Imry Florent did nothing wrong on the Blackwater.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Scenario 1: The fleet takes part of the army, and while still in view of the south bank, see the Tyrells smashing thier way through the half of the army that is still on land. Stannis cuts his losses, and flees.

Scenario 2: The fleet unloads half the army north of KL. Returns, sees the army south of the river is destroyed, and gets back in time before Tywin arrives (Tywin arrives long after Garlan shows up, and after Lancel has time to report that the gates are still under attack) to load the northern half of the army and retreat.

Scenario 3: The fleet unloads half the army north of KL. Returns, sees the army south of the river is destroyed, loads up survivers, returns north to find that the northern half suffered the same, and loads survivers from there as well.

In all 3 scenarios the fleet is doing ok, since there is no reason for the Lannisters to risk thier fleet for a poitless sea battle. In all 3 scenarios the army cannot survive 100%, and the city is untaken.

These three scenarios aren't related to scouting (with the ships) though. It's just waiting for something to happen they have no way of knowing.

[Lykos]

Spot on.

The only mistake Ser Imry made was not taking the winch tower on the southern side. And that's on Stannis' head, since he was the guy with the army on this side.

And pray tell, how would you do that with the Lannister fleet waiting for them in the Blackwater itself? No space to avoid them, not enough ships to fight through, that's throwing away lifes for nothing.

Agreed. (More specific.)

[illrede]

Well, he did a number of things wrong, but they weren't decisive. He did two decisive things-

1. He delivered a fleet to the Blackwater.

2. He showed up late.

He only needed to do the first one to do his job, and if for not the second it would have been enough. The second one he couldn't affect.

[Fire Eater]

Strike 2.

Davos' wish to see the pirates at the front is simply flat out void of logic. The pirate ships are not all galleys, and the galleys are smaller than the Westerosi war galleys. The galleys would be smaller than the enemy's, and would likely lose in a fight that is focused around ramming the other ship. Not only that, but even the ships that survive first contact would be facing more enemies, since the Westerosi war galleys are larger and can hold more soldiers. As good at fighting as the pirates may be, attacking a larger gro

No, it isn't the pirates are the most skilled at naval combat. They are used to taking on larger ships.

Much of this is hindsight, no one knew the Tyrells and Tywin were coming. Otherwise, Davos's plan would have made sense at the time given the info they had.

They might have suspected something from the scout's reports. If Florent had been more cautious, and sent a few ships then much of Stannis's fleet wouldn't have been destroyed by the conflagration.

[Nyrhex]

No, it isn't the pirates are the most skilled at naval combat. They are used to taking on larger ships.

Much of this is hindsight, no one knew the Tyrells and Tywin were coming. Otherwise, Davos's plan would have made sense at the time given the info they had.

They might have suspected something from the scout's reports. If Florent had been more cautious, and sent a few ships then much of Stannis's fleet wouldn't have been destroyed by the conflagration.

Pirates are used to taking on civilian ships, not war galleys that are larger, can take damage better, and have more armed soldiers and archers than the pirates have fighting men on thier ships. Pirates are good at fighting sailors with little weaponry or armor, not trained soldiers. The ships are of the royal navy, the soldiers are trained for naval combat. Pirates having more experiance with fighting sailors on merchant ships with makeshift weapons, is hardly the same as the soldiers of the royal navy.

This is not hindsight. Blaming Imry for getting the fleet into a wildfire trap when the wildfire is only enough due to events that no one was aware of at the time, is hindsight. Imry warned his men that some wildfire is to be expected, even though we never hear of it used in any battle, ever. He can't know that dragons have returned half way across the world, that with them the magic to creat wildfire is more potent, and that the Pyromancers are using caches from Aerys' stock. Jaime never made it public that it existed. Davos wanting to stop and scout does'nt make sense. What on earth could the scouts report that would change anything? That the enemy fleet is there, waiting where they cannot flank it? It only makes sense.They can see the bloody chain, they know that it exists from the fishermen that they took captive. Tyrion sacrefices the Lannister fleet for it to look good, even sending men on civian ships to join the battle. All of them burn alongside Imry's ships.

