Reasons why i believe that rape and torture is NEVER okay

[jaimecersei]

I've seen that a lot of people on these forums derive glee and joy their hated characters being abused. A decent amount of people have the sentiment that "I don't feel sympathy for Theon being tortured by Ramsay because he killed 2 kids !!" or "I feel no sympathy for the fact that Robert repeatedly raped Cersei or during her Walk of Shame because she sends women to Qyburn to be tortured/killed and killed Robert's bastards". and then there are also some people who straight up delight in it.......

The thing is that at the end of the day continuing abuse only spreads more pain, cruelty and suffering. I think in general that GRRM is trying to show that abuse and trauma victims can easily turn into abusers ESPECIALLY in a society like Westeros which is so plagued with war, treachery and crime.

I DO NOT think that GRRM and the narrative in general is supposed to condone these kind of sadistic punishments. Cersei's walk of shame is JUST AS WRONG as her sending women to Qyburn and her sexually abusing baby Tyrion. Especially as her punishment was conducted by a misogynistic religious zealot and not even for her actual crimes. I HAVE SYMPATHY for Tyrion, the Blue Bard, Falyse and Senelle because Cersei abused the, and I FELT sympathy for Cersei when we found out how Robert repeatedly raped her and hit her throughout her marriage and during her Walk of Shame because ultimately I feel that it is part of the SAME fucked up abuse cycle. And I believe that the Walk of Shame was essentially sexual torture which is never OKAY in my opinion.

i can understand why Cersei is the way that she is. She perpetuates the misogynistic society of Westeros because she is ambitious and wants to be on top and because of self preservation. But I feel that as an educated and empathetic person in modern society that I KNOW BETTER than Cersei and should not be rooting for the High Septon during the Walk os Shame.

I feel the same exact way about Theon and his abuse. Come to think of it..the only time I that I felt a sense of justice for a character's comeuppance was when Tywin and Robert died since they were killed by the people they abused.

Thoughts???

What do you guys think??

Anyone else agree with me??

[Kienn]

Where's the line then?

If the walk of shame is "just as wrong" as torture and murder what else is? Is a punch to the face? Spitting in the face? Spitting in food? Accidentally sneezing in their direction?

[jaimecersei]

Where's the line then?

If the walk of shame is "just as wrong" as torture and murder what else is? Is a punch to the face? Spitting in the face? Spitting in food? Accidentally sneezing in their direction?

I don't understand what you are trying to say. But personally I do believe that the walk of shame was sexual torture. The threat of rape was present the entire time, there was a point during the chapter where I really did feel like Cersei was going to be raped by the mob.

[Kienn]

I don't understand what you are trying to say. But personally I do believe that the walk of shame was sexual torture. The threat of rape was present the entire time, there was a point during the chapter where I really did feel like Cersei was going to be raped by the mob.

I'm saying you're being very absolutist, everything is on the same level as torture and murder... You have no gradient at all?

[ghosts in winterfell]

I agree OP.

[Jojosh]

I think every character that has bad things happen to them is allotted in two categories characters who have done wrong and characters who haven't done wrong.

Hearing about all the poor nameless peasants being raped and tortured is no good but when its happening to a character who deserves it I feel a bit less about it.

No sorry there's no poor cersei for me, she obviously wanted to be a man growing up in a warped version of arya's tomgirl ideal but she is responsible for a lot of ill and harm done to other characters.

If only karma hit all the characters equally *cough*Dany*cough*

[jaimecersei]

I'm saying you're being very absolutist, everything is on the same level as torture and murder... You have no gradient at all?

I don't see how I'm being absolutist. How is Ramsay's treatment of Theon not torture???? Cersei was stripped completely naked and had to do a naked walk in which she was abused by a wild mob. There was definitely a chance in which she could have gotten raped. And we get the walk of shame from Cersei's POV, we know the effect it had on her.

[Cas Stark]

I don't understand what you are trying to say. But personally I do believe that the walk of shame was sexual torture. The threat of rape was present the entire time, there was a point during the chapter where I really did feel like Cersei was going to be raped by the mob.

I suspect the point is that "humiliation" is not the same as torture and murder. I suspect if you talked to anyone who had actually been sexually tortured if they would have chosen to walk naked through their city instead, you're going to get 100% of takers.

