The Tower of Joy

[OldtownStonecuttersGuild]

I

Rhaegar probably just wanted to hide there with Arthur and Whent to make Dornish orgies plans about taking down Aerys. He didn't expect to raise a family there*. Either way, taking Lyanna and some servants couldn't destabilized the whole thing. They didn't have wild thunderous sex like Spike and Buffy (R and L, not the servants).

*although we've theorised that after Harrenhall, Elia put R's bags outside Dragonstone and after all the alimony he has to pay and the fact he pretty much put the money for the tourney, that shitty tower is all he can afford now.... he was also expecting to take the other two children to the towers for the weekends...

How long was Lyanna cooped up in the tower? What do you figure she was doing all this time apart from eating iced cream and pickles? I imagine you can only listen to a forlorn harp wielding Raeghar for so long before you want to smash the harp into a thousand pieces.

[CrypticWeirwood]

The “how” is the easy question to answer, but it is not the interesting question. The interesting and much harder question is the “why” part of it.

The “how” is easily explained: the Lord of Greywater Watch was there. You know, that little guy who moves his castle around all the time so nobody can find it? Howland Reed merely used the earth-moving magic he learnt on the Isle of Faces to make the Tower of Joy come tumbling down. There is no mystery here: the magic that smashed the Arm of Dorn and made the Neck would have had no trouble with a little bit of stonework.

The truly interesting question that nobody answers satisfactorily, the real mystery that needs solving, is why was it so bloody important that that Tower be razed? Why was it imperative that no other person ever find it intact after Ned had left? What thing or fact or circumstance or knowledge was thereby forever hidden by reducing the Tower to dust and rubble?

Is this how Howland Reed saved Ned from the Sword of the Morning, the finest knight Ned had ever seen? Did the little crannogman dissolve the very floor beneath Arthur Dayne’s feet during the final fateful battle? Would Ned have found that a dishonorable way to have survived? It might be so, but that doesn’t seem a good enough excuse to destroy the Tower, not by itself.

Could there have been something else than this? What about those who were buried beneath the cairns, cairns of heavy boulders that no one would ever tear apart to look beneath? Why would their corpses need hiding? Wouldn’t they just have burned them if that were all it was?

The most likely answer must surely be that Jon’s secret identity was somehow hidden by this action. The Tower must have been brought down to somehow save young Jon’s life — and Ned’s life too, since he would have lost his head for being a traitor to Robert by hiding the last Targaryen heir to the Iron Throne, the ones the sworn Kingsguard had just given their lives to protect. They would have tried to make Jon king if any had lived, so they had to die to keep the secret and allow Jon to live a life where he would not be forced onto the Iron Throne, or killed just for being who we was.

But even that shouldn’t have required the Tower’s destruction. What was in there that required destroying the Tower to keep people form learning something? Was razing the Tower somehow part of Ned’s promise to his dying sister?

[Musashisamurai]

I've sometimes thought-given the King Arthur references in Arthur Dayne, specifically about Avalon-that maybe Arthur survived, and they buried all the bodies plus an empty grave/cairn to through other people off. By returning the sword and destroying the tower, they ensured they'd get no grave robbers looking for Dawn.

This might also explain the bannermen Robb sent to Greywater Watch-if they saw Arthur Dayne, maybe that's why they haven't showed up again-its not like Howland's gonna let them blab all over the North what happened

[kimim]

The “how” is the easy question to answer, but it is not the interesting question. The interesting and much harder question is the “why” part of it.

...

I agree. It's the kind of thing Robert would do in a rage, but it's out of character for Ned. Also, why did he use the stones from the tower to bury the people who died in the fight? It's not traditional, and Ned is totally traditional. If he wanted to hide the bodies, he could have burned them, as you say. It couldn't be punishment a la Frey pies, as he does it to his own men, and brings back Dayne's sword to Starfall. It's such a weird thing to do.

[markg171]

I think it is safe to say there were other people there. The King's Guard and Tower would have servants, as would Ned and his company. Also, we know only 6 and his 6 friends fought, but did his army, or part of his army come with him from Storm's End? Is that ever expressly stated that Ned left all his forces behind or anything like that?

Well we are told that the tower was located in the mountains of Dorne. Ned couldn't bring his army to the tower as you'd have to use a trail to get the tower which would make that impossible, but he could leave them waiting in the Pass. Which actually is hinted at a few times in the novels.

- Ned's soldiers have info about Ned's doings after Storm's End. Cat says that Ned's soldiers told their wives that Ned killed Arthur Dayne, and then visited Starfall after the Tower of Joy. Ned and Howland aren't the boasting types, so who told the soldiers what Ned was getting up to if he left them all behind?