And even if Davos had stayed put, sent scouts to tell him what he can see from miles away, in ~3 hours time Garlan shows up with 50,000 Tyrells at his back, and we get the same result, Stannis retreating to Dragonstone. With hindsight, stopping the battle from happening, and waisting time for no reason could get Stannis some more men (no way even half the army fits on the fleet, not to mention the deserters once they see that the two largest factions in Westeros have joined forces against them), and all of his fleet. But that is hindsight, and has little to do with the battle. But there is no good reason to do so. They can see the enemy fleet. They know about the chain. They know that both fighing on the river, and cutting the fleet in half, won't help the Lannisters much, since they still have over twice the fighting ships, way more men, and the chain can't lift in time before most of the fighting ships are on the other side. Since the whole defense of KL depends on Tywin hearing of it being at risk, and returning from the west, any more time lost, after the fleet is already days late due to a storm, is added risk. There is no realistic risk for attacking with no scouting, since there are no more fleets nearby, they can see the Lannister fleet, and they think that wildfire is too scarce to make an impact. Scouts can't see through the hulls. They would see exactly what Imry can see from miles away, ships in formation, 3 ships missing (on thier way to Dorne, but even if they return Saan has 30 pirate ships, more than enough to take care of them), and whatever else can float and carry armed men.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

No, it isn't the pirates are the most skilled at naval combat. They are used to taking on larger ships.

Much of this is hindsight, no one knew the Tyrells and Tywin were coming. Otherwise, Davos's plan would have made sense at the time given the info they had.

They might have suspected something from the scout's reports. If Florent had been more cautious, and sent a few ships then much of Stannis's fleet wouldn't have been destroyed by the conflagration.

And to you the same question nobody has seen fit to answer: How should these ships proceed to scout anything? Sailing up the Blackwater to take on the waiting Lannister battlefleet, now of superior strength on top of the better position, on their own?

[Fire Eater]

Pirates are used to taking on civilian ships, not war galleys that are larger, can take damage better, and have more armed soldiers and archers than the pirates have fighting men on thier ships. Pirates are good at fighting sailors with little weaponry or armor, not trained soldiers. The ships are of the royal navy, the soldiers are trained for naval combat. Pirates having more experiance with fighting sailors on merchant ships with makeshift weapons, is hardly the same as the soldiers of the royal navy.

That is still more experience than most of Stannis's men in naval combat. Also, the ships aren't described as all small as Saan's Valyrian had 300 oars, the same as Stannis's Fury. The ships Jiffrey had were few, and made up of plenty of merchant ships seized by Tyrion. The men Tyrion has on the ships are mostly new, raw recruits.

This is not hindsight. Blaming Imry for getting the fleet into a wildfire trap when the wildfire is only enough due to events that no one was aware of at the time, is hindsight. Imry warned his men that some wildfire is to be expected, even though we never hear of it used in any battle, ever. He can't know that dragons have returned half way across the world, that with them the magic to creat wildfire is more potent, and that the Pyromancers are using caches from Aerys' stock. Jaime never made it public that it existed. Davos wanting to stop and scout does'nt make sense. What on earth could the scouts report that would change anything? That the enemy fleet is there, waiting where they cannot flank it? It only makes sense.They can see the bloody chain, they know that it exists from the fishermen that they took captive. Tyrion sacrefices the Lannister fleet for it to look good, even sending men on civian ships to join the battle. All of them burn alongside Imry's ships.

Except dragons having nothing to do with the BoBW, and were not headed towards KL. It does make sense to send scouts, that is what plenty of military commanders do to get a good gauge of their enemy so as not to go into battle blind. The scouts could have reported some additional info, which Davos knew likely had a boom chain, and they could have sent ships in smaller numbers.

