Heresy 117

[redriver]

Actually I don't think there are any potatoes in Westeros but there is coffee.

[Blade of Sunlight]

I just read this, brilliant, love it. If we're looking for suspects, House Arryn fits quite nicely I think. It also explains why The Citadel & the "Andal Capital" of Oldtown are on the wrong side of Westeros, if House Arryn were among the first Andals to arrive then surely those institutions should be in The Vale? Look at a map!! They should be in The Vale. Then you've got the weirwood moondoor and the flipping weirwood throne, that be some singer ish or I'll be a monkey's uncle.

The Citadel and Oldtown predate the Andals, they apparently survived the invasion by opening their doors and welcoming them (probably an easy decision seing that the Andals conquered everything between the Vale and Oldtown, which is pretty much half of Westeros.

Well that's one of the questions which has exercised us deeply on heresy. If we accept the traditional version of events the North remained independent of the rest of Westeros by force of arms until Aegon the Conqueror tooled up. Theoretically its possible that Andal prisoners of War were despatched north to the Wall but both that and allowing "pilgrims" to pass through in any appreciable numbers seems rather unlikely.

Further complicating matters is the ruinous state of Moat Caillin. Whether or not you believe Catelyn when she notes that the wooden keep rotted away 1,000 years ago, the fact of the matter is that its condition isn't consistent with its being actively used just 300 years ago.

So both suggest that there was a lasting peace with the Andals long before Aegon imposed his Pax Targaryana

How long before is of course the crucial question, and there is a theory that the story of the Nights King is really about how the Starks of Winterfell broke the Pact by allowing the Andals to chase the Singers beyond the Wall in return for peace.

We know from Bolton not being able to cross the Neck, and by Rob's (and his council's) confidence, that Moat Cailin (even without a wooden keep) is virtually unassailable from the south.

I'm not sure about this but isn't the current belief that in addition to fighting the andals the "petty" kingdoms of the south eventually intermarried with them, and so did the North, so their peace (before the Targaryens) was made by marriage (not unlike Dorne and the 7 kingdoms, or many examples IRL).

[Black Crow]

We know from Bolton not being able to cross the Neck, and by Rob's (and his council's) confidence, that Moat Cailin (even without a wooden keep) is virtually unassailable from the south.

I'm not sure about this but isn't the current belief that in addition to fighting the andals the "petty" kingdoms of the south eventually intermarried with them, and so did the North, so their peace (before the Targaryens) was made by marriage (not unlike Dorne and the 7 kingdoms, or many examples IRL).

There's no mention in the books of a peace through marriage involving the Starks and the impression we're given is that they remained unconquered through force of arms. We may find something different in the World Book when it comes out, but the point is that whatever the reason or reasons there was indeed peace along the line and "free passage to the Wall" long before the Targaryens tooled up.

What we've also been looking at in this context is the matter of the castles on the Wall. We know that the Night Fort is older than all the others and that Castle Black at least is only half as old as the Wall; so what changed, and is the castle building connected with the Andals?

[Blade of Sunlight]

There's no mention in the books of a peace through marriage involving the Starks and the impression we're given is that they remained unconquered through force of arms. We may find something different in the World Book when it comes out, but the point is that whatever the reason or reasons there was indeed peace along the line and "free passage to the Wall" long before the Targaryens tooled up.

What we've also been looking at in this context is the matter of the castles on the Wall. We know that the Night Fort is older than all the others and that Castle Black at least is only half as old as the Wall; so what changed, and is the castle building connected with the Andals?

I didn't mean to say there was a marriage pact/peace, I meant only to say that indeed there was peace (even though Moat Cailin was still effective) and that it is possible that that peace was simply obtain by a marriage.

About the castles, if the populations increased with the arrival of the Andals (better technology), and if (at least a the start) it was an honor to serve, it would be expected for the lesser sons of lesser houses or impoverished knights to join the watch, that and the abounding smallfolk would increase the numbers.

[King Benjen II]

If there wasn't a garrison wouldn't there be free passage?

But why in the world would Moat Cailin not be garrisoned?

[Black Crow]

If there wasn't a garrison wouldn't there be free passage?

But why in the world would Moat Cailin not be garrisoned?

This is what bothers me, even if it wasn't being actively defended you would expect some kind of guardian of the gate so to speak - rather like the Bloody Gate into the Vale of Arryn, but no, its long since been abandoned.

[Blade of Sunlight]

This is what bothers me, even if it wasn't being actively defended you would expect some kind of guardian of the gate so to speak - rather like the Bloody Gate into the Vale of Arryn, but no, its long since been abandoned.

