Sansa's Empowerment Arc & The Future

[Sultan of Westeros]

What annoys me is that they could have cut the Jeyne Poole arc or the Dorne arc entirely (how much do they actually add, we already know Ramsay is evil and Theon is a mess and Dorne is just terrible) and replaced them with fAegon OR Kingsmoot, my problem is that they picked two unnecessary arcs over two that would have been far better

Kingsmoot and Greyjoy brothers would have been more awesome in television adaptation

[Mladen]

Mentor? They had literally one conversation in total.

If we are nitpicking, they talked two times :)

First of all, we can argue on whether or not it is rape, because I think you can’t consider it that way. But since that is not allowed, I won’t go into that. Let’s name it sex without enjoying it.

Actually, we can't. This was a rape. And even those who have written and acted this said it was a rape. This wasn't "sex without enjoyment". This was plain rape and naming it any other way would be gross misinterpretation.

[Winter's Knight]

If we are nitpicking, they talked two times :)

Actually, we can't. This was a rape. And even those who have written and acted this said it was a rape. This wasn't "sex without enjoyment". This was plain rape and naming it any other way would be gross misinterpretation.

:agree:

[Ted Chang]

If we are nitpicking, they talked two times :)

Actually, we can't. This was a rape. And even those who have written and acted this said it was a rape. This wasn't "sex without enjoyment". This was plain rape and naming it any other way would be gross misinterpretation.

To play Devil's Advocate, it looks like quite a few people are misinterpreting things then.

[David Selig]

If we are nitpicking, they talked two times :)

Oops, my bad. :blush:

[Winter's Knight]

To play Devil's Advocate, it looks like quite a few people are misinterpreting things then.

Quite a few people think the Earth is 6,000 years old.

What's your point?

[Ted Chang]

Quite a few people think the Earth is 6,000 years old.

What's your point?

My point is that no matter how right you think you are, you don't speak for everybody.

[Roxane De]

Do you guys want this topic to be locked ?

Back to the discussion "what will be Sansa's story arc from now on": when I watched the episode I thought of The Pillars of the Earth. Maybe the best outcome for Sansa would be to give the order to open the gates when Stannis arrives. I would hate that she has to leave Winterfell after all the trouble she had to go through, that would have been completely pointless to have her escape. Maybe Theon will escape and she will refuse to follow him, creating another "WTF" moment for the viewers like the time she refused to leave with the Hound. I would be okay with this scenario.

[jbob]

Does Sansa need to be empowered, though? We've got other powerful women in the show. And then there are different kinds of empowerment. Isn't Arya being empowered? They can't all have the same storyline.

I look at what happened to Sansa as similar to what happened to Theon and his castration, Jaime loses his sword hand and other characters losing something about themselves. Similar thing will happen to Cersei and Jon. Not rape specifically. She hasn't suffered that much in comparison to other characters. She got beaten up, and lived under threat of death. Dany and Theon's had it worse in my opnion,

I especially don't agree with this idea that Sansa has/had any choice. Either in the books or the show. Her choice has been taken from her since the end of season 1. LF may act like he gives her a choice. But all I see is manipulation. Telling her exactly what she wants to hear. All for his own ends.

Any, we've still got 2 more seasons to go.

PS. I don't buy this argument that D+D has used rape too many times. How many times has GRRM used murder or torture to advance the plot? Why is that okay?

[Ted Chang]

Does Sansa need to be empowered, though? We've got other powerful women in the show. And then there are different kinds of empowerment. Isn't Arya being empowered? They can't all have the same storyline.

I look at what happened to Sansa as similar to what happened to Theon and his castration, Jaime loses his sword hand and other characters losing something about themselves. Similar thing will happen to Cersei and Jon. Not rape specifically. She hasn't suffered that much in comparison to other characters. She got beaten up, and lived under threat of death. Dany and Theon's had it worse in my opnion,

And we've still got 2 more seasons to go.