And even if Davos had stayed put, sent scouts to tell him what he can see from miles away, in ~3 hours time Garlan shows up with 50,000 Tyrells at his back, and we get the same result, Stannis retreating to Dragonstone. With hindsight, stopping the battle from happening, and waisting time for no reason could get Stannis some more men (no way even half the army fits on the fleet, not to mention the deserters once they see that the two largest factions in Westeros have joined forces against them), and all of his fleet. But that is hindsight, and has little to do with the battle. But there is no good reason to do so. They can see the enemy fleet. They know about the chain. They know that both fighing on the river, and cutting the fleet in half, won't help the Lannisters much, since they still have over twice the fighting ships, way more men, and the chain can't lift in time before most of the fighting ships are on the other side. Since the whole defense of KL depends on Tywin hearing of it being at risk, and returning from the west, any more time lost, after the fleet is already days late due to a storm, is added risk. There is no realistic risk for attacking with no scouting, since there are no more fleets nearby, they can see the Lannister fleet, and they think that wildfire is too scarce to make an impact. Scouts can't see through the hulls. They would see exactly what Imry can see from miles away, ships in formation, 3 ships missing (on thier way to Dorne, but even if they return Saan has 30 pirate ships, more than enough to take care of them), and whatever else can float and carry armed men.

I stated my reasons for scouting above.

Davos learned that the two towers were too small to hold a large garrison, and they had a boom chain, yet he found it strange that they had not raised it when Imry's ships came down to prevent them from entering the Blackwater Rush. They wanted Stannis's fleet to come down the Blackwater Rush, Davos knew, and the BF said is never give the enemy what he wants.

And to you the same question nobody has seen fit to answer: How should these ships proceed to scout anything? Sailing up the Blackwater to take on the waiting Lannister battlefleet, now of superior strength on top of the better position, on their own?

That is not the definition of scouting. The scouting ships, the swiftest, would have sailed up, and taken a quick look and sailed back.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

That is not the definition of scouting. The scouting ships, the swiftest, would have sailed up, and taken a quick look and sailed back.

True, it isn't the definition of scouting: Because scouting in that situation is not possible. The first Lannister battleline was pretty much at the mouth of the river, visible from out the bay. Nothing to be gained there and they kept any ship from entering the Blackwater itself.

The only way to maybe gain any information was to smash them and sail into the Blackwater. In the river, sailing around isn't possible. Only with a strong punch could they be dislodged. A strong punch is exactly what Ser Imry commanded.

[Fire Eater]

True, it isn't the definition of scouting: Because scouting in that situation is not possible. The first Lannister battleline was pretty much at the mouth of the river, visible from out the bay. Nothing to be gained there and they kept any ship from entering the Blackwater itself.

The only way to maybe gain any information was to smash them and sail into the Blackwater. In the river, sailing around isn't possible. Only with a strong punch could they be dislodged. A strong punch is exactly what Ser Imry commanded.

That is why they would send their swiftest ships, and the Lannisters would want to keep their ships in the Blackwater Rush to prevent Stannis's army from crossing. The could see without entering the mouth of the Blackwater Rush. Sailing into the Blackwater Rush was what they wanted as shown by staying in the river.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

That is why they would send their swiftest ships, and the Lannisters would want to keep their ships in the Blackwater Rush to prevent Stannis's army from crossing. The could see without entering the mouth of the Blackwater Rush. Sailing into the Blackwater Rush was what they wanted as shown by staying in the river.

The Blackwater allows only twenty ships to align without crashing into each other even without malicious intent. The Lannisters had more than that. The scout ships simply can't bypass that line, no matter how fast they are.

Furthermore, they'd be sailing up the currents, limiting their speed somewhat.

[Fire Eater]

The Blackwater allows only twenty ships to align without crashing into each other even without malicious intent. The Lannisters had more than that. The scout ships simply can't bypass that line, no matter how fast they are.