- Someone needed to subdue Dorne. After Storm's End, Dorne was the only kingdom who hadn't yielded to Robert yet. Their army was smashed at the Trident, but only Doran, who wasn't there, could officially yield so Dorne hadn't yielded yet. So someone had to go do that, which would explain why Ned was in Dorne. While Dorne's army might have been destroyed, Ned would know that he'd have to actually have the force necessary to cause people to submit or risk annihilation if they wouldn't. Which he'd need an army for. Now Jon Arryn eventually broke the treaty to cause Doran to submit, but after Ned found Lyanna dead, why would Ned have bothered, hence why Jon was eventually the one to accept their submission? The girl that he and Robert had been fighting for hadn't survived, Robert was already on the throne, and Dorne had no army. So it wasn't a pressing concern anymore

- We are told that Ned left to fight wars in the south when he left King's Landing after the Sack. We know of Storm's End, which wasn't a war, and the fight at the Tower of Joy, which also wasn't a war. So we are missing some wars here, and Ned would need armies for that.

[Ygrain]

I agree. It's the kind of thing Robert would do in a rage, but it's out of character for Ned. Also, why did he use the stones from the tower to bury the people who died in the fight? It's not traditional, and Ned is totally traditional. If he wanted to hide the bodies, he could have burned them, as you say. It couldn't be punishment a la Frey pies, as he does it to his own men, and brings back Dayne's sword to Starfall. It's such a weird thing to do.

Cremating eight grown men takes quite a lot of wood, and arid areas are not known for abundant forestation.

[sarah.jenice]

I always figured Wylla was the wet nurse since Edric Dayne told Arya he and Jon were milk brothers.

I hope we get to learn more about the Daynes. Other than Howland Reed, if anyone knows more about the ToJ and Jon, it's them. Well, hopefully it doesn't involve Darkstar. He's too dangerous and all.

[TheHoundJR]

Honestly, I love conspiracy/tin-foil theories. But, people, how the Tower came down is not important (like someone else said). GRRM will make it go down however he wants it to go down. The WHY is the important factor.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Honestly, I love conspiracy/tin-foil theories. But, people, how the Tower came down is not important (like someone else said). GRRM will make it go down however he wants it to go down. The WHY is the important factor.

Yes, and we don’t know the answer. I haven’t even seen any speculation. It’s an important question.

[kimim]

"It was said that Rhaegar had named it the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory." Maybe the memory was so bitter that Ned wanted it gone from the world.

There is no reason to assume that Ned would be overjoyed to discover that his sister ran off with Rhaegar. Ned would know that her decision led to the deaths of their father and brother. He had recently left Robert in a "cold rage" after seeing the corpses of Rhaegar's children. He took part in a civil war which killed thousands of people. He had to kill three good knights, and watch as his own men died.

There are hints that Ned was furious when he met Lyanna; you can see that in the quality of Lyanna's begging, which reminds him of Sansa's begging for the life of Lady: "He remembered Rhaegar's infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry's audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, the way Lyanna had pleaded once."

So Ned walks in, bloody, in a rage, to find that his sister is dying, too, but there is a child. She pleads with him--possibly HAS to plead with him--and he does what Robert would never do, shows mercy, spares the child, comforts his sister.

After she dies, he destroys the tower, as it is a symbol of everything that's wrong with the world, not a tower of joy.

[Sword of the Morgan]

Everything about the ToJ seems kind of fishy. Why didn't Ned return the Bones of the KG members he respected so much, especially when he returned Dawn to Starfall? Why not bring the bones of Arthur Dayne with the sword? It just doesn't make sense. It makes me think that either some or all of the KG members were still alive (and they helped bring the tower down) or they were killed in some odd fashion (perhaps Howland's doing). I really want to know exactly what went down there, and I hope we get the whole story from either Howland or Bran.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Any Kingsguard would have guarded his king to the gallow’s foot — and after. They swore a vow.

[239JMFL34109]

Everything about the ToJ seems kind of fishy. Why didn't Ned return the Bones of the KG members he respected so much, especially when he returned Dawn to Starfall? Why not bring the bones of Arthur Dayne with the sword? It just doesn't make sense. It makes me think that either some or all of the KG members were still alive (and they helped bring the tower down) or they were killed in some odd fashion (perhaps Howland's doing). I really want to know exactly what went down there, and I hope we get the whole story from either Howland or Bran.

there is also why he came with only 7 guys? why he knocked tower down possibly burned it? short of salting the earth there cannot be more signs that something is up with the tower.

[Mal Malenkirk]

"It was said that Rhaegar had named it the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory." Maybe the memory was so bitter that Ned wanted it gone from the world.

There is no reason to assume that Ned would be overjoyed to discover that his sister ran off with Rhaegar. Ned would know that her decision led to the deaths of their father and brother. He had recently left Robert in a "cold rage" after seeing the corpses of Rhaegar's children. He took part in a civil war which killed thousands of people. He had to kill three good knights, and watch as his own men died.

There are hints that Ned was furious when he met Lyanna; you can see that in the quality of Lyanna's begging, which reminds him of Sansa's begging for the life of Lady: "He remembered Rhaegar's infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry's audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, the way Lyanna had pleaded once."

So Ned walks in, bloody, in a rage, to find that his sister is dying, too, but there is a child. She pleads with him--possibly HAS to plead with him--and he does what Robert would never do, shows mercy, spares the child, comforts his sister.

After she dies, he destroys the tower, as it is a symbol of everything that's wrong with the world, not a tower of joy.

Interesting take on it, I like it.

When the reader sees the confrontation between Ned and the King's guard, it's filtered through a dream. It feels peaceful and melancolic but that may not reflect accurately what happened because 15 years later Ned has come to terms with what happened. At the time, the real confrontation might have been a lot more emotional (whilst likely still producing the same information we learnt in the dream sequence).

[CrypticWeirwood]

So Ned walks in, bloody, in a rage,...

Rage? When did the Quiet Wolf ever once “rage”?

Coldly he broods, grimly he grieves, bitterly he remembers. But never once does he rage.

Rage is Robert. Rage is Brandon. Rage is Aerys. For rage is fire — and fire consumes.

But rage is not Eddard. For Eddard is ice — and ice preserves.

[Destination Mantarys]

Ser Jaime - Also with regards to the remains being buried near the tower: The decision not to bring back the remains of the Northmen killed there is also a strange one, with far reaching implications, especially considering that Ned went through the trouble to just send Lady's bones back to Winterfell in order for her to have a proper burial. I would think that if they had the man power they would have certainly at least tried to bring the bones of the Northmen back to their lands, as Ned is obviously beholden to so many like traditions in the North.

Think about Lady Dustin's pure hatred for the Starks. Obviously it has a complicated genesis (with Brandon among other things), but she reveals to Theon in the crypts how she blames Ned for the death of her husband. Part of this has to do with the fact that she was never able to pay her proper respects and talks disdainfully about her husband languishing in some unmarked grave in the south. The other bizarre aspect is that I think Ned even brings her back the beautiful horse she gave him before he left! Why would he risk the eternal wrath of a bannerman/woman by leaving her husbands remains in the south, while instead bringing her back the horse. I would think the two aren't mutually exclusive

[kimim]

Rage? When did the Quiet Wolf ever once “rage”?

Coldly he broods, grimly he grieves, bitterly he remembers. But never once does he rage.

Rage is Robert. Rage is Brandon. Rage is Aerys. For rage is fire — and fire consumes.

But rage is not Eddard. For Eddard is ice — and ice preserves.

After the death of Rhaegar's children, "Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south."

[DigUpHerBones]

IMO, Ned was knocked unconscious as the 3KG were given specific instructions to NOT KILL NED UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE, by the time he woke up everyone was dead with the exception of Howland, who is holding a baby.

Tower down, graves built.

Howland, through his magical ways is able to plant a version of the story in Ned's head that Ned believes is true (Ned rode with 7, and defeated the 3KG in honorable battle and made a promise to Lyanna.)

When the truth is something far, far, more construed and dark.

It is why Ned views his life and actions as a failure, something is just not mashing right in his head when he thinks about the ToJ.

That is my take on it, not relying on Neds dreams under Milk of Poppy, anyone who has taken Tylenol 3 with Codine for a week or so could tell you some of the dreams they had on opiates, could not imagine straight poppy...

[Snark_Tamer]

The “how” is the easy question to answer, but it is not the interesting question. The interesting and much harder question is the “why” part of it.

The “how” is easily explained: the Lord of Greywater Watch was there. You know, that little guy who moves his castle around all the time so nobody can find it? Howland Reed merely used the earth-moving magic he learnt on the Isle of Faces to make the Tower of Joy come tumbling down. There is no mystery here: the magic that smashed the Arm of Dorn and made the Neck would have had no trouble with a little bit of stonework.

The truly interesting question that nobody answers satisfactorily, the real mystery that needs solving, is why was it so bloody important that that Tower be razed? Why was it imperative that no other person ever find it intact after Ned had left? What thing or fact or circumstance or knowledge was thereby forever hidden by reducing the Tower to dust and rubble?

-snip-

I was wondering if anyone was going to bring up the hopping Greywater Watch--I definitely think Howland knows a bit about rearranging real estate. And I agree WHY is much more important and that while Jon's birth is a critical secret of the place, that could have been handled by fire or something much simpler.

I've sometimes thought-given the King Arthur references in Arthur Dayne, specifically about Avalon-that maybe Arthur survived, and they buried all the bodies plus an empty grave/cairn to through other people off. By returning the sword and destroying the tower, they ensured they'd get no grave robbers looking for Dawn.

This might also explain the bannermen Robb sent to Greywater Watch-if they saw Arthur Dayne, maybe that's why they haven't showed up again-its not like Howland's gonna let them blab all over the North what happened

And this is the conclusion I've come to, too--that bodies buried in a pile of rocks might be a very good way to hide that one of them (Arthur) is missing... Maybe word had come that Aegon (whether really him or not) had been saved and so he made a bargain with Ned--they'd each protect one of the heirs...

[Elm Tree]

Well, it's fishy. We don't have much information and what we do have is quite vague. I find it hard to say that either Rhaegar or Lyanna is in the wrong, for example. We don't know their intentions, little of their actions en even less about their personalities. And the (once again little) information from the World Book makes this even more strange.