sure, a big merchant ship hell no. And on top of that you don't know how big Alyn's ships where he could have used ships with just 50 ores whe know for a fact from the battle of the Blackwater the royal fleet has such ships. 2)As Free Northman said the crops deid because there was no one to bring them in they did not die from frost, as a matter of fact frost is not mentioned at all its heavy rains that push the stalks into the ground. when that happens youy have to harvest imidiatly or the food will rot on the ground. So really its lack of people to harvest not the weather it self thats the problem. 3) There is ample evidence that can be used to make an educated guess, but if you want to go this route there is no evidence for how much food Dorne produces iether, so then the whole discussion becomes a mute point. 4) Yes you did and now you are backing out of it because the evidence points against you. 5) No it does not it states how far he got, it never links it to where Daeron was at the time.
  4. @Lord Varys Did some further diging and found this: The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne Though meager when compared to the Mander, the Trident, or the Blackwater Rush, the waters of the Greenblood are truly the lifeblood of Dorne. Most of the First Men who chose to remain in Dorne, instead of wandering north in search of sweeter lands, settled close to the banks of the Greenblood, digging canals and ditches to bring its life-giving waters to the trees and crops they planted. Most Dornish rivers are in full flood only after the rare (and dangerous) rainstorms. The rest of the year they are dry gullies. In all of Dorne, only three rivers flow day and night, winter and summer, without ever going dry. The Torrentine, arising high in the western mountains, plunges down to the sea in a series of rapids and waterfalls, howling through canyons and crevasses with a sound like the roar of some great beast. Rising from mountain springs, its waters are sweet and pure, but dangerous to cross, save by bridge, and impossible to navigate. The Brimstone is a far more placid stream, but its cloudy yellow waters stink of sulfur, and the plants that grow along its banks are strange and stunted things. (Of the men who live along those selfsame banks, we shall not speak). But the Greenblood's waters, if sometimes muddy, are healthful for plant and animal alike, and farms and orchards crowd the river's banks for hundreds of leagues. Moreover, the Greenblood and its vassals, the Vaith and the Scourge, are navigable by boat almost to their source (if shallow and plagued by sandbars in places), and therefore serve as the principality's chief artery for trade. Again it is stressed here that while navigable the river is shallow so again i really do not see anything beyond poleboats or galleys being able to sail up the Greenblood. As to food the hundreds of leagues along the rivers banks confirms that food is grown along they entire river unfortunatly it does not say anything about how far inland from the banks of the river the areable zone stretches. it also speaks of rare rainstorms so periods of drought do seem to be a thing in Dorne. I ommited a part of the quote becouse it is easier to speak of it seperatly: Most of the First Men who chose to remain in Dorne, instead of wandering north in search of sweeter lands, settled close to the banks of the Greenblood, digging canals and ditches to bring its life-giving waters to the trees and crops they planted. Others preferred to dwell beside the narrow sea; the eastern shores of Dorne are more forgiving than the southern, and soon many small villages arose, sustaining themselves on fish and crabs. The more restless of the First Men pushed onward and made homes for themselves in the foothills south of the Red Mountains, where storms moving north were wont to drop their moisture, creating a fertile green belt. Those who climbed farther took refuge amongst the peaks, in hidden valleys and high mountain meadows where the grass was green and sweet. Only the bravest and the maddest dared to strike out inland across the deep sands. A few of these found water amongst the dunes and raised holdfasts and castles on those oasis; their descendants, centuries later, became the Lords of the Wells. But for every man who stumbled on a well, a hundred must surely have died of thirst beneath the blazing Dornish sun. This speaks of the other parts of Dorne that could sustain the growth of food, but since the Greenblood is called the lifeblood of Dorne on multiple occasions they most likely do not produce as much as the Greenbloods banks. Still it is interesting to look at. The villages are said to sustain themselves so they do not seem to do more subsist so no great quantities of food there. The valleys and meadows of the mountains are only said to have green and sweet grass so i would expect that they have herds of animals there but no agriculture. the oasis would grow some food but how much? I do not expect an oasis to really be abundent in food. That leaves the fertile green belt in the foothills of the mountains, now here i expect to see a good amount of food. I still however do not believe that Dorne would produce more food then the North, but i know you will probably not agree with me.
