The Curious Case of The Dragon Prince and The Winter Rose 3

[King Benjen II]

Rhaegar was not a rapist

Probably not. I think in the end we will find out Lyanna was completely willing or the mastermind.

[King Benjen II]

Agreed!

What did Syrio teach - look with your eyes? You're looking but you're not seeing....

Not to mention - the north is remote, how many people from the south have ever really seen Lyanna, let alone know her well enough to match her face with a name...

Can someone address the bolded part?

I am interested and don't remember seeing it addressed before.

[horizon]

Can someone adress the point Bran I just made. :dunno:

[alienarea]

I have a feeling we need to look at Lyanna and Ashara (but we aren't told). Ashara was not nailed to one place as GRRM said somewhere.

Ashara gets pregnant at Harrenhal by a Stark. When she finds out and contacts Winterfell, she is where? KL I assume helping Elia. Lyanna goes there, maybe with Brandon, because he needs to go to Riverrun. Ashara and Lyanna leave for Starfall, Brandon gets tipped ny Littlefinger that Rhaegar is to blame ...

If Ashara returns from KL to Starfall with Lyanna and Rhaegar shows up later most people in Dorne won't suspect foul play.

[King Benjen II]

Can someone adress the point Bran I just made. :dunno:

On what page?

[King Benjen II]

I have a feeling we need to look at Lyanna and Ashara (but we aren't told). Ashara was not nailed to one place as GRRM said somewhere.

Ashara gets pregnant at Harrenhal by a Stark. When she finds out and contacts Winterfell, she is where? KL I assume helping Elia. Lyanna goes there, maybe with Brandon, because he needs to go to Riverrun. Ashara and Lyanna leave for Starfall, Brandon gets tipped ny Littlefinger that Rhaegar is to blame ...

If Ashara returns from KL to Starfall with Lyanna and Rhaegar shows up later most people in Dorne won't suspect foul play.

I have a feeling Ned's bastard is with Ashara and is named Gerold Dayne aka Darkstar who is oddly nicknamed Ned.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I have a feeling Ned's bastard is with Ashara and is named Gerold Dayne aka Darkstar who is oddly nicknamed Ned.

Darkstar is in his late twenties, I think. I mean, he could be Ned's son, but he should have had him much earlier than the RR, and people would have known.

[horizon]

On what page?

Last comment page 19.

[King Benjen II]

Darkstar is in his late twenties, I think. I mean, he could be Ned's son, but he should have had him much earlier than the RR, and people would have known.

Do we actually know his age for sure? I was thinking I had him to young with this idea and then someone told me we don't know his age.

[wolfmaid7]

Nope. I imagine Bran hates Rhaeger as well. In aGoT when he goes into the crypts with Osha he tells the story of Lyanna being raped and abducted by Rhaegar. I can imagine you hate the man who did that your aunt. But then, who,told Bran that story. Eddard did. Which sounds odd.

Hmm, with that I imagine Robb, Sansa, Arya & Jon have grown up with the same story: Rhaegar raped your aunt.

And Imagine the effect if Jon hears that he is the child of rape.

I wonder if Bran even knew what rape was, he didn't even know Cersci and Jaime were having sex.It may have been something he heard around the castle I can't imagine Ned having this discussion with Bran.Castle gossip.

[King Benjen II]

Nope. I imagine Bran hates Rhaeger as well. In aGoT when he goes into the crypts with Osha he tells the story of Lyanna being raped and abducted by Rhaegar. I can imagine you hate the man who did that your aunt. But then, who,told Bran that story. Eddard did. Which sounds odd.

Hmm, with that I imagine Robb, Sansa, Arya & Jon have grown up with the same story: Rhaegar raped your aunt.

And Imagine the effect if Jon hears that he is the child of rape.

Would Eddard tell the rape tale if he didn't believe it? Not to say his belief makes it true. Would you interrogate your dying sister on whether she was raped or not?

It's interesting only Bran ever mentions it out of the kids (assuming you're correct).

Jon...may then end up killing Dany in a wild rage just because she's a Targ.

