Did Elia Cheat on Rhaegar?

[Fire Eater]

I think there is a chance that Elia cheated on Rhaegar.

He [ulmer] claimed he'd once put an arrow through the hand of the White Bull of the Kingsguard to steal a kiss from the lips of a Dornish princess.

I think that Dornish princess was obviously Elia, with the White Bull as her honor guard on her way to KL to marry Rhaegar. I think this may be hint to her character. She was close with her brother Oberyn, and I think she may have shared some of his openness towards relationships. She is usually presented as frail and delicate, and those words are usually followed by innocent. I guess she really wasn't as innocent as we were led to believe. Naerys was also delicate and frail, yet she was rumored to be having an affair with Aemon the Dragonknight.

Part of it may have been as Barristan said, that hardly anyone really knew Rhaegar. He wasn't easy to understand, and this probably led to trouble with trying to establish a connection.

I am also taking a look at the last man who had two wives at the same time, Aegon the Conqueror. Aegon, like Rhaegar, was described as an enigma. His more warrior wife, Visenya, bore him only one son while Lyanna, the KoLT, bore Rhaegar only one son. That would leave Elia as the Rhaenys parallel, and Rhaenys had rumors of adultery.

Here is where my pot gets even more cracked, I think I know the man she had an affair with: Arthur Dayne. We had another Dornishman on the KG at the time, Prince Lewyn, and he had a paramour, not to say that Dornishmen are incapable of keeping vows of chastity.

Why Dayne? Whenever we hear of Arthur Dayne, we never hear anything bad and he is always thought and spoken well of from Jaime to Ned to Connington. If there was a word to describe him it would be "perfect." He is basically the model knight, the exemplar of chivalry. GRRM has a tendency to present things or characters that the reader aligns him/herself with only to have the defects shown, or characters to be set against like Jaime, only to find out the real reason he killed Aerys. For example, we are led to root for the Old Gods only for it to be revealed that the religion practiced human sacrifice.

I think Elia may have been having an affair with Arthur Dayne, and I think not out of lust or friends with benefits but love.

[WeaselPie]

no

[Rhymes with Weak]

I doubt it, the reasoning behind the theory is sound but I don't think enough evidence has been provided yet to make that connection. We all know Rhaegar deserves it though.

[Roddy the Ruin]

:tantrum:

Arthur Dayne is the paragon of honor and goodness.

[Florina Laufeyson]

You stole my crackpot.

Jerk.

To be fair, my crackpot was that Elia and Arthur had a thing going on or were at least in love, before Rhae-man entered the equation. BUT ITS STILL THE SAME CRACKPOT! :tantrum:

[Roddy the Ruin]

But in seriousness I can definitely see Elia having a thing for Arthur but Arthur not having one for her. That foul temptress could never turn Arthur from his honor.

[ARYa_Nym]

This sounds non consensual. I attacked her and her guards and stole a kiss from her not that she showed interest in me and gave me a kiss.

The parallel to Aegon's wives is superficial. Lyanna is no true warrior like Visenya. Put her in a battle and she could be killed quickly. Visenya could hold her own.

Jon is no Maegor. Plus, Maegor is probably more like Visenya than he is like Aegon so who knows if Visenya was even a good person. She was described as stern and unforgiving. They may have even plotted together against Rhaenys' children to get Maegor on the throne.

We know too little of Elia to say she is like Rhaenys.

Oberyn isn't married though and Elia obviously didn't resist marriage.

As for Arthur Dayne there is no evidence of this. Besides, if anyone was close friends with Rhaegar it was him. By having an affair with his wife he knows he is potentially putting the mother of Rhaegar's kids at risk because she can be killed for this affair.

[house martell 2]

It would add an extra dimension to the ToJ, It may have been hard for Dayne to have guarded the woman who "cheated" with his loves husband...

[Overlord of Skagos]

sure sure go on and make Rhaegar look like a good guy....wasn't it enough that Elia was cheated upon,left alone,raped and murdered? :angry2:

[Florina Laufeyson]

sure sure go on and make Rhaegar look like a good guy....wasn't it enough that Elia was cheated upon,left alone,raped and murdered? :angry2:

What? I think the theory actually, you know, gives Elia her own mind and passions?

[Fire Eater]

This sounds non consensual. I attacked her and her guards and stole a kiss from her not that she showed interest in me and gave me a kiss.