  5. My post on navigability was in respons to you saying that the Greenblood had to be navigable to big ships, this is why i only mention that we also see some of what they grow in one of the quote's as a sidenote. I clearly state that it is a sidenote, but apparantly you read over that. We have had a discusion on what kind of crops you can grow in the North a few months ago in an other tread and if you remember i gave you the names of several crops that could easily survive summer snows, so your repeated mentioning of this is really not impressing me at all. For Dorne to produce an amount of food greater then the massive landmass that is the North, where we know for a fact that there are apple orchards in a place as far north as the Gift, the Greenblood would have to be a river compareble to the Nile which it is not. However that does not mean it does not produce a lot of food, because it does. Arrianne actually says it is the liveblood of Dorne. What i dispute is that they amount will exeed the output of the North. As to your Quote on dividing Dorne in half. Does he really need to get al the way up to Godsgrace to do that? they only source we have of how far he got is Stannis saying half way, and as i said galleys which make up most of the royal fleet have a low draft but that is why they are not used as transport and trade ships. So that still means that since they only ships we actually see on the Greenblood are poleboats and only hear of Oakenfist ships which are likely the Galleys of the royal fleet, it seems that with the information we have now that big ships like cogs and carracks are unlikely to be able to sail up the Greenblood.
  6. Like Free Northman said nobody disputes that food is grown along the Greenblood, but its the amount of food you suggest that i think is very unlikely. As to Alyn Velaryon yes he broke the planky town and sailed up the Green blood. But in wat? And how far up did he get? A galley has a low draft but that is the reason trade is done in cogs and carracks and i doubt they could sail up the Greenblood. Then there is the question of how far he got up the Greenblood a few miles or al the way to Godsgrace? We do not know. I looked up the relevant quote's from the books. A Dance with Dragons - Jon IV "When the Young Dragon conquered Dorne, he used a goat track to bypass the Dornish watchtowers on the Boneway." "I know that tale as well, but Daeron made too much of it in that vainglorious book of his. Ships won that war, not goat tracks. Oakenfist broke the Planky Town and swept halfway up the Greenblood whilst the main Dornish strength was engaged in the Prince's Pass." Stannis drummed his fingers on the map. "These mountain lords will not hinder my passage?" So here whe have Stannis saying he got up to half way. But no mention of wheter it was with galleys or ships with a deeper draft The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Daeron I Daeron divided his host into three forces: one led by Lord Tyrell, who came down the Prince's Pass at the western end of the Red Mountains of Dorne; one led by the king's cousin and master of ships, Alyn Velaryon, traveling by sea; and one led by the king himself, marching down the treacherous pass called the Boneway, where he made use of goat tracks that others considered too dangerous, to go around the Dornish watchtowers and avoid the same traps that had caught Orys Baratheon. The young king then swept away every force that sought to stop him. The Prince's Pass was won, and, most importantly, the royal fleet broke the Planky Town and then was able to drive upriver. Here Yandel says the drove upriver but not how far, nor does he say anithing about the ships used. The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Daeron I In 160 AC the Young Dragon himself was forced to return to Dorne to put down the rebels. He won several small victories as he fought through the Boneway while Lord Alyn Oakenfist descended once again upon the Planky Town and the Greenblood. Again Yandel does not tell us how far he got or what type of ships he used A Feast for Crows - The Queenmaker Once the kindling caught, they sat around the flames and passed a skin of summerwine from hand to hand . . . all but Darkstar, who preferred to drink unsweetened lemonwater. Garin was in a lively mood and entertained them with the latest tales from the Planky Town at the mouth of the Greenblood, where the orphans of the river came to trade with the carracks, cogs, and galleys from across the narrow sea. Here then we hear about trade ships but they do not sail up the mander they are met at the planky town by the Orphans. A Feast for Crows - The Queenmaker "It is a long journey," Arianne said, "but it will go easier once we reach the Greenblood. Some of Garin's people will meet us there, the orphans of the river. They live on boats, and pole them up and down the Greenblood and its vassals, fishing and picking fruit and doing whatever work needs doing Here we hear of boats actually on the Greenblood but they are poleboats not big ships. A Feast for Crows - The Queenmaker Within half a league they were riding over devilgrass and past olive groves. Beyond a line of stony hills the grass grew greener and more lush, and there were lemon orchards watered by a spider's web of old canals. Garin was the first to spy the river glimmering green. He gave a shout and raced ahead. Arianne Martell had crossed the Mander once, when she had gone with three of the Sand Snakes to visit Tyene's mother. Compared to that mighty waterway, the Greenblood was scarce worthy of the name of river, yet it remained the life of Dorne. It took its name from the murky green of its sluggish waters; but as they approached, the sunlight seemed to turn those waters gold. She had seldom seen a sweeter sight. The next part should be slow and simple, she thought, up the Greenblood and onto the Vaith, as far as a poleboat can go. They found the boat half a league downstream, hidden beneath the drooping branches of a great green willow. Low of roof and wide abeam, the poleboats had hardly any draft to speak of; the Young Dragon had disparaged them as "hovels built on rafts," but that was hardly fair. All but the poorest orphan boats were wonderfully carved and painted. This one was done in shades of green, with a curved wooden tiller shaped like a mermaid, and fish faces peering through her rails. Poles and ropes and jars of olive oil cluttered her decks, and iron lanterns swung fore and aft. Arianne saw no orphans. Where is her crew? she wondered. Here again we hear of boats on the Greenblood but again it is a poleboat. As a sidenote we do however get a glimps of what grows along the shores of the Greenblood, and that the Dornish use canals to get water to there fields. Obvieusly this means they extended the area of plantgrowth along the river arteficially and without constant maintenance of the canals the amount areable land would be much less. This would be costly so to afford this the must use as much of the land as they can for crops that could also be traded for the tools or the materials for the tools they would need for the maintenance. Conclusion: the only time we hear of how far Oakenfist got is from Stannis who says half way, and with they only boats mentioned on the Greenblood being poleboats of shallow draft, it seems likely he did this with galleys who also have a shallow draft. Big tradeships like cogs and carracks do not seem to sail up the Greenblood.
