Suzanna Stormborn Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 TEXAS - Still big 12 country here despite what A&M believes!! A&M did well last year...just sayin, and the SEC is a tough conference. UGA girl here :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaAIP Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Aegon has always been the #1 plan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 If the planned worked out and Viserys hadn't of been a total idiot and gotten himself killed, would (f)Aegon still try to claim the throne? What I am trying to say is: after the death of Viserys did Illyrio and Varys go with the next best plan which is (f)Aegon? Would there even be a (f)Aegon if Viserys lived? Would the golden company AND the dothraki fight for Viserys or would they war against each other? Was it the plan all along for Viserys to die? Varys tells Kevan that they had been training (f)Aegon since he was a little boy to be the best king there ever was. Why would they train him to rule with Viserys and Dany still alive?No, I just posted this in another thread addressing Illyrio's apparent Targaryen sympathies...Illyrio wanted Viserys and Daenerys to vouch for Aegon when the time was right. While Daenerys was off showing Drogo a good time and giving him an heir with the blood of the dragon Viserys was supposed to be in Pentos banging Lyseni bed slaves. When the time was right Viserys would have been introduced to his "nephew" and been offered nominal command of 10k Dothraki and probably Dragonstone and Arianne or vouching for Aegon who of course was to lead the Golden Company. If he had refused he would have been swimming with the fishes in the Bay of Pentos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 No, I just posted this in another thread addressing Illyrio's apparent Targaryen sympathies...Illyrio wanted Viserys and Daenerys to vouch for Aegon when the time was right. While Daenerys was off showing Drogo a good time and giving him an heir with the blood of the dragon Viserys was supposed to be in Pentos banging Lyseni bed slaves. When the time was right Viserys would have been introduced to his "nephew" and been offered nominal command of 10k Dothraki and probably Dragonstone and Arianne or vouching for Aegon who of course was to lead the Golden Company. If he had refused he would have been swimming with the fishes in the Bay of Pentos.In the end Viserys had no real power. He could have bitched and threw a tantrum, but no one would back him, and he wouldnt have accepted Aegon no way. Death was the only path for Viserys really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 In the end Viserys had no real power. He could have bitched and threw a tantrum, but no one would back him, and he wouldnt have accepted Aegon no way. Death was the only path for Viserys really.Not many would refuse an offer you can't refuse. But you could be right. He was a twit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draco_Dracul Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 (f)Aegon was always the end game, the plan was to get the Tyrells and Lannisters at each other's throats, hit the seven kingdoms with the Dothraki then bring in Aegon to clean up the mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 (f)Aegon was always the end game, the plan was to get the Tyrells and Lannisters at each other's throats, hit the seven kingdoms with the Dothraki then bring in Aegon to clean up the mess.I understand the bait and switch theory solidly derives from the schemes Illyrio and Varys used to get rich but it would have been foolish of them to put a potential rival (Illyrio wed Daenerys to Drogo to give the Khal a Targaryen son) in front of your own claimant rather than use that ally. Having learned of the Blackfyres' earlier defeats, Illyrio knew he needed a bigger army: Drogo's Khalasar and Dorne plus the Golden Company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I understand the bait and switch theory solidly derives from the schemes Illyrio and Varys used to get rich but it would have been foolish of them to put a potential rival (Illyrio wed Daenerys to Drogo to give the Khal a Targaryen son) in front of your own claimant rather than use that ally. Having learned of the Blackfyres' earlier defeats, Illyrio knew he needed a bigger army: Drogo's Khalasar and Dorne plus the Golden Company. I want to know where Aegon was while Dany was at Illyrio's manse, how long ago did he leave? And did he come back after Dany left with Drogo? I think he must've come back to model for the statue in Illyrio's yard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'll pay the iron price Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Viserys was his fathers son alright! (crazy man) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I want to know where Aegon was while Dany was at Illyrio's manse, how long ago did he leave? And did he come back after Dany left with Drogo? I think he must've come back to model for the statue in Illyrio's yard.He was a little boy when he was sent to live with Jon Connington. For all we know he's never been back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlady B Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 