Then there is the question of why GRRM put that there?

I think the parallel to Aegon's wives is superficial.

Fixed that for you. ;)

Put her in a battle and she could be killed quickly. Visenya could hold her own.

That was because Visenya rode atop a huge dragon, Vhagar.

Jon is no Maegor. Plus, Maegor is probably more like Visenya than he is like Aegon so who knows if Visenya was even a good person. She was described as stern and unforgiving. They may have even plotted together against Rhaenys' children to get Maegor on the throne.

Never said Jon was Maegor. I think they would share only one aspect, but that is theory for another thread: both riding a black dragon: Balerion for Maegor, and Drogon for Jon.

Oberyn isn't married though and Elia obviously didn't resist marriage.

I never said Oberyn was married anywhere, just that he had an open view towards relationships as demonstrated with Ellaria. I also never said she resisted marriage. That argument doesn't exist anywhere here.

[ARYa_Nym]

What? I think the theory actually, you know, gives Elia her own mind and passions?

Not really because the theory started in threads where Rhaegar was called a cheater and then people started to question Elia. Well what if she was one too so Rhaegar doesn't look so bad.

She's committing treason. She puts her life and her children at risk. If she's gone she's not going to be there to protect her children. Her husband's second wife can come and push for their new children to inherit. Remember she does not know Lyanna or the Starks. Lord Rickard would appear to ambitious to the realm because he frankly was ambitious.

[Overlord of Skagos]

What? I think the theory actually, you know, gives Elia her own mind and passions?

Yes it does and I'm all for knowing more about her and how she handled all this mess about Lyanna and RR.

I'm just saying certain people are going to use this theory as a justification for Rhaegar's adultery...(not that anyone needs to justify it in Westeros sadly..)

[Failed to De-anon]

Uller was probably boasting and even if he wasn't a kiss taken from a lady when you robbed her and her party isn't indicative of her initiating, let alone, enjoying the kiss.

And yes, she was close to her brother, that doesn't mean that they share personalities. You can be close and still have nothing in common. Of course, her other brother Doran hasn't cheated on his own wife and they don't even live together so take that as you will.

As to your parallels, I don't know if I buy them. Naerys being frail? I am not saying frail folk can't have affairs, clearly they can, but, what does that have anything to do with anything when people of the most robust of health can cheat too? Rhaenys being the subject of rumors of infidelity; that's a stretch at best. Just because they are not the second coming of Xena: Warrior Princess, doesn't mean that all lady-like women cheat, either.

Where Arthur is concerned Arthur Dayne was thought to be a true knight, I don't see him cheating on his best friend, Rhaegar, with Rhaegar's wife and the future queen, when he is the guy from Dorne but he kept guard over Lyanna and ultimately died in the Tower of Joy, when her mere presence there would be a blight on Dornish honor.

I.m.o, I don't think Elia did cheat when there is no indication of her doing so and definitely not with Arthur Dayne.

[Fire Eater]

Yes it does and I'm all for knowing more about her and how she handled all this mess about Lyanna and RR.

I'm just saying certain people are going to use this theory as a justification for Rhaegar's adultery...(not that anyone needs to justify it in Westeros sadly..)

Polygamy doesn't count as adultery in societies that practice it.

Just because they are not the second coming of Xena: Warrior Princess, doesn't mean that all lady-like women cheat, either

That is a straw man argument as I have never stated nor implied that anywhere, no offense.

[Overlord of Skagos]

Polygamy dosn't count as adultery in societies that practice it.

so how exactly is Elia 'cheating'? [ i know..i know...applies only to the dudes :stillsick: ]

[ARYa_Nym]

Then there is the question of why GRRM put that there?

It's tidbits of information.

That was because Visenya rode atop a huge dragon, Vhagar.

No it's not. She's a legitimate warrior. She fought with Dark Sister. Lyanna is only capable of fighting squires and little boys. We don't have evidence of her fighting men with skill. She was never trained.

GRRM said that's why she was more of warrior than Rhaenys. Rhaenys also had a dragon but she's no Visenya either.

Lyanna is a good jouster which is not the same thing at all. That is more horseriding. Even there she didn't compete against the jousters of noted skill.

Never said Jon was Maegor. I think they would share only one aspect, but that is theory for another thread: both riding a black dragon: Balerion for Maegor, and Drogon for Jon.