PS. I don't buy this argument that D+D has used rape too many times. How many times has GRRM used murder or torture to advance the plot? Why is that okay?

I think D&D made a rod for their own back by talking about empowerment in the first place. It's such a 21st century term and it's a pretty ropey one at that. It was only created to make politicians' lives easier in the face of pressure groups. Promise a bit of 'empowerment' and they'll be happy, sort of thing. I just see the girl as growing up during a period of alternate history in a world created by an author who clearly wants to show where women stand sexually. Anybody who cannot accept how he has painted things will never be able to move on. I think Sansa is going to come out of things just fine. It's just that she has been given a particularly rocky road to travel.

[RJDLM]

Does Sansa need to be empowered, though? We've got other powerful women in the show. And then there are different kinds of empowerment. Isn't Arya being empowered? They can't all have the same storyline.

I look at what happened to Sansa as similar to what happened to Theon and his castration, Jaime loses his sword hand and other characters losing something about themselves. Similar thing will happen to Cersei and Jon. Not rape specifically. She hasn't suffered that much in comparison to other characters. She got beaten up, and lived under threat of death. Dany and Theon's had it worse in my opnion,

And we've still got 2 more seasons to go.

PS. I don't buy this argument that D+D has used rape too many times. How many times has GRRM used murder or torture to advance the plot? Why is that okay?

it doesn't has to be empowerment, just growth/change, it doesn't has to be positive, just change, she is back where she was in series 2 as an abused victim held captive by a psychotic character, that isn't change it is repetitive

I agree the show and the books use trauma to drive the show onward, eg Bran losing his legs, Jon losing Ygritte, Jaime losing his sword, Tyrion killing Shae, Jorah being exiled again, Brienne losing Renly, Stannis becoming increasingly messed up, Davos losing his children, but when it comes to the women it seems rape, sex or sexual violence is the go to strategy, the one time the avoided this route well is Cat losing Rob, (and that was GRRM, not D&D) and they failed to follow that up with the UnCat storyline,, it is not that Sansa got messed up that I have a problem with, there were better ways to do LF killing SweetRobin perhaps? Regardless ofwhether or not it was sexist it was lazy and repetitive, and for what? We know Ramsay is evil and Theon is messed up and Sansa is an abuse victim, how much did the arc add that we didn't know?

[jet199]

There is a big misuse of the word empowerment on all sides. Surely empowerment means to gain power. We shouldn't be talking about women being empowered, we should be talking about women becoming powerful. If you think of it on those terms then the only really empowered women at this point in the story are Cersei, Marg, Dany and Mel.

The traditional meaning of empowerment is also not necessarily a great thing as it often means that someone is allowing you to have power rather than you having it in your own right. LF might of empowered Sansa but that is not the same a having real power.

[OldGimletEye]

LF's most useful political asset is LF. As for the Boltons being bozos he knew little about... really? You sure they aren't a long time noble family? Sansa was a card and he played her. There's no point having a card in your hand and not using it. How many times have we heard the phrase 'use it or lose it'? I think it applies here. A lot of people are coming down on LF suddenly being a thicko because he is manipulating favoured characters into bad situations. That doesn't make him thick. It makes him scheming. He's playing the Game the best way he can... the clue's in the title. LF is highly cunning but he's not infallible. What he most certainly isn't is stupid.

Not even LF can pull prime grade AAA political legitimacy out of his butt. Sansa Stark, heir to the North, would have provided an enormous amount of legitimacy to LF's intended incursion into the North. Without the legitimacy that she provides, conquering and holding the North becomes much more difficult as show!Boltons would attest to. Show!LF needs Sansa's endorsement. If she were to die or change her opinion about him, his plans for the North would be seriously degraded.