[Roddy the Ruin]

The Walk of Shame is sexist and horrible but I will never feel sorry for Cersei. She murdered her friend Melara when she was ten years old for having a CRUSH on Jaime. She twisted her baby brothers penis just to cause pain. And she wouldn't have been happy with any man she married, and don't pretend she is so innocent in her and Robert's marriage. If anything she was worse. She thinks everything she does is justifiable when in reality she is one of the worst people in the story. Jaime is better off to be rid of her. She PRETENDS to be the victim on the outside but in reality she is the offender.

Theon at least regrets what he has done and has shown that he has morals and a conscious. He IS a victim.

[jaimecersei]

I think every character that has bad things happen to them is allotted in two categories characters who have done wrong and characters who haven't done wrong.

Hearing about all the poor nameless peasants being raped and tortured is no good but when its happening to a character who deserves it I feel a bit less about it.

No sorry there's no poor cersei for me, she obviously wanted to be a man growing up in a warped version of arya's tomgirl ideal but she is responsible for a lot of ill and harm done to other characters.

If only karma hit all the characters equally *cough*Dany*cough*

I'm not condoning Theon or Cersei's evil actions though.

[jaimecersei]

The Walk of Shame is sexist and horrible but I will never feel sorry for Cersei. She murdered her friend Melara when she was ten years old for having a CRUSH on Jaime. She twisted her baby brothers penis just to cause pain. And she wouldn't have been happy with any man she married, and don't pretend she is so innocent in her and Robert's marriage. If anything she was worse. She thinks everything she does is justifiable when in reality she is one of the worst people in the story. Jaime is better off to be rid of her. She PRETENDS to be the victim on the outside but in reality she is the offender.

Theon at least regrets what he has done and has shown that he has morals and a conscious. He IS a victim.

You may want to read my post again. I make it very clear that I believe that both Theon and Cersei have caused a lot of pain and suffering and have been abusive.

[Roddy the Ruin]

You may want to read my post again. I make it very clear that I believe that both Theon and Cersei have caused a lot of pain and suffering and have been abusive.

my bad, I was responding to the part where you said Robert got what he deserved for the pain he caused and kinda got carried away :p

That's not to say I think he is a good man. I think he is just a broken man who lost who he thinks was the love of his life.

[jaimecersei]

my bad, I was responding to the part where you said Robert got what he deserved for the pain he caused and kinda got carried away :P

That's not to say I think he is a good man. I think he is just a broken man who lost who he thinks was the love of his life.

yeah i'm not excusing any of Cersei's actions, i just don't believe that sadistic sexual torture is ever justified. I would have liked it if Cersei got stabbed Lollys or something, but the Walk of Shame was extremely disturbing to me

[Roddy the Ruin]

yeah i'm not excusing any of Cersei's actions, i just don't believe that sadistic sexual torture is ever justified. I would have liked it if Cersei got stabbed Lollys or something, but the Walk of Shame was extremely disturbing to me

Yeah, the Walk as a punishment was very disturbing, as it is geared specifically to women who do nothing wrong (sex out of wedlock, adultery while in a forced, loveless marriage etc). But I found it impossible to feel sorry for Cersei during hers.

[jaimecersei]

Yeah, the Walk as a punishment was very disturbing, as it is geared specifically to women who do nothing wrong (sex out of wedlock, adultery while in a forced, loveless marriage etc). But I found it impossible to feel sorry for Cersei during hers.

I understand why people find it hard to have sympathy for Cersei, but personally I couldn't help but feel sorry for her because I feel like we got a good insight of how traumatized she really is...if you know what I mean?? I mean in order to feel better about herself, she reminds herself of how Robert thought she was beautiful and this was the same man that raped her and abused her. its just very fucked up in my opinion. cersei is a fucked up person.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

That Walk of Shame was incredibly disturbing to me. Yes Cersei is a horrible human being and highly problematic, but no way does she deserve that walk of punishment. What she should be punished for is killing those babies, enabling the abuse of Joffrey on Sansa despite the fact she also was abused by Robert, giving those people to Qyburn, delivering Jeyne Poole to Littlefinger etc, but reclaiming her agency and choosing to have sex? Oddly enough that is one of the positive things about her, as few as those things are.