[wolfmaid7]

Sounds awful speculative

No more speculative than assuming that prior to the Tourney R and a 14 girl had a secretive relationship and he professed said love to her even though we have no evidence prior to that.Hey but people routinely declare love for individuals they don't know.

[Black Crow]

Nope. I imagine Bran hates Rhaeger as well. In aGoT when he goes into the crypts with Osha he tells the story of Lyanna being raped and abducted by Rhaegar. I can imagine you hate the man who did that your aunt. But then, who,told Bran that story. Eddard did. Which sounds odd.

Hmm, with that I imagine Robb, Sansa, Arya & Jon have grown up with the same story: Rhaegar raped your aunt.

And Imagine the effect if Jon hears that he is the child of rape.

Very nice catch:

"The maid's a fair one," Osha said.

"Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and raped her," Bran explained. "Robert fought a war to win her back. He killed Rhaegar on the Trident with his hammer, but Lyanna died and he never got her back at all."

I agree that Bran got that story in family and that if it didn't come straight from Ned he'd never attempted to soften it. I'm not sure about Jon getting upset over being a "child of rape", he's already borne his bastardy all his life. Learning this will tell him first that he is a Stark and second that it wasn't her fault. Certainly won't encourage any ideas of going for the Iron Throne.

There is another thought though, bearing in mind this "out of the mouths of babes" business to quote GRRM. We've all been assuming that Rhaegar wanted her to fulfill the prophecy. Bran obviously knows nothing of the prophecy but the way be tells it is that Rhaegar abducted her to frustrate the union with Robert

[Starks Among Us]

Why would Ned tell Bran about the rape and not about KotLT? That makes no sense.

I am under the impression that Darkstar's age is not made clear, only that Arianna thinks he's hot and looks at him as her peer.

ETA: then again, I guess it would make sense. Ned would rather have the story that Rhaegar raped her touted about then the truth....so I guess in that aspect it would be a reason whyl

[horizon]

Why would Ned tell Bran about the rape and not about KotLT? That makes no sense.

I am under the impression that Darkstar's age is not made clear, only that Arianna thinks he's hot and looks at him as her peer.

ETA: then again, I guess it would make sense. Ned would rather have the story that Rhaegar raped her touted about then the truth....so I guess in that aspect it would be a reason whyl

Yeah, Darkstar's age is unknown.

So if Bran is told that story the other Stark-kids will have heard it as well. And then one might imagine how wide-spread the story may have been now and at the time it happened.

The Bran remarkt at Osha once again does ring: why did Robert not go with Eddard to find Lyanna? If it was all that important.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Do we actually know his age for sure? I was thinking I had him to young with this idea and then someone told me we don't know his age.

We don't know his exact age, but we know it's "middle twenties" according to GRRM telling Linda and Elio for the ASOIAF app. Middle twenties means around 25 to 29. Let's say he's 25. Ned was 36. I doubt he fathered him at 11.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The Bran remarkt at Osha once again does ring: why did Robert not go with Eddard to find Lyanna? If it was all that important.

Robert was hurt.

Also, Ned and Robert had a fight previous to Ned leaving KL. They reconciled after Lyanna's dead, meaning that Robert rather left him go. So much for a woman he still keeps dreaming about.

ETA: Also, it kinda makes sense that in Winterfell and the North, the story is that Lyanna was kidnapped. Saying she run away with him would make people think Lyanna caused indirectly his father's and brother's deaths and caused a war in which many Northern houses lost members.

[King Benjen II]

We don't know his exact age, but we know it's "middle twenties" according to GRRM telling Linda and Elio for the ASOIAF app. Middle twenties means around 25 to 29. Let's say he's 25. Ned was 36. I doubt he fathered him at 11.

Thanks bro.

[setmyheartafire]

Bran does not indicate in any way how he came to learn that story, but I highly doubt it came from Ned even as a cover story. Somehow I can't see Ned sitting down with the family going...

"It was all over your aunt Lyanna. She accepted his crown of roses and that scum fool stole her away and didn't take no for an answer. And that's why you never take flowers from strangers, kids. You'll be raped and die of a rape fever. But don't tell Rickon yet. He's not old enough. Maybe when he's two."