I want to know where Aegon was while Dany was at Illyrio's manse, how long ago did he leave? And did he come back after Dany left with Drogo? I think he must've come back to model for the statue in Illyrio's yard. I think that statue is indeed Illyrio's. He says that he worked as a braavo when he met Varys. It's not impossible for him to have been a good looking lad, and it also reinforces the theory of him being (f)Aegon's father/relative. As for the OP, I think all the plot is very twisted, in the JonCon chapter with the GC one of the captains says something like Illyrio's plans are constantly changing due to circumstances. IMHO, Varys and Illyrio are playing with the available cards in hand, despite of their efforts to mantein the situation the most favorable possible for them. If it turns out that (f)Aegon makes a political marriage with a westerosi, they'll do all they can to keep Dany out of the way, six feet under if possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaeronDrumm Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 If I am Viserys and Dany I am not supporting (f)Aegon because ever since the sack of King's Landing I have been told he's dead. Now all of a sudden he's alive again? I think that would be a tough sell If they didn't have an army and Fake Aegon did? Why not? They could probably get Dragonstone out of the deal and get the whole being on the run mess over with for good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlady B Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 (@DaeronDrumm, I'm taking your answer as a lead, so forgive me if I missunderstand what you're saying there)If they didn't have an army and Fake Aegon did? Why not? They could probably get Dragonstone out of the deal and get the whole being on the run mess over with for good. But they did have an army: Drogo's Khalassar. Even if it was not a sure thing Drogo would agree to cross the narrow sea at all (i think in part they counted on it), it would have been a reckless thing to arrange an allegiance between one of the mightiest khals and the targ kids if there was no other assurence of them availing (f)aegon. Even the golden company expected a khalassar to join them. So, Illyrio had to have some certainty to believe that Viserys and Drogo weren't turning against the new heir.Something like "If you want to go home and stay in one piece, you'd better accept that (f)aegon is your new king". Viserys wouldn't be able to gain back westeros by his own, no matter how many khalassar he had, that we know.I can't remember if Illyrio was aware of the secret pact between Dorne and the Targs, but if he were, we could presume that he would offer Viserys Dorne (and a succesful come back home) if he availed (f)aegon.Only the risk is the same: Viserys may refuse it. But if all the time the plan was keep every eye fixed on the targ kids, hoping dany to preffer being a khaleesi and Viserys growing old or killed while waiting to get his end of the bargain paid back, it doesn;t matter at all what happens to them, (f)aegon still has an army, and JonCon is all the legitimation he needs. The targ kids can rot in Essos all they want. The problem is that all the circumstances changed, and as I said in a comment above, they are playing with the cards at hand. Edit: spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeddinGuest Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 If the planned worked out and Viserys hadn't of been a total idiot and gotten himself killed, would (f)Aegon still try to claim the throne? What I am trying to say is: after the death of Viserys did Illyrio and Varys go with the next best plan which is (f)Aegon? Would there even be a (f)Aegon if Viserys lived? Would the golden company AND the dothraki fight for Viserys or would they war against each other? Was it the plan all along for Viserys to die? Varys tells Kevan that they had been training (f)Aegon since he was a little boy to be the best king there ever was. Why would they train him to rule with Viserys and Dany still alive? I am wondering if you might be assuming that Viserys would take precedence over the actual Aegon VI for the IT? He wouldn't, if we use the inheritance rules that seem to apply in Westeros; once Rhaegar had a son, that son was automatically next in line after Rhaegar, regardless of whether Rhaegar himself ever sat the IT. The reason why Viserys was considered the Targaryen King in Exile after RR, is because Aerys II, Rhaegar, and Aegon VI were all officially dead. This is why many believe that not only is R+L=J, that R+L were wed in a polygamous marriage, making Jon is actually the rightful Targ king. However, if Aegon is real, then he would be the true Targ King, and Viserys merely a red herring. I think that whether Aegon is the real deal, a Blackfyre, Serra and Illyrio's son, or just a random kid with Valyrian features, Varys and Illyrio always meant for Viserys to die. Even if Varys supports a Targ restoration, I don't think he cares much about whether the new Targ king actually is a legitimate Targ. (I think Varys hating magic is meant to be the truth and one reason he doesn't find Targ blood is that important. Varys is great at the Game of Thrones but he seems just