The reason I said that show!LF knew little about the Boltons is because Cogman said that show!LF did not know about what a nut job Ramsay was. But, Cogman also said that show!LF knew the Boltons could not be fully trusted. The fact that show!LF knew the Bolton's could not be fully trusted makes his entrusting Sansa to them even worse. You don't expose an asset like that unless you really have to. And, in my opinion, show!LF didn't have to.

Evidently, show!LF tried to use Sansa as a way to politically isolate the Boltons from Cersei Lannister. Show!LF believes, evidently, that for some reason he must placate Cersei if he invades the North. But why? Cersei's political situation is terrible. Cersei probably wouldn't have the ability to counter LF's play for the North, particularly when you consider how Cersei has pissed off her allies in Highgarden. And also the boys and gals down at Highgarden might not be too keen on marching their military forces North when they have a potentially hostile Dorne on their doorstep.

If LF needed to politically isolate anybody, the best candidate would have been Cersei. LF shouldn't have worried about Cersei's reaction for his intended invasion of the North. If he worried about anyone's reaction to his plans, he should have concerned himself with reaction of Highgarden, which is keeping Cersei's regime on life support as Olenna reminded her. He should have attempted to negotiate with Highgarden, rather than worrying about Cersei.

The bottom line is that Sansa's endorsement of LF's plans was much more important than Cersei's opinions.

[RJDLM]

There is a big misuse of the word empowerment on all sides. Surely empowerment means to gain power. We shouldn't be talking about women being empowered, we should be talking about women becoming powerful. If you think of it on those terms then the only really empowered women at this point in the story are Cersei, Marg, Dany and Mel.

The traditional meaning of empowerment is also not necessarily a great thing as it often means that someone is allowing you to have power rather than you having it in your own right. LF might of empowered Sansa but that is not the same a having real power.

agreed, but sadly D&D and Cogman and Sophie Turner all used the term, frankly "change" "development" and "character growth" would be better

[Ranger Kragin]

How many remember the ending of Episode 1 in Season 1?

I refer to the wedding night of Khal Drogo and Danaeries. That was rape, no matter how much Danaeries was complying. Same here. Sansa is complying because she must, but it's not her choice. She doesn't rebel, scream and tries to defend herself. She simply complies, as it was expected from a highborn woman.

Today we call it rape. In the Meddle Age it may have been the standars of the marriage among nobles, bonds for titles and privileges.

In a show it is difficult to bring about the subtlety of a marriage of interest, where no love or passion of ANY KIND is involved. Danaeries and Drogo got along fine after a quite shoking start.

Granted, Drogo was not a psychopath but not a sensitive gentlemen either. At least in the show.

Sansa may have understood what is ahead of her after this marriage. Just as Danaeries did.

Danaeries did not come out broken, quite the contrary.

[Kobayashi Maru]

I must say I in the "they've messed this up so bad " camp.

First of all there is absolutely no logical reason for her to be there. Like someone said it can't be repeated too many times. Someone said you have o play the best card you have as an excuse,well playing the best card can be sometimes putting it out there and sometimes waiting till the very end to play it. Right now LF knows there is going to be a battle for WF and he puts her there anyway...she could easily become colatral damage even if both Stannis and The Boltons want her safe with them. So he put his best card in danger just for what? To infiltrate The Boltons. Let's say it's her role the way LF planned it. So why not wait for Stann the man and Bolts to first weaken each other in the battle and then deal with whoever comes out as a victor....just my two cents. That would make much more sense. If you say Stannis might not be inclined to work with LF,well he would for sure be inclined to deal with Sansa and Sansa from the vale would follow LF. Post marriage Sansa less so. It's not like she needs to be in WF for North to support her,they will support her as soon as she shows up. Why put her in danger to get what you will get anyway plus if you wait you wil have one of your enemies weekend considerably.