Well, there's Cranogmen all over the neck, so if needed they should be able to garrison it, while applying guerrilla tactics along the causeway.

[TheButcherCrow]

This is what bothers me, even if it wasn't being actively defended you would expect some kind of guardian of the gate so to speak - rather like the Bloody Gate into the Vale of Arryn, but no, its long since been abandoned.

maybe MC being left unmanned is part of the deal Torrhen cut with Aegon? Anyway, it's interesting to ponder whether MC existed prior to the formation of the neck or if it post-dates that event. If it pre-dates it then it's purpose is not what it appears to be and if it comes after then I think I have a plausible scenario. As the Andal's moved out of the Vale and across Westeros preaching the Faith, the singers & FM who kept the old gods would have naturally moved North. After the Neck is created, the FM whack up Moat Cailin and the Andals get no further, by force of arms anyway. Several interesting things, the creation of the Neck would seem to have created two distinct ethnic groups, the crannogmen & the ironmen, who are currently at blows with each other. Also, having just reread Sam's last chapter in Feast I really can't wait for the world book's version of what went down between Torrhen & Aegon. You can take it to the bank that any explanation it offers will b a bald faced lie. I've been thinking about the change in purpose of the NW. I wonder when they got a maester? What if the maesters made a deal with the singers? You keep the WW that side of the Wall and we will make sure that the NW starts to place greater value upon keeping "Wildlings" on that same side. A new pact? Have the children broken it? Has Jon broken it? What if the maesters "invited" Aegon I to Westeros just so they could eventually kill off the dragons?

[Black Crow]

...maybe MC being left unmanned is part of the deal Torrhen cut with Aegon?

Nah that's the point I'm making, Aegon only tooled up 300 years ago and the state of Moat Caillin indicates it was abandoned long before that.

As to the Singers again we come to the old inconsistency in the history of Westeros. We're told the Pact between Men and Singers endured until the Andals came and started burning the weirwoods and slaughtering the Singers [there doesn't incidentally seem to be any reference to the First Men and Singers fighting side by side against the Andals. I rather get the impression the First Men simply stood aside and let the Andals get on with it. Yet we're also told that only in the North etc etc... so, given that the Starks and their people keep the Old Gods the Singers should have found a refuge there, but no, not only do the Singers flee beyond the Wall but [a] the building of Castle Black is contemporary with that flight, and so presumably is the arrival of Andals on the Wall.

So what's really going on?

[Jojen]

What if the "dragon in stone" is Shireen, who is part Targ on her father's side? It's a stretch, but maybe there's a connection with Targs and greyscale.

Wouldn't the Black Gate be the guardian? While currently it only opens in response to speaking the Watch's vow, perhaps it once opened to some other command. Or perhaps the current vow is based on a much older oath that pilgrims would have used?

[Jojen]

maybe MC being left unmanned is part of the deal Torrhen cut with Aegon? Anyway, it's interesting to ponder whether MC existed prior to the formation of the neck or if it post-dates that event. If it pre-dates it then it's purpose is not what it appears to be and if it comes after then I think I have a plausible scenario. As the Andal's moved out of the Vale and across Westeros preaching the Faith, the singers & FM who kept the old gods would have naturally moved North. After the Neck is created, the FM whack up Moat Cailin and the Andals get no further, by force of arms anyway. Several interesting things, the creation of the Neck would seem to have created two distinct ethnic groups, the crannogmen & the ironmen, who are currently at blows with each other. Also, having just reread Sam's last chapter in Feast I really can't wait for the world book's version of what went down between Torrhen & Aegon. You can take it to the bank that any explanation it offers will b a bald faced lie. I've been thinking about the change in purpose of the NW. I wonder when they got a maester? What if the maesters made a deal with the singers? You keep the WW that side of the Wall and we will make sure that the NW starts to place greater value upon keeping "Wildlings" on that same side. A new pact? Have the children broken it? Has Jon broken it? What if the maesters "invited" Aegon I to Westeros just so they could eventually kill off the dragons?

Maybe the CotF taught the Crannogmen their magic before they left and so they wouldn't need to have a full-time garrison at MC, as long as they could reach the Children's Tower and do like the Children had done before them to further break the Neck in case of emergency.

[Harlan]

Ahhh i re-found the quote from so spake martin that has me puzzled..

Does anybody have any ideas as to why Hodor was afraid of the crypts at the specific time that Bran wanted to be taken down there in a Game of Thrones?

Well, here is the thing. Hodor isn't stupid, he just can't communicate. Those two abilities aren't directly related, just look at Stephen Hawking. It's possible that Hodor knew the direwolves were in the crypts, and so didn't want to go down during AGOT for that reason. It's also possible he just doesn't like the crypts but is willing to go down in ACOK because he knew his life was in danger.....