as blind as the other players when it comes to the Others and the significance of magic becoming more powerful -- or at least, I hope he is, because the whole "Varys is ominescent and controls EVERYTHING" just seems to require too much suspension of disbelief.) Anyway, I think they likely saw what an idiot Viserys was and predicted he'd get himself killed in some way; Illyrio does advise him NOT to tag along with Drogo's Khalasar but I think it's certainly possible he was using reverse psychology and knew that if he joined the khalasar he'd eventually piss them off enough to get killed, which is exactly what happened. Or he wanted to keep Viserys in Pentos so he himself could assassinate him when the time came. I also think both Varys and Illyrio never dreamed Dany would dare to make a claim of her own, and assumed that she'd just bend the knee to (f)Aegon once Viserys was dead and (f)Aegon was revealed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 (@DaeronDrumm, I'm taking your answer as a lead, so forgive me if I missunderstand what you're saying there) But they did have an army: Drogo's Khalassar. Even if it was not a sure thing Drogo would agree to cross the narrow sea at all (i think in part they counted on it), it would have been a reckless thing to arrange an allegiance between one of the mightiest khals and the targ kids if there was no other assurence of them availing (f)aegon. Even the golden company expected a khalassar to join them. So, Illyrio had to have some certainty to believe that Viserys and Drogo weren't turning against the new heir.Something like "If you want to go home and stay in one piece, you'd better accept that (f)aegon is your new king". Viserys wouldn't be able to gain back westeros by his own, no matter how many khalassar he had, that we know.I can't remember if Illyrio was aware of the secret pact between Dorne and the Targs, but if he were, we could presume that he would offer Viserys Dorne (and a succesful come back home) if he availed (f)aegon.Only the risk is the same: Viserys may refuse it. But if all the time the plan was keep every eye fixed on the targ kids, hoping dany to preffer being a khaleesi and Viserys growing old or killed while waiting to get his end of the bargain paid back, it doesn;t matter at all what happens to them, (f)aegon still has an army, and JonCon is all the legitimation he needs. The targ kids can rot in Essos all they want. The problem is that all the circumstances changed, and as I said in a comment above, they are playing with the cards at hand. Edit: spelling The George saud Illyrio and Varys were not aware of the Viserys-Arianne betrothal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joluoto2 Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Yes, fAegon is at least Illyrio's endgame, and probably among Varys' final and most decisive moves in the game. fAegon was always suppose to claim the throne. If it's Varys last move remains to be seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waylin Stark Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Aegon was always the plan. They wanted Viserys and Dany to secure allies (the Martells and the Dothraki), to assist Aegon and his mercenaries.Of course, all that went to shit when Viserys got himself killed and Dany left the Dothraki, hatched dragons and went East to free slaves and all. I think Dany is not part of the plan anymore. They don't seem to be in any position to be controlling her moves. Unless Varys and Illyrio are working with the Harpy in order to make Dany leave Merreen and go to Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlady B Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Making a re watch of the HBO series before the new season, I realized that Varys was plotting all the time to kill Dany and Viserys. The excuse of the threat her marriage posed to the Baratheon claim was what he needed to make Robert go in a enraged killing mode. If Dany hadn't married a khal with a large army, maybe Robert wouldn't have bothered with her.Viserys just happened to die before the killers sent by Robert arrived where Dany was. Ser Jorah and Ser Barristan turning to her, and the dragons where all items that Varys was not able to foresee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GallowsKnight Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 No, I just posted this in another thread addressing Illyrio's apparent Targaryen sympathies...Illyrio wanted Viserys and Daenerys to vouch for Aegon when the time was right. While Daenerys was off showing Drogo a good time and giving him an heir with the blood of the dragon Viserys was supposed to be in Pentos banging Lyseni bed slaves. When the time was right Viserys would have been introduced to his "nephew" and been offered nominal command of 10k Dothraki and probably Dragonstone and Arianne or vouching for Aegon who of course was to lead the Golden Company. If he had refused he would have been swimming with the fishes in the Bay of Pentos.I agree with this. I think Varys and Ilyrio were flexible. Viserys was a useful tool but expendable if he couldn't be controlled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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