[jaimecersei]

That Walk of Shame was incredibly disturbing to me. Yes Cersei is a horrible human being and highly problematic, but no way does she deserve that walk of punishment. What she should be punished for is killing those babies, enabling the abuse of Joffrey on Sansa despite the fact she also was abused by Robert, giving those people to Qyburn, delivering Jeyne Poole to Littlefinger etc, but reclaiming her agency and choosing to have sex? Oddly enough that is one of the positive things about her, as few as those things are.

also the High Sparrow is an extremely misguided person. He is going to create so much shit in TWOW in my opinion

[Cas Stark]

That Walk of Shame was incredibly disturbing to me. Yes Cersei is a horrible human being and highly problematic, but no way does she deserve that walk of punishment. What she should be punished for is killing those babies, enabling the abuse of Joffrey on Sansa despite the fact she also was abused by Robert, giving those people to Qyburn, delivering Jeyne Poole to Littlefinger etc, but reclaiming her agency and choosing to have sex? Oddly enough that is one of the positive things about her, as few as those things are.

She always had agency, and she always used sex as a weapon to help her get what she wanted, whether that has been the giving of it or the witholding it, she wasnt having sex with any of these men out of enjoyment, there was no relationship or even sexual attraction that we've ever seen to anyone but Jamie, she did in order to control them and get what she wanted out of them.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

If only karma hit all the characters equally *cough*Dany*cough*

She's lost in the desert, alone, maybe dying without food or clean water, probably she miscarried or sick and the cities she tried to rescue from slavery are actually turning against her. I think Karma has bitchslapped her enough already.

Yeah, the Walk as a punishment was very disturbing, as it is geared specifically to women who do nothing wrong (sex out of wedlock, adultery while in a forced, loveless marriage etc). But I found it impossible to feel sorry for Cersei during hers.

That depends on the readers as well. I don't feel sorry for her during her WoS because I don't see it as a punishment for what she's accused of but for all of the other stuff she did and caused pain to others.

[Light a wight tonight]

I've seen that a lot of people on these forums derive glee and joy their hated characters being abused. A decent amount of people have the sentiment that "I don't feel sympathy for Theon being tortured by Ramsay because he killed 2 kids !!" or "I feel no sympathy for the fact that Robert repeatedly raped Cersei or during her Walk of Shame because she sends women to Qyburn to be tortured/killed and killed Robert's bastards". and then there are also some people who straight up delight in it.......

The thing is that at the end of the day continuing abuse only spreads more pain, cruelty and suffering. I think in general that GRRM is trying to show that abuse and trauma victims can easily turn into abusers ESPECIALLY in a society like Westeros which is so plagued with war, treachery and crime.

I DO NOT think that GRRM and the narrative in general is supposed to condone these kind of sadistic punishments. Cersei's walk of shame is JUST AS WRONG as her sending women to Qyburn and her sexually abusing baby Tyrion. Especially as her punishment was conducted by a misogynistic religious zealot and not even for her actual crimes. I HAVE SYMPATHY for Tyrion, the Blue Bard, Falyse and Senelle because Cersei abused the, and I FELT sympathy for Cersei when we found out how Robert repeatedly raped her and hit her throughout her marriage and during her Walk of Shame because ultimately I feel that it is part of the SAME fucked up abuse cycle. And I believe that the Walk of Shame was essentially sexual torture which is never OKAY in my opinion.

i can understand why Cersei is the way that she is. She perpetuates the misogynistic society of Westeros because she is ambitious and wants to be on top and because of self preservation. But I feel that as an educated and empathetic person in modern society that I KNOW BETTER than Cersei and should not be rooting for the High Septon during the Walk os Shame.

I feel the same exact way about Theon and his abuse. Come to think of it..the only time I that I felt a sense of justice for a character's comeuppance was when Tywin and Robert died since they were killed by the people they abused.

Thoughts???

What do you guys think??

Anyone else agree with me??

As far as I'm concerned the Walk of Shame comes nowhere near many of the things that happen in the books. What happened to Falyse Stokeworth is at least a thousand times worse, and killing Melara at least a hundred times worse. I'd also be very disturbed if the various burnings at the stake by Stannis were real, not fictional; that's one of the worst ways to die. Ramsay's little game of hunting down "escaped" women with his dogs and gruesomely killing them is horrendous.

Cersei suffered acute embarrassment, nothing you die from.