Someone said it's not interesting to watch Sansa in the Vale,well I say it's personal preference. Not all parts of AFFC and GoT the show are equally interesting to everyone. To me Vale was much much more interesting than anything that happened in Mereen. If you say but Dany has dragons...well they are as useful as two nipples on the breastplate at this moment (the two she actually still has) and the tird one would be as interesting and useful as missing third nipple on the breastplate. Yes she has dragons...she probably has shoes that are more used than those dragons. And again it's all about different tastes and preferences but even if she had full blown Dance With Dragons 2.0 right in the middle of Mereen I wouldn't give a shit because it's in f-ing Mereen half a world away and if the whole city with it's harpies just sinks into the sea I would probably cheer since it would mean ending to painfully boring nothing.

Sansa always afraid she would be discovered,walking a thin line between trusting and not trusting LF,slowly discovering his plan,being promised to HtH,I don't know but it is interesting to me. And considering the divide in opinions it would be interesting to many other people. So to say tthe changed it because it wouldn't be interesting to other people is not necessarily true.

[RJDLM]

Not even LF can pull prime grade AAA political legitimacy out of his butt. Sansa Stark, heir to the North, would have provided an enormous amount of legitimacy to LF's intended incursion into the North. Without the legitimacy that she provides, conquering and holding the North becomes much more difficult as show!Boltons would attest to. Show!LF needs Sansa's endorsement. If she were to die or change her opinion about him, his plans for the North would be seriously degraded.

The reason I said that show!LF knew little about the Boltons is because Cogman said that show!LF did not know about what a nut job Ramsay was. But, Cogman also said that show!LF knew the Boltons could not be fully trusted. The fact that show!LF knew the Bolton's could not be fully trusted makes his entrusting Sansa to them even worse. You don't expose an asset like that unless you really have to. And, in my opinion, show!LF didn't have to.

Evidently, show!LF tried to use Sansa as a way to politically isolate the Boltons from Cersei Lannister. Show!LF believes, evidently, that for some reason he must placate Cersei if he invades the North. But why? Cersei's political situation is terrible. Cersei probably wouldn't have the ability to counter LF's play for the North, particularly when you consider how Cersei has pissed off her allies in Highgarden. And also the boys and gals down at Highgarden might not be too keen on marching their military forces North when they have a potentially hostile Dorne on their doorstep.

If LF needed to politically isolate anybody, the best candidate would have been Cersei. LF shouldn't have worried about Cersei's reaction for his intended invasion of the North. If he worried about anyone's reaction to his plans, he should have concerned himself with reaction of Highgarden, which is keeping Cersei's regime on life support as Olenna reminded her. He should have attempted to negotiate with Highgarden, rather than worrying about Cersei.

The bottom line is that Sansa's endorsement of LF's plans was much more important than Cersei's opinions.

^^^^^Agreed

But also how on earth does show!LF not know about the Boltons, Book!LF had the best spy network in Westeros after Varys, Show!LF doesn't even know the Bolton's defining characteristic, the Bolton's are known as the sadists of the North

[jbob]

I think D&D made a rod for their own back by talking about empowerment in the first place. It's such a 21st century term and it's a pretty ropey one at that. It was only created to make politicians' lives easier in the face of pressure groups. Promise a bit of 'empowerment' and they'll be happy, sort of thing. I just see the girl as growing up during a period of alternate history in a world created by an author who clearly wants to show where women stand sexually. Anybody who cannot accept how he has painted things will never be able to move on. I think Sansa is going to come out of things just fine. It's just that she has been given a particularly rocky road to travel.

Yeah, I can see that. I would agree. The only defence I can make is that maybe they were talking about Sansa at that particular period? Or maybe the promised empowerment is coming later?

it doesn't has to be empowerment, just growth/change, it doesn't has to be positive, just change, she is back where she was in series 2 as an abused victim held captive by a psychotic character, that isn't change it is repetitive

I agree the show and the books use trauma to drive the show onward, eg Bran losing his legs, Jon losing Ygritte, Jaime losing his sword, Tyrion killing Shae, Jorah being exiled again, Brienne losing Renly, Stannis becoming increