How will Jon 'survve' the stabbing

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

No-Noes in my part:

1. No more zombies. We have Lady Stoneheart.
   
2. Mel's magic
   
3. Joe's actually died.
   

[bemused]

I've now seen a couple of people say that House Marsh owes fealty to the Boltons. That must be new(ish) info. Where does it come from ? I ask because when I was looking for information on Bowen some time ago ( well over a year), the wiki said it was subordinate to House Reed. It doesn't anymore. So ,does it come from the appendices? App? SSM? Game ? ... I'm curious.

There was also a map which had house names printed in the general area of their lands (either on this site or linked through the wiki) - Marsh appeared in the borderline area between south and north. I can't find this map anymore , either, but there are marshlands on official maps both immediately north and south of the neck. There are none marked anywhere near the Dreadfort , though I guess there could be some at the mouth of the Weeping Water. ( If so . they've yet to be mentioned .)

I believe the Marsh arms have only appeared recently in the wiki, as well (IIRC), perhaps in anticipation of the release of the World of Ice and Fire... and I know a Marsh has been mentioned recently ( though not much was said about him), maybe in The Princess and the Queen or in The Rogue Prince .. I'll have to check.

GRRM has been hiding the origins and affiliation of Bowen and his house all along , but they'll probably be revealed in the next book. My question is, if House Marsh is subject to House Bolton , has this been true historically , or is it simply something that can be said now , since Roose has been named Warden of the North by the IT ?

As something that could potentially explain a lot in the events in Jon's storyline, it seems odd to me that GRRM would reveal it fully off-page.

I want to respond to more ,but I'll have to do it on my notepad first . I expect many interruptions.. ;)

[sj4iy]

OK, I think I understand your theory better now. Still ... if Jon becomes the Other, IMO it should happen at the end of his story and by conscious choice. It seems to me just too convenient if he becomes the very subject that he has tried to research and understand by some lucky accident. (Dany also goes into the fire by choice and comes back unique but alive and human.) Jon is stabbed by Bowen Marsh and a couple of other people and, as a result, he does not die or survive as other people would do, but turns into something unique that allows him to be regarded as an Other but can retain enough humanity to remain a human hero as well? Can anyone have it both ways? The importance of having to choose and accept the consequences is too prominent in the novel.

However, if, at the end of his journey, Jon finds that the ultimate sacrifice to make or the ultimate task to be done in order to save the realms of men or to rebalance the elements of nature or to reconcile opposing forces involves his own transformation into the Other - well, I can see him making this decision. It could be his greatest (and for me, probably his most heartbreaking) moment in the story, with a much greater impact than the accidental transformation.

The passage that Maester Aemon pointed out to him... Of course, I may have been completely misled by a red herring, but I have seriously thought Jon has read the passage and learned that, unlike Stannis's sword, Lightbringer "was never cold to the touch".

"I looked at the book that Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai."

He did look at the book, and did read parts of it. Could it be that he only read about Azor Ahai because that topic interested him and never even looked at the real passage Aemon had marked for him? Would he do that? If the passage was about the Others, he surely read it. If it was something that seemed to be completely irrelevant or incomprehensible, he might at least have reflected on it... But I suppose that's really up to George, LOL.

The beauty of ASOIAF is that, no matter how much we think about what will happen, George will surprise us in the end.

:agree: Agreed. :)

I think it's very clear that Aemon wanted Jon to look at the pages about Azor Ahai and Lightbringer, given that right before that, Aemon had inspected Stannis' Lightbringer and declared it false. Why would Aemon want Jon to look that up? Probably because Aemon realizes that Melisandre has created Stannis to be something he's not, and Jon will now have to work with Melisandre and Stannis as Lord Commander. I think he's basically trying to warn Jon not to take everything Melisandre says as truth, and to be wary of her prophecies.

[Modesty Lannister]

I've now seen a couple of people say that House Marsh owes fealty to the Boltons. That must be new(ish) info. Where does it come from ? I ask because when I was looking for information on Bowen some time ago ( well over a year), the wiki said it was subordinate to House Reed. It doesn't anymore. So ,does it come from the appendices? App? SSM? Game ? ... I'm curious.

There was also a map which had house names printed in the general area of their lands (either on this site or linked through the wiki) - Marsh appeared in the borderline area between south and north. I can't find this map anymore , either, but there are marshlands on official maps both immediately north and south of the neck. There are none marked anywhere near the Dreadfort , though I guess there could be some at the mouth of the Weeping Water. ( If so . they've yet to be mentioned .)

I believe the Marsh arms have only appeared recently in the wiki, as well (IIRC), perhaps in anticipation of the release of the World of Ice and Fire... and I know a Marsh has been mentioned recently ( though not much was said about him), maybe in The Princess and the Queen or in The Rogue Prince .. I'll have to check.

GRRM has been hiding the origins and affiliation of Bowen and his house all along , but they'll probably be revealed in the next book. My question is, if House Marsh is subject to House Bolton , has this been true historically , or is it simply something that can be said now , since Roose has been named Warden of the North by the IT ?

As something that could potentially explain a lot in the events in Jon's storyline, it seems odd to me that GRRM would reveal it fully off-page.

I want to respond to more ,but I'll have to do it on my notepad first . I expect many interruptions.. ;)

This is the link to the relevant page of wiki of ice and fire.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Marsh

However, you may be right about your remark about House Bolton. I typed in House Dustin and Boltons came again as the overlords. However, house Marsh does not appear on the list of crannogmen houses. Yet, their sigil indicates they must be somehow connected to the Reeds. This is confirmed by this map

http://wearpinkwednesdays.com/game-of-thrones-beautifully-detailed-map-of-george-r-r-martins-westeros/ that shows that lands of the Marshes border lands of the Reeds.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

I'm hoping that the Starks coming back into play and Jon is still alive.

[sandywinder]

No more resurrections, please! I hope Jon survives his injuries normally or wargs into Ghost. But we have enough people coming back from the dead now, let's not make it too ridiculous! And killing Jon would be a massive surprise and I can't see it happening. But like someone already said I'd prefer a dead Jon Snow than an undead one.

I am thinking that if Jon wargs into Ghost, dies and gets resuscitated by Mel and then returns from Ghost he will not technically be UnJon.

[bemused]

Modesty Lannister ...

Thanks, that's what I thought... I've been reworking some stuff on Barbrey Dustin and just noticed that as well. OK then,the Dustins clinch it for me... they can make it official-for-now in the wiki , but I'm officially not buying it , historically speaking :D ( or eventually speaking , either , I hope.)

If it had come from a GRRM interview , that would be different.

I know that map and absolutely love it.. but that isn't even the one I saw before. It was just a black and white map with boring old words on it . Much less entertaining.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

After the battle of Ashford,Robert ,wounded ,hid in a brothel at Stoney Sept .My guess Jon is in Hardin's Tower protected by Wun Tun and healed by Morna and Val.The injuries received by Jon aren't necessarily fatal. There is a case in the 1800's where a person took a belly wound, the man was expect to die but he not only didn't he die his would allow the on board doctor to examine the digestive system.

[Hype_Train_Conductor]

Something along the lines of "Snow preserves." He might turn into something like Coldhands, and be ostracized to Beyond the Wall, where I hope he will meet up with Bran. Tinfoil hat off.

[OllyS]

I love how the word that has been spelled wrong in the title has been emphasized.

[Cold Feet]

As far as the show goes, perhaps LS will be cut because the whole idea of resurrections is really far fetched from real life, if they are planning on bringing Jon back. That way there haven't been a bunch of resurrections to muddy the waters. Plus if GRRM says that he will learn about his parentage, how can he do that if he is legit dead? Or how about Mel's vision of the face of a boy turning to a wolfs & back to a boy, or Jon's dream about being dressed in Obsidion armor with a glowing sword fucking already dead people up from on top of the wall?

I truely don't think he's going to stay dead. Without him, the Walls' story line becomes completely pointless. It would be awesome if 'his watch has ended' & he is able to march south to fuck some shit up though

[CharlesW]

After his "Brothers" Julius Caesared him, my first guess would be Mel fire-zombie him back to life. If you guys don't like that, then he better has a ER trauma team on standby within running distance.

[Modesty Lannister]

As far as the show goes, perhaps LS will be cut because the whole idea of resurrections is really far fetched from real life, if they are planning on bringing Jon back. That way there haven't been a bunch of resurrections to muddy the waters. Plus if GRRM says that he will learn about his parentage, how can he do that if he is legit dead? Or how about Mel's vision of the face of a boy turning to a wolfs & back to a boy, or Jon's dream about being dressed in Obsidion armor with a glowing sword fucking already dead people up from on top of the wall?

I truely don't think he's going to stay dead. Without him, the Walls' story line becomes completely pointless. It would be awesome if 'his watch has ended' & he is able to march south to fuck some shit up though

Both your points are very valid. Can you provide the quote of Mel's vision? I don't seem to recall it. The second dream led me to develop my theory. The only people we saw/read dressed like that are RT and the Others around the icehenge in S04E04.

[Kasakka]

After the battle of Ashford,Robert ,wounded ,hid in a brothel at Stoney Sept .My guess Jon is in Hardin's Tower protected by Wun Tun and healed by Morna and Val.The injuries received by Jon aren't necessarily fatal. There is a case in the 1800's where a person took a belly wound, the man was expect to die but he not only didn't he die his would allow the on board doctor to examine the digestive system.

This would be the best option IMO. The willdlings and Jon loyalists + Wun Tun would protect him as he recovers

[Cold Feet]

Both your points are very valid. Can you provide the quote of Mel's vision? I don't seem to recall it. The second dream led me to develop my theory. The only people we saw/read dressed like that are RT and the Others around the icehenge in S04E04.

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, lined in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it

So far Jon has been Jon up until his stabbing. Aside from dreams & shit of course. Since DoD placed a lot of foreshadowing with warging (SixSkins?) it makes sense that Jon wargs into Ghost at the last second, completing the first half of Mels vision. Now how will he become a boy man again? Resurrection from someone who can pull it off. Judging on Mel having said she asks for a glimpse of AAR but she is shown only Snow & that she saw his enemies, she seems to be the prime candidate for the honors. She has already stated she feels stronger at the Wall. When she talked to Thoros, she was confused and almost upset that he was able to bring people back, saying something along the lines of "this isnt right" or "you should be able to do this".

If D&D actually cut LS, its a very good chance its because they don't want to overwhelm the viewers with a whole bunch of resurrections. Plus I'm sure they know how Brienne & Jamies arc are going to end & they can just finish them in some other way while still making sure the important plot points are hit. Honestly, if they do go this route I'd be totally fine with it as long as Jon will live.. sort of..

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

I can see Jon f*cking some s*it up down south. He will go after the Boltons and those who betrayed the Starks. He will go to KL and possibly kick some Lannister butt.

[Modesty Lannister]

So far Jon has been Jon up until his stabbing. Aside from dreams & shit of course. Since DoD placed a lot of foreshadowing with warging (SixSkins?) it makes sense that Jon wargs into Ghost at the last second, completing the first half of Mels vision. Now how will he become a boy man again? Resurrection from someone who can pull it off. Judging on Mel having said she asks for a glimpse of AAR but she is shown only Snow & that she saw his enemies, she seems to be the prime candidate for the honors. She has already stated she feels stronger at the Wall. When she talked to Thoros, she was confused and almost upset that he was able to bring people back, saying something along the lines of "this isnt right" or "you should be able to do this".

If D&D actually cut LS, its a very good chance its because they don't want to overwhelm the viewers with a whole bunch of resurrections. Plus I'm sure they know how Brienne & Jamies arc are going to end & they can just finish them in some other way while still making sure the important plot points are hit. Honestly, if they do go this route I'd be totally fine with it as long as Jon will live.. sort of..

I'd be careful about mixing the books and the show in my head. In the books, Mel and Thoros never met. The show is increasingly having a life of its own and at this stage it does not resemble books much. I fear this trend will continue. I did rely on the icehenge scene, because I guess it is too important to be invented by D&D without George's consent, but I may be wrong.

As for the quote, it does not convince me when it comes to Jon warging into a Ghost with his last breath. First of all, Sixskins was an accomplished warg. Jon is doing stuff unconsciously and does not have anyone to teach him how to warg like Jojen did with Bran. So, I'm not convinced he can do it. Secondly, and this is why I probably forgot about this quote, I don't read it the same way you do. Mel seeing a wolf and a boy is her seeing a reality of Jon being half-Stark and having warging abilities. Sculls around him are something else. What sculls? Sculls from the crypts of Winterfell? Dragon-skulls in the Red Keep? Skulls in the BR cave? It's inconclusive. However, nothing points out to the warging with Jon's last breath the way I read it. But, we all read it differently and that's the beauty of it.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

I'd be careful about mixing the books and the show in my head. In the books, Mel and Thoros never met. The show is increasingly having a life of its own and at this stage it does not resemble books much. I fear this trend will continue. I did rely on the icehenge scene, because I guess it is too important to be invented by D&D without George's consent, but I may be wrong.

As for the quote, it does not convince me when it comes to Jon warging into a Ghost with his last breath. First of all, Sixskins was an accomplished warg. Jon is doing stuff unconsciously and does not have anyone to teach him how to warg like Jojen did with Bran. So, I'm not convinced he can do it. Secondly, and this is why I probably forgot about this quote, I don't read it the same way you do. Mel seeing a wolf and a boy is her seeing a reality of Jon being half-Stark and having warging abilities. Sculls around him are something else. What sculls? Sculls from the crypts of Winterfell? Dragon-skulls in the Red Keep? Skulls in the BR cave? It's inconclusive. However, nothing points out to the warging with Jon's last breath the way I read it. But, we all read it differently and that's the beauty of it.

They are getting closer to Winds of Winter on the show. They are on AFFC and ADWD. I am not surprised they did not do the Jon "stuff" in the show yet. They did not do "Jon is LC" in the show yet. The show is constantly changing things. We all have to understand they have a budget go by for CGl and other things.

[Cas Stark]

I remain perplexed that so many people believe Jon is going to die and be brought back as another zombie.

[sj4iy]

After his "Brothers" Julius Caesared him, my first guess would be Mel fire-zombie him back to life. If you guys don't like that, then he better has a ER trauma team on standby within running distance.

Bran's injuries were far worse and he survived.