Furthermore, they'd be sailing up the currents, limiting their speed somewhat.

I clearly said they wouldn't sail into the Blackwater Rush.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I clearly said they wouldn't sail into the Blackwater Rush.

And what should they do otherwise? Stay out in the bay with the rest of the fleet?

[Fire Eater]

And what should they do otherwise? Stay out in the bay with the rest of the fleet?

Get close enough to get a look from a safe distance, and then sail back to the rest of the fleet coming.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Get close enough to get a look from a safe distance, and then sail back to the rest of the fleet coming.

They had that. With the entire fleet no less. Didn't get any information. The important information was hidden in the bellies of the ships way, way further up the river.

[Fire Eater]

They had that. With the entire fleet no less. Didn't get any information. The important information was hidden in the bellies of the ships way, way further up the river.

They could have learned that the towers were winch towers with a boom chain, that would have helped.

[Lykos]

... he peered at those towers more closely. They were too small to hold much of a garrison. The one on the north bank was built against the bluff with the Red Keep frowning above; its counterpart on the south shore had its footing in the water.

They dug a cut through the bank, he knew at once. That would make the tower very difficult to assault; attackers would need to wade through the water or bridge the little channel. Stannis had posted bowmen below, to fire up at the defenders whenever one was rash enough to lift his head above the ramparts, but otherwise had not troubled.

Something flashed down low where the dark water swirled around the base of the tower. It was sunlight on steel, and it told Davos Seaworth all he needed to know. A chain boom . . . and yet they have not closed the river against us. Why?

Davos in Clash.

So the "scouts" would have returned to the waiting fleet and reported of the chain boom to a council that had to make a decission that at best would have send a message to Stannis to take down the winchtower, but all that would cost time.

They couldn´t have known that Tyrion had that much wildfire at his disposal and no scrupels to use it, nor that he found a way to deal the blow using the Blackwater current as hammer and the chain as anvil to smash the fleet.

So the scenario is as follows.

The chain isn´t raised. - Joff´s fleet is destroyed at still considerable cost, but maybe half of Stannis´ fleet survives. - Just before they start ferrying Stannis´army across the Blackwater, since there is no burnig bridge of ships, Garlan attacks the rear. - Result. - Stannis hasn´t even come close to taking King´s Landing, but would have saved half his fleet.

So the best course would have been to not even try to take King´s Landing and keep all of his army? How many of the men he gained at Storm´s End would have remained loyal then?

[Stormland's Fury]

And to you the same question nobody has seen fit to answer: How should these ships proceed to scout anything? Sailing up the Blackwater to take on the waiting Lannister battlefleet, now of superior strength on top of the better position, on their own?

This.

And if they had sent scouts, the chain would have never been raised as well. There are two possibilities in that scenario:

1) The scouts get attacked. They know that there are enemy ships and they attack because they have superior numbers, enter the fleet and the chain gets raised.

2) The scouts come back. They know that there are enemy ships and they attack because they have superior numbers, enter the fleet and the chain gets raised.

Tyrion's plan would have worked either way because they didn't know about the chain (or what it's for) nor the wildfire. It's not like they would or could have waited in the bay.

[Mithras]

“Harrenhal is strong and well situated.”

“And King’s Landing is not, as we both know perfectly well. While Father plays lion and fawn with the Stark boy, Renly marches up the roseroad. He could be at our gates any day now!”

“The city will not fall in a day. From Harrenhal it is a straight, swift march down the kingsroad. Renly will scarce have unlimbered his siege engines before Father takes him in the rear. His host will be the hammer, the city walls the anvil. It makes a lovely picture.”

Cersei’s green eyes bored into him, wary, yet hungry for the reassurance he was feeding her. “And if Robb Stark marches?”

