Maybe Lyanna had a miscarriage?

[HexMachina]

I feel I should quote Angalin

In order to keep this single theory from proliferating like bacteria and eating the board, I suggest moving discussion over to this(R+L=J, my phone ate the link though) thread.

[Freddie starrk]

Not to turn this into another r+l=Jon thread ,but Sean bean recently said in an interview that ned stark is not Jon's father.

[Ygrain]

Not to turn this into another r+l=Jon thread ,but Sean bean recently said in an interview that ned stark is not Jon's father.

Yeah, that as well, among tons of other clues.

BTW, years ago, Kit Harrington slipped in an interview, saying "Jon doesn't know who his parents are - who his mother is". He'd never have said "parents" if he didn't know that Ned is not the father.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Yeah, that as well, among tons of other clues.

BTW, years ago, Kit Harrington slipped in an interview, saying "Jon doesn't know who his parents are - who his mother is". He'd never have said "parents" if he didn't know that Ned is not the father.

That and right now the only parentage of consequence is R+L. I am not sure the other possibilities carry as much weight, and, considering that, it seems silly for Martin to keep it a secret for so long if it didn't mean something really special.

[Debra Morgan]

1) Ahem, "bed of blood".

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood. (AGOT

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses (AGOT)

“Before,” Dany said to the ugly Lhazareen woman, “I heard you speak of birthing songs …”

“I know every secret of the bloody bed, Silver Lady, nor have I ever lost a babe,” Mirri Maz Duur replied. (AGOT)

“The Lamb Woman knows the secrets of the birthing bed,” Irri said. “She said so, I heard her.” (AGOT)

That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain. (Damphair, AFFC)

Those are the sole uses of the phrase within the series, referring solely and exclusively to childbirth, so, yes, we can.

2) Why is his mother a secret then? (see the reference guide in the first post of the pinned R+L thread for details)

3) GRRM used an explicitely stated piece of gossip as a test question for the show makers? What was he testing with it, their memory? And BTW, when did Ashara sneak into the Northerners' camp to have a tryst with Ned during the Rebellion?

Ok, but it doesn't prove that Rhaegar is father.

[Le Cygne]

GRRM seems to think it important, too:

"They have been not doing a lot with the prehistory... There are some references to it but not a lot. Sooner or later, they are going to have to deal with Rhaegar and Lyanna and what happened between them, and the battle of the Trident, and all of these things, and the mad king... Certainly in the books, the past, the present, and the future all reflect upon each other and are a part of it..."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/04/game-of-thrones-season-3-characters_n_1854918.html

[Debra Morgan]

Yeah, that as well, among tons of other clues.

BTW, years ago, Kit Harrington slipped in an interview, saying "Jon doesn't know who his parents are - who his mother is". He'd never have said "parents" if he didn't know that Ned is not the father.

Do you really think that Kit doesn't know about this theory?

[Le Cygne]

Ok, but it doesn't prove that Rhaegar is father.

I'm sure Ygrain will come up with something better, but come on... She's in the Tower of Joy. "Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna..."

[Debra Morgan]

I'm sure Ygrain will come up with something better, but come on... She's in the Tower of Joy. "Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna..."

Nobody knows

[JonisHenryTudor]

Ok, but it doesn't prove that Rhaegar is father.

Unless she was raped by someone which seems unlikely, there are only two men who seem to have been fighting for her affection: Bobby and Rhaegar. The KG stood outside, and given the context it seems unlikely that they would be guarding Lyanna for no other reason then to protect Rhaegar's child.

[Mikkel]

Well Debra Morgan is right, in so far as it's not absolutely proven yet, but it is proven beyond reasonable doubt (not that this is a trial... yet :P).

[Le Cygne]

Nobody knows

Well, I think he's very clearly saying they fucked. This is an author that loves phallic symbolism. I guess she could have secretly fucked someone else in the Tower of Joy while hottie Rhaegar was sleeping. /sarcasm

[JonisHenryTudor]

Well, I think he's very clearly saying they fucked. This is an author that loves phallic symbolism. I guess she could have secretly fucked someone else in the Tower of Joy while hottie Rhaegar was sleeping. /sarcasm

Immaculate conception 2.0....why not everything else is 2.0....

[Debra Morgan]

Well, I think he's very clearly saying they fucked.

Where? Robert's words are only his guesses.

[Consigliere]

Where? Robert's words are only his guesses.

Well if things were spelled out so explicitly then it would not be much of a mystery, now would it? I have no doubt that Lyanna is Jon's mother and once that conclusion is reached then the only logical option for the father is Rhaegar.

[Ygrain]

Ok, but it doesn't prove that Rhaegar is father.

You have there Dayne and Whent and possibly some servant(s) or some random encounter on the road. Not really sure which of these guys as a father would present a dangerous secret which had to be kept from Catelyn, or if Rhaegar might have abducted Lyanna to sing her song in the moonlight while someone else was shagging her, or if Ned would think Dayne the finest knight ever he was the culprit, or what kind of narrative purpose would Whent serve when all we know about him was that he was Batman (ditto an unknown guy as father). You may also wonder why, for a fourteen-years-dead guy, Rhaegar pops up every couple of pages in the books.

Do you really think that Kit doesn't know about this theory?

"Jon doesn't know who his parents are". This is a slip of one in the know, not just one familiar with a theory.

Besides, this is a microfibreman of an argument.

[RainGhost]

It's possible that Lyanna had a miscarriage. Until anything is canon, R+L=J is still a theory. I'd actually quite like it if GRRM surprised us with who Jon's parents are - he's spoiled us with surprises so far. If R+L=J is true, then I think he foreshadowed it a bit too much but I'll let him off for this - the books are generally excellent.

[Ygrain]

It's possible that Lyanna had a miscarriage. Until anything is canon, R+L=J is still a theory. I'd actually quite like it if GRRM surprised us with who Jon's parents are - he's spoiled us with surprises so far. If R+L=J is true, then I think he foreshadowed it a bit too much but I'll let him off for this - the books are generally excellent.

Sorry but no. The "bed of blood" and its meaning is canon, and so are the clues planted in the text. Unless GRRM manages a different explanation for them while keeping the coherence of the story, the clues will lead to what they all have been consistently pointing at, and this is R+L.

Besides, there are tons of folks who never figured it out on their own, so it is really not so obvious.

[Le Cygne]

Where? Robert's words are only his guesses.

Tower of Joy. Tower. Of joy. Rhaegar's tower of joy ain't got nothing to do with Robert. Everything to do with Lyanna.

[Wavey Sauce]

I cant believe some people still debate this, or take the troll bait?

If King Rob knew that Jon was part targ and even worse from the chick he loved he would send a whole army to kill him off if he had to