Obviously, the official story is Lyanna was taken against her will. Do the maesters tell kids she was raped? Probably not. It's probably the whispered gossip throughout the castle, much like the Ashara Dayne rumors Cat heard, which Ned also did not partake in.

Bran and Arya are the climber and the underfoot so I'm sure they're both privy to a lot of the castle gossip.

Additionally, I thought it was Edric Dayne whose nickname is Ned. Jon's "milk brother." Darkstar's name is Gerold. Are all the Daynes nicknamed Ned?

I'm not being sarcastic I'm seriously asking. Did I miss that or am I wrong completely?

I've always wondered why people think Ashara Dayne tipped off Ned or had things to do with the Lyanna scandal or was besties with Elia and Rhaegar. Or is Lemore. Because here's what seems to me to have occurred with Ashara...

At Harrenhall: Dances with dudes including Ned. Probably sleeps with Brandon. Gets knocked up.

At KL: Brandon dies. Ashara sad. Gets dismissed because she's knocked up. Goes home.

At Starfall: Has baby. Unclear whether baby is dead or alive because stories are conflicting. Baby is probably dead.

No known movement except GRRM says she wasn't nailed down in one place. Maybe she visits High Hermitage. Maybe she goes for walks.

At Starfall: Receives Ned and Howland. Gets Dawn. Gets news Arthur is dead. Reportedly flings self off tower.

Also at Starfall: Wylla who was probably hired to feed the baby. Ends up feeding Jon Snow.

Now... even with one kid nicknamed Ned I think this could indicate that the Daynes have an affinity for Ned Stark after the events that unfold at Starfall. Why, if he was on the other "side", and killed Arthur?

Why allow him also to take Wylla to Winterfell for his sister's child?

Was this because he returned a sword? He killed their knight. Why like Ned so much? Sure it's honorable to return Dawn but this is weird.

Now, suppose Edric gets the castle gossip like Bran does. So at Starfall the story is Wylla is Jon's mother. If Wylla was AT Starfall then wouldn't the others at the castle know if she was pregnant or not? So for this to work, if Jon is Lyanna's, and that to be a rumor, Wylla would have had to not be at Starfall prior to Jon's birth. What's the theory on this? That she was at ToJ on a loaner for Rhaegar from Starfall then returned with Jon when Lyanna got sick? That's the only way for the story to go around Starfall no matter which lady, Ashara or Lyanna, birthed Jon. Because wouldn't Wylla also have a baby if she's the wet nurse? If people think Jon is hers, then where is her baby?!

There are THREE babies in this situation. Lyanna's, Ashara's, and Wylla's.

Barristan claims Ashara's girl was stillborn.

The story at Starfall seems to be that Jon is Wylla's baby.

Many of us contend that Jon is Lyanna's baby.

If we are right, where is Wylla's baby? Unless she was simply at the ToJ and traveled with Ned and Howland to Starfall, then onto Winterfell, her baby is missing too. Think about it. She returns to Starfall because she nurses Edric. Why return to Starfall if you were not from Starfall to begin with, and how does the castle believe a baby is yours if you weren't pregnant prior to its appearance?

These questions have confused me at the moment. They leave me with possibilities like

Jon is Brandon and Ashara's.

Jon really is Lyanna's.

Jon is Ashara's and Aegon is Lyanna's who Ashara spirited away.

Aegon is Ashara's and Jon is Lyanna's who Ned spirited away.

Wylla's baby is really the one that died in that situation.

Lyanna's baby died. She begs Ned to make sure Ashara and Brandon's baby, Jon, is cared for out of guilt for his death. (I find this unlikely as she had fear in her eyes until Ned "promised".)

I want the new book.

But in any case... I don't know that I believe Ashara had an affinity for Ned Stark and ravened him about Lyanna. PERHAPS since Lyanna got sick, and Starfall was stuck with her kid, they thought they'd better alert family, but even then, if the Daynes are Targaryen loyalists, friends to Rhaegar, why bring a rebel to your doorstep?

Why go to such lengths?

[King Benjen II]

Thank you! Edric! I knew it was one of the Daynes :)