“Harrenhal is close enough to the fords of the Trident so that Roose Bolton cannot bring the northern foot across to join with the Young Wolf’s horse. Stark cannot march on King’s Landing without taking Harrenhal first, and even with Bolton he is not strong enough to do that.” Tyrion tried his most winning smile. “Meanwhile Father lives off the fat of the riverlands, while our uncle Stafford gathers fresh levies at the Rock.”

Cersei regarded him suspiciously. “How could you know all this? Did Father tell you his intentions when he sent you here?”

“No. I glanced at a map.”

“If you die stupidly, I’m going to feed your body to the goats,” Tyrion threatened as the first load of Stone Crows pushed off from the quay.

Shagga laughed. “The Halfman has no goats.”

“I’ll get some just for you.”

Dawn was breaking, and pale ripples of light shimmered on the surface of the river, shattering under the poles and reforming when the ferry had passed. Timett had taken his Burned Men into the kingswood two days before. Yesterday the Black Ears and Moon Brothers followed, today the Stone Crows.

“Whatever you do, don’t try and fight a battle,” Tyrion said. “Strike at their camps and baggage train. Ambush their scouts and hang the bodies from trees ahead of their line of march, loop around and cut down stragglers. I want night attacks, so many and so sudden that they’ll be afraid to sleep—”

Shagga laid a hand atop Tyrion’s head. “All this I learned from Dolf son of Holger before my beard had grown. This is the way of war in the Mountains of the Moon.”

“The kingswood is not the Mountains of the Moon, and you won’t be fighting Milk Snakes and Painted Dogs. And listen to the guides I’m sending, they know this wood as well as you know your mountains. Heed their counsel and they’ll serve you well.”

“Shagga will listen to the Halfman’s pets,” the clansman promised solemnly.

“No, my lady,” Ser Garlan said. “My lord of Lannister was made to do great deeds, not to sing of them. But for his chain and his wildfire, the foe would have been across the river. And if Tyrion’s wildlings had not slain most of Lord Stannis’s scouts, we would never have been able to take him unawares.”

Both Stannis and Imry fell into the trap set by Tyrion. I think they did plenty of wrongs. If you do not send scouts to check for traps and/or if your scouts are not functioning, it is entirely your fault falling into a trap.

[Lykos]

The alternative would have been giving up the plan to take King´s Landing and Stannis felt, with good reason, that people wouldn´t follow him unless he did. He knew about Tywin and the Tyrells, only not how quickly they´d move after they come to an agreement. He most likely guessed what the not returning scouts meant, but his best hope was to take the city at this point and that was close.

Tyrion in Clash

"They've landed men on the tourney grounds, hundreds! They're bringing a ram up to the King's Gate."

<snip>

Steel-clad men-at-arms were clambering off a broken galley that had smashed into a pier. So many, where are they coming from? Squinting into the smoke and glare, Tyrion followed them back out into the river. Twenty galleys were jammed together out there, maybe more, it was hard to count. Their oars were crossed, their hulls locked together with grappling lines, they were impaled on each other's rams, tangled in webs of fallen rigging. One great hulk floated hull up between two smaller ships. Wrecks, but packed so closely that it was possible to leap from one deck to the other and so cross the Blackwater.
Hundreds of Stannis Baratheon's boldest were doing just that. Tyrion saw one great fool of a knight trying to ride across, urging a terrified horse over gunwales and oars, across tilting decks slick with blood and crackling with green fire. We made them a bloody bridge, he thought in dismay.

Of course Tyrion´s plan was brilliant because without the fleet Stannis would have trouble holding the city. But Ser Imry did not so much wrong. The only thing that would have helped was to keep the chain from being raised and that should have been done by Stannis, who had only pinned Bronn´s garrison inside the winch tower with some archers.

[Frey Pie]

Tbh I'm always fairly confused by how the Blackwater went down. All in all though imry always came off as a bit of a fool. If I were stannis I would prefer Davos in command even if his methods are slower and less likely to give a quick win. Ignoring the chain was a mistake no matter if the remaining fleet was still strong enough to take the royalists