Drogon is ridden by Dany. There may be theories for Jon but as for right now Jon isn't righting Drogon. That is still a superficial comparison. Oh Maegor and Jon rode a dragon of the same color. The two characters are nothing alike and they are not in the same position.

I never said Oberyn was married anywhere, just that he had an open view towards relationships as demonstrated with Ellaria. I also never said she resisted marriage. That argument doesn't exist anywhere here.

Not being married has a lot to do with it. He's not married and he isn't an heir. There is no pressure on him. He has more freedom than someone in Doran or Elia's position.

[Fire Eater]

It's tidbits of information.

I believe that a lot of the tidbits are meant to be clues that have purpose, relevance to the past or the rest of the story.

No it's not. She's a legitimate warrior. She fought with Dark Sister. Lyanna is only capable of fighting squires and little boys. We don't have evidence of her fighting men with skill. She was never trained.

GRRM said that's why she was more of warrior than Rhaenys. Rhaenys also had a dragon but she's no Visenya either.

Lyanna is a good jouster which is not the same thing at all. That is more horseriding. Even there she didn't compete against the jousters of noted skill.

To be fair Lyanna was sixteen when she died while Visenya was much older during Aegon's Conquest. I don't recall her having killed men in battle with Dark Sister. As for jousting, Lyanna still knocked three grown knights off their mounts, and she didn't joust with others because she wanted to unhorse the knights who were squired by the three guys who beat up HR. The real point of jousting was not to knock the opponent off his horse, but not to flinch. Fighting with a lance is still an essential skill for a knight.

Drogon is ridden by Dany. There may be theories for Jon but as for right now Jon isn't righting Drogon. That is still a superficial comparison. Oh Maegor and Jon rode a dragon of the same color. The two characters are nothing alike and they are not in the same position.

Never said it was perfect, and plenty of parallels have similar levels of superficiality. Joffrey wasn't Daeron II, the purported son of Naerys and Aemon who are the historical parallel for Cersei and Jaime, nor is Cersei Naerys.

Not being married has a lot to do with it. He's not married and he isn't an heir. There is no pressure on him. He has more freedom than someone in Doran or Elia's position.

Still that doesn't make it impossible for Elia to have an affair.

[Failed to De-anon]

That is a straw man argument as I have never stated nor implied that anywhere, no offense.

No offence taken at all, but, my point was simply because that Rhaenys and Elia may have certain personality traits, we don't know for a fact let alone for the parallel to be taken a lot more seriously. Simply because Rhaenys was interested in traditionally feminine arts like poetry and music, and Elia would have had some education in the same and there is no indication that Elia hated such arts is no guarantee that Elia cheated on Rhaegar like Rhaenys did with Aegon.

[ARYa_Nym]

A lot of the tidbits are meant to be clues that have purpose, relevance to the past or the rest of the story.

Not all of them. That tidbit didn't indicate consent anywhere.

To be fair Lyanna was sixteen when she died while Visenya was much older during Aegon's Conquest. I don't recall her having killed men in battle with Dark Sister. As for jousting, Lyanna still knocked three grown knights off their mounts, and she didn't joust with others becuase she wanted to unhorse the knights who were squired by the three guys who beat up HR. The real point of jousting was not to knock the opponent off his horse, but not to flinch. Fighting with a lance is still an essential skill for a knight.

Visenya's son Maegor was younger than Lyanna and was already a noted warrior by Lyanna's age. Kids start training young as squires and then they become warriors. Lyanna never had any training. She only played with Benjen. That's not evidence that she can go into war and fight with a sword like Visenya did with Dark Sister. It's indicated that she did kill men because GRRM said she fought with Dark Sister and we know that she was not the one who died.

Lyanna fought three men who were not known for being skilled. Anyways, being good at jousting doesn't mean that one is a good warrior is the point. They're two different things.

Lyanna may be closer to being like Visenya than Elia but she still isn't like her imo.

Never said it was perfect, and plenty of parallels have similar levels of superficiality. Joffrey wasn't Daeron II, the purported son of Naerys and Aemon who are the historical parallel for Cersei and Jaime, ror was Cersei Naerys.

It matters in this case because I was saying that Maegor takes after Visenya. So if one tries to say that a character is like Visenya that should be taken into account.

Still that doesn't make it impossible for Elia to have an affair.

I don't think anyone was saying it was impossible only that there is no evidence.