Well, there's Cranogmen all over the neck, so if needed they should be able to garrison it, while applying guerrilla tactics along the causeway.

I think this is the secret of moat Cailin. No one attacks the north because the Crannogmen can destroy any southron invading armies. Even if an army does make it into moat cailin and takes the castle, its indefensible from the north, that is to say that moat cailin is impossible to hold against an army attacking from the north. This means that, even uninhabited, the moat could do its job. Basically, the castle isn't important, the whole neck is....

As to the Singers again we come to the old inconsistency in the history of Westeros. We're told the Pact between Men and Singers endured until the Andals came and started burning the weirwoods and slaughtering the Singers [there doesn't incidentally seem to be any reference to the First Men and Singers fighting side by side against the Andals. I rather get the impression the First Men simply stood aside and let the Andals get on with it. Yet we're also told that only in the North etc etc... so, given that the Starks and their people keep the Old Gods the Singers should have found a refuge there, but no, not only do the Singers flee beyond the Wall but [a] the building of Castle Black is contemporary with that flight, and so presumably is the arrival of Andals on the Wall.

Here is the thing. While we know that singers do live north of the wall, we also know, thanks to leaf, that singers move around south of the wall as well. Which leads me to ask the obvious question, how do we know the children only live beyond the wall? Maybe they live all over westoros (or at least in the north) and are just exceptionally good at hiding.

Wouldn't the Black Gate be the guardian? While currently it only opens in response to speaking the Watch's vow, perhaps it once opened to some other command. Or perhaps the current vow is based on a much older oath that pilgrims would have used?

Black gate is a gate in the wall. Black crow was talking about moat cailin, not the wall.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

So you make a distinction between Original Others, who are anchored to a solid body, and Popsicles, who are vehicles for Original Others' spirits when they go a-roaming? Well, I think I follow it. I don't agree with it, but I think I get it.

(Sorry been out of town since Thursday).

Mostly yes. Specifically I'm calling the spirits of the disembodied "Old Gods" themselves as the Others. Those spirits get bound semi-permanently to a human baby. Once attached to said human baby who is of magical blood, they are able to manipulate Ice and wind and build themselves bodies of ice (SSM: they can do things with Ice we can't imagine) and can raise the dead to do their bidding.

Now, where did the first disembodied Old God get bound to the first human with magical blood? My guess is it happened for the first time at the Pact, and was then re-created by the Night's King.

[Jojen]

Black gate is a gate in the wall. Black crow was talking about moat cailin, not the wall.

D'oh! Guess that was my brainfart for the day. :blushing:

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Tatties an' neeps, braw :) Y' ken?

Oh, I ken - I do ken, y'all. I just sometimes hafta look things up...

.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

...I'm not sure about this but isn't the current belief that in addition to fighting the andals the "petty" kingdoms of the south eventually intermarried with them, and so did the North, so their peace (before the Targaryens) was made by marriage (not unlike Dorne and the 7 kingdoms, or many examples IRL).

That is definitely part of the story. And after a while it also starts to look like the claim to have/be "the blood of the First Men" is really just part of asserting a claim to nobility. Almost all of the ruling families make that claim - not just up North, but all over Westeros. House Arryn excepted, perhaps.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Double post.

[TheButcherCrow]

I think this is the secret of moat Cailin. No one attacks the north because the Crannogmen can destroy any southron invading armies. Even if an army does make it into moat cailin and takes the castle, its indefensible from the north, that is to say that moat cailin is impossible to hold against an army attacking from the north. This means that, even uninhabited, the moat could do its job. Basically, the castle isn't important, the whole neck is....

That's funny, Moat Cailin is built like the castles on the Wall, only defensible from one side. Is that significant?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Well, here is the thing. Hodor isn't stupid, he just can't communicate. Those two abilities aren't directly related, just look at Stephen Hawking. It's possible that Hodor knew the direwolves were in the crypts, and so didn't want to go down during AGOT for that reason. It's also possible he just doesn't like the crypts but is willing to go down in ACOK because he knew his life was in danger.....

Or perhaps Hodor is Martin's version of the Bee Boy - Kipling's apparent simpleton in Puck of Pook's Hill who turns out to have been blessed with second sight, etc, by the fae folk.

ETA: Maybe he "can see further into a millstone than most."

.

[TheNorthernWarrior]

That's funny, Moat Cailin is built like the castles on the Wall, only defensible from one side. Is that significant?

Not sure it was built that way, that is just how it currently stands or has for the past while.