  7. certainly they grow food we see some of that in the arrianne chapter where they try to meet up with some of the orphans during her atempt to make myrcella queen. But in order for there to be more food then would be produced in the North you would most definetly need a river not unlike the Nile and the Greenblood is far from that. The Greenblood also does not start in the mountains it is a coming together of the Scourge and the Vaith rivers and both these rivers start in the desert presumably from oasis that are there. Also where do you get it from that big ships can sail up the Greenblood, as far as i know the boats there are al poleboats not unlike the Shy Maid, so not very big at all.
  8. I think you are saying sensible things in your post so i only want to ad something to your remarks on the Vale. I think they would have a lager amount of dismounted man at arms because of the difficulty of using horses in a mountain area.
  9. Your comparison to Ancient Egypt only works if the Greenblood has an annual flood like the Nile, since we never hear of this you yourself are making a false reasoning here. Without an annual flood the Greenblood would be more like the river Niger and thus the amount of food produced would be much less, it is estimated that along the river Niger they could only produce a tenth of what was produced along the Nile.
  10. good point and there where other petty kings beside and the Fowlers where not even the most powerfull kings. I think the real problem is how long you can field those numbers, one of the main reasons the Vulture King split his forces is that he was no longer able to feed and otherwise supplie them all.
  11. Since i have not seen nor was i precent for a reading of sons of the dragon i can only go on what tWoIaF says so i will just have to take your word for it when it comes to extra information. In tWoIaF it is not exactly clear where they come from, just that he gathers thousands of followers to stand against the Targaryens and that his numbers swell after some early victory's.
  12. Dude tWoIaF counts it as uprising not me, so your argument falls flat there. And i never said they where from the dornish marches i said adjacent area's so you are thinking to narrow here. Plus there would have outlaws from trougout westeros joining him they where basicaly the brotherhood of the kingswood of there day. I do agree with you that most of them would have come from Dorne, hell we know for a fact that atleast Lord Wyl joined him since he is captured by Lord Orys. Its just that i don't think al of the 30000 came from Dorne and that we should be careful not make conclusions on Dornish strength based on this since we don't know how many actually came from Dorne.
  13. This is assuming that al of the 30000 are from dorne. But since it is counted as one of the 4 uprisings against Aenys I we can asumme that people unhappy with Aenys rule or Targaryen rule in general from adjacent area's probably joined him aswell. As to spearwomen in Dorne GRRM adresses this in an SSM back in 2001: Do the women of Dorne fight? Some do. The Sand Snakes, for instance. But it's not the rule. Nymeria was a war leader but not a warrior -- that is, a commander rather than a combatent. Or does their "equality" to men only refer to the eldest child being heir instead of the eldest son? That's the big one, but their customs differ gives women more rights in other ways as well. Not to say that Dorne is an egalitarian society. Far from it. So yes the vulture kings forces could have some but it would not be many.
  14. Just a thought that occured to me while reading this tread, who took care of the dead before the silent sisters? The citadel is founded in the time before the andals and the faith, what if the faith just incorporated an already existing order into there ranks? This could also explain why they are al female when the stranger whom they are linked to is neither male nor female. This is offcourse pure speculation on my part but its just something that popped into my mind reading this tread.
  15. I still consider 600 the baseline and think that the number is that or close to it so in that regard i am still at the same point as in my first post on this tread. I also have not changed my mind on the quote he only confirms that he was outnumbered nothing more.