How will Jon 'survve' the stabbing

[sweetsunray]

Because it's late for me and to add some humor in this topic...

Perhaps MIracle Max can save him, he knows what to do with someone who's mostly dead, but slightly alive. ;)

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

The Doctor!

He can cross whoverse to Westeros to save Jon from death.

[sj4iy]

Because it's late for me and to add some humor in this topic...

Perhaps MIracle Max can save him, he knows what to do with someone who's mostly dead, but slightly alive. ;)

You blave.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

Robb's headless ghost...just saying.

[Robb_Warged]

It's so frustrating he gets to survive his unexpected betrayal leading to a death, while more interesting characters aren't able to survive theirs

And look at the boring options we have for his survival: magic does it. Oh man. How great. And how convenient magic is there for plot-armor-shielded characters

[Kwitter]

I think he survives the initial stabbing by warging into Ghost. The Dance Prologue was there for a reason.

ohhhh, mindblown :bowdown:

[sj4iy]

It's so frustrating he gets to survive he's unexpected betrayal leading to a death, while more interesting characters aren't able to survive theirs

And look at the boring options we have for his survival: magic does it. Oh man. How great. And how convenient magic is there for plot-armor-shielded characters

All if the big main characters have plot armor. Tyrion and Dany have it, too. Like it or not, Jon was always one of those main characters.

But like others have said, there's nothing that says that Jon is dead. He wasn't dead at the end of the chapter, and he could very well survive his injuries without magic.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

He's a Stark. He can survive.

[UnmaskedLurker]

All if the big main characters have plot armor. Tyrion and Dany have it, too. Like it or not, Jon was always one of those main characters.

But like others have said, there's nothing that says that Jon is dead. He wasn't dead at the end of the chapter, and he could very well survive his injuries without magic.

I have been baffled by complaints of plot armor. Some of the characters--particularly the characters that are the main characters--have to make it basically to the end. So what do readers want? Would they prefer that these characters never encounter life threatening situation that they have to get out of? Remember that GRRM does not have to put these characters in situations in which they need "plot armor." GRRM can keep them safe and far from danger until they are needed to resolve the conflict at the endgame. But what is the excitement in that? People who complain about plot armor are arguing for a more boring story (or perhaps a story in which all the main characters die relatively early in the series--and then what?).

I am never clear on what these readers would prefer GRRM to do. They act like the characters just fall into these situations in a way that GRRM could never have avoided and then GRRM comes in and saves them unrealistically. But GRRM put them in the situation to begin with--he did not have to do that. He did that to make the story more interesting and exciting. Complaining about plot armor is just a silly concept to me. The only real alternative in an action/adventure fantasy story like ASOIAF would be a boring story (at least regarding the main characters principal actions). Is that really preferable?

[Robb_Warged]

I have been baffled by complaints of plot armor. Some of the characters--particularly the characters that are the main characters--have to make it basically to the end. So what do readers want? Would they prefer that these characters never encounter life threatening situation that they have to get out of? Remember that GRRM does not have to put these characters in situations in which they need "plot armor." GRRM can keep them safe and far from danger until they are needed to resolve the conflict at the endgame. But what is the excitement in that? People who complain about plot armor are arguing for a more boring story (or perhaps a story in which all the main characters die relatively early in the series--and then what?).

I am never clear on what these readers would prefer GRRM to do. They act like the characters just fall into these situations in a way that GRRM could never have avoided and then GRRM comes in and saves them unrealistically. But GRRM put them in the situation to begin with--he did not have to do that. He did that to make the story more interesting and exciting. Complaining about plot armor is just a silly concept to me. The only real alternative in an action/adventure fantasy story like ASOIAF would be a boring story (at least regarding the main characters principal actions). Is that really preferable?

My preferred characters to live over others

A young man putting a nation on his back and setting out to get his sisters (one a fan-favorite) back home safely after all the heartache the family had been put through is a more interesting story than what we got from Jon until his story arch became more interesting once Stannis shows up in the North.

Jon's death mirroring Robb's identically, and then Jon being allowed to escape death while the other isn't allowed to is adding insult to injury

The King in the North my brothers and sisters. The King in the North!

[Malchyor]

Huh, never considered that Jon might actually "convert" into an other, via ice magic, but given his Targ bloodline, that'd be terribly interesting to see played out in the story. kind of destroying the others from their side, maybe.

[UnmaskedLurker]

My preferred characters to live over others

A young man putting a nation on his back and setting out to get his sisters (one a fan-favorite) back home safely after all the heartache the family had been put through is a more interesting story than what we got from Jon until his story arch became more interesting once Stannis shows up in the North.

Jon's death mirroring Robb's identically, and then Jon being allowed to escape death while the other isn't allowed to is adding insult to injury

The King in the North my brothers and sisters. The King in the North!

That is not an alternative to plot armor. You are merely complaining that GRRM has written some parts that don't interest you. I am asking what would people prefer rather than the plot armor that GRRM seems to use for characters that are main characters that need to survive to the endgame.

[Mokymok]

I hope when he comes back he remembers the faces of the traitors and punish them. I hope he comes back changed, I mean, not like people saying a fire zombie, I want him to distance himself of how Lord Stark was, and stop trying being like him with all that honour, and becomes more cold and bitter, more like Stannis than Ned.

[sj4iy]

My preferred characters to live over others

A young man putting a nation on his back and setting out to get his sisters (one a fan-favorite) back home safely after all the heartache the family had been put through is a more interesting story than what we got from Jon until his story arch became more interesting once Stannis shows up in the North.

Jon's death mirroring Robb's identically, and then Jon being allowed to escape death while the other isn't allowed to is adding insult to injury

The King in the North my brothers and sisters. The King in the North!

Jon's attack didn't mirror Robb's at all.

Robb was trapped and turned on by the Freys with the help of the Lannisters. All of his allies were slaughtered because they were outnumbered.

Jon was betrayed by four of his own subordinates while he was surrounded by allies.

Robb was also never a POV character. Jon has been one of the main POV characters since the beginning.

They are not parallel.

Really, it seems that you are upset that a character you liked, Robb, was killed off while a character you don't care for, Jon, will not be. Well, welcome to ASoIaF.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I hope when he comes back he remembers the faces of the traitors and punish them. I hope he comes back changed, I mean, not like people saying a fire zombie, I want him to distance himself of how Lord Stark was, and stop trying being like him with all that honour, and becomes more cold and bitter, more like Stannis than Ned.

I highly doubt his attackers will get away without repercussions at some point. Jon will not be UnJon--it just does not work for TPTWP to be UnDead. But he will come back a "MAN" which I think means that he will make hard choices (not that he did not make hard choices before). Remember he already had no problem killing Janos Slynt.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

He already had problems with Janos Slynt.

[Julia H.]

Lots of good ideas on this thread.

I have been baffled by complaints of plot armor. Some of the characters--particularly the characters that are the main characters--have to make it basically to the end. So what do readers want? Would they prefer that these characters never encounter life threatening situation that they have to get out of? Remember that GRRM does not have to put these characters in situations in which they need "plot armor." GRRM can keep them safe and far from danger until they are needed to resolve the conflict at the endgame. But what is the excitement in that? People who complain about plot armor are arguing for a more boring story (or perhaps a story in which all the main characters die relatively early in the series--and then what?).

I am never clear on what these readers would prefer GRRM to do. They act like the characters just fall into these situations in a way that GRRM could never have avoided and then GRRM comes in and saves them unrealistically. But GRRM put them in the situation to begin with--he did not have to do that. He did that to make the story more interesting and exciting. Complaining about plot armor is just a silly concept to me. The only real alternative in an action/adventure fantasy story like ASOIAF would be a boring story (at least regarding the main characters principal actions). Is that really preferable?

Exactly. :agree:

Jon's attack didn't mirror Robb's at all.

Robb was trapped and turned on by the Freys with the help of the Lannisters. All of his allies were slaughtered because they were outnumbered.

Jon was betrayed by four of his own subordinates while he was surrounded by allies.

Robb was also never a POV character. Jon has been one of the main POV characters since the beginning.

They are not parallel.

Really, it seems that you are upset that a character you liked, Robb, was killed off while a character you don't care for, Jon, will not be. Well, welcome to ASoIaF.

They are absolutely different. Robb goes South. Jon goes North. Robb fights against the IT first to save, then to avenge his father. Jon fights to protect the realm against an outside threat. Robb conquers. Jon protects. Robb becomes a king immediately. Jon serves. Robb basically realizes boyhood dreams to emulate the Young Dragon that perhaps both Jon and Robb had as young boys (we know Jon did). Robb becomes the Young Wolf and dies young in the middle of an otherwise glorious campaign. Jon grows out of the idea of conquest and personal glory early on. Robb is a good military leader. Jon is a good leader. (To be fair, Jon has more time to learn and more mentors.) Leadership is Robb's birthright (even the crown). Jon becomes Lord Commander by earning the position. Robb wins all his battles but is seen to be losing the war even before the Red Wedding. Jon's war has just begun.

Both of them have enemies and supporters and both of them are betrayed and attacked. Robb dies. Jon will survive because his war and his story have not finished yet.

I highly doubt his attackers will get away without repercussions at some point. Jon will not be UnJon--it just does not work for TPTWP to be UnDead. But he will come back a "MAN" which I think means that he will make hard choices (not that he did not make hard choices before). Remember he already had no problem killing Janos Slynt.

It is not unlikely that the repercussions happen right at the spot. (I'm looking at Wun Wun now.)

I hope Jon will survive and be healed with as little magic as possible or at least that the magic involved will be magic already established in the series. Coming back from death is not an option. I don't think that the undead are fully alive. What I have seen from Lord Beric and Lady Catelyn, their perspectives and their personalites are considerably narrowed. I'm with Dolorous Edd, who doesn't think people improve with death. (I will allow that there might be exceptions, like Ramsay Bolton or Lord Tywin. :P ) Jon's story needs a Jon fully alive and human.

Do we know whether Melisandre has any healing power? (I mean in the sense of healing wounds and people who are not dead.) She has visions and she can do glamour magic and she can give birth to shadowbabies and she can arrange for people to die. Have we seen her heal any illnesses? Anyway ... I don't trust her.

Ghost and warging must play a part somewhere, but even in this case, Jon must stay alive because we know it from the prologue to Dance that a skinchanger warging into an animal while his body is dying will get stuck in that animal. There is a second life for him but only as an animal - unless he manages to warg a human being, which is neither easy nor ethical. (Besides, I wouldn't like Jon to live a second life in the shape of Bowen Marsh, for example. :eek: ) I agree that the prologue must be there for a reason - but it does not suggest that a dying Jon could be saved by warging into Ghost (unless Jon has powers that are extraordinary even in-universe). I can imagine, however, that Jon keeps an eye on what's going on via Ghost while he is recovering and perhaps he can even influence what's happening (like Bran). We know Jon has powerful abilities as a warg, only he hasn't used them yet, so it is probable that the wounds will force him to learn to use them.

I suspect that without some really extraordinary healing magic he will need some time to recover, and we haven't seen much of that kind of magic yet. There is a possibility that Bloodraven, Bran or the CotF will be involved, but I can't see any of them rushing to the Wall, so the involvement is likely to be via communication / advice or warging (unless Jon is taken to them somehow but that also seems to be difficult for various reasons).

I agree that the attack is likely to start a new phase in Jon's life so he probably won't be just returning to his old duties like:

- "Thank you, Ulmer, I can take the Wall back now. Have you burned what was left of Bowen Marsh's body?"

- "Aye, m'lord, and the rest of them, too."

- "You did well. Satin, go to the kitchen if you would and tell Hobb to send an extra portion of turnips to Wun Wun tonight. Did Tormund call?"

But Jon suddenly rising from a pyre as a "new person" (a Targaryen)... I don't know... It may not have the same effect on the spectators as on the readers. Even if they did realize he was a Targaryen, it would seem to be a bit premature discovery yet. Besides, it might be better for Jon to make this important (and probably shocking) discovery in private and have time to come to terms with it.

I don't think Jon will be formally or magically released from his vows by anyone. Maester Aemon told him about the pain of choosing and Jon has experienced it, too. If he is to leave the NW, it is likely that he will have to make that decision himself and live with the consequences.

[Ser Greg of House House]

I didn't really research much... But why do everybody assume if he's revived with a "red kiss" he'll be crazy like UnCat? Obviously it takes its toll, and it leaves scars. But even after he did it a lot, Beric seemed better than UnCat. I guess you can be ok, human-like after you do it one time if your wounds aren't that bad.

I've always assumed that UnCat is like that because she suffered severe trauma during the Red Wedding, her throat can't be fixed and she was rotting in the water for quite some time...

[Mokymok]

I didn't really research much... But why do everybody assume if he's revived with a "red kiss" he'll be crazy like UnCat? Obviously it takes its toll, and it leaves scars. But even after he did it a lot, Beric seemed better than UnCat. I guess you can be ok, human-like after you do it one time if your wounds aren't that bad.

I've always assumed that UnCat is like that because she suffered severe trauma during the Red Wedding, her throat can't be fixed and she was rotting in the water for quite some time...

Exactly, every time Beric was brought back to life, each time with fewer memories of his life. But still held honor and lead the BwB to defend the peasants.

[Julia H.]

I didn't really research much... But why do everybody assume if he's revived with a "red kiss" he'll be crazy like UnCat? Obviously it takes its toll, and it leaves scars. But even after he did it a lot, Beric seemed better than UnCat. I guess you can be ok, human-like after you do it one time if your wounds aren't that bad.

I've always assumed that UnCat is like that because she suffered severe trauma during the Red Wedding, her throat can't be fixed and she was rotting in the water for quite some time...

I can only speak for myself ... Crazy is not the word I would use. You see, I think the price of being resurrected with a red kiss (or by any other magic) is more than just scars. I see the undead as stuck in a very limited personality with limited options, limited responsibility and unable to develop further. This sort of "life" is not equivalent to the life people get when they are born. (If it were, I would regard it as a "lie" on the part of the author, especially as a way to save a major character. There is only so much humans can do - even by means of magic.) Catelyn Stark's story finished when she was killed. IMO, Uncat is not crazy, but essentially a new character in the novel, a half-real, half-symbolic goddess of vengeance like the Erinyes in Greek mythology, who are terribly looking women pursuing relentlessly those who have committed some horrendous crime. (Among other things, they deal with crimes committed by hosts against guests.)

Apart from the fact that it would feel odd if I suddenly found myself reading a book with undead Jon fighting against an undead army of wights (what are the living for if the (un)dead do everything for them?), I think Jon still has potential for further character development, he may still have choices and discoveries to make; therefore he needs his full humanity, his full ability to take responsibility and to experience complex feelings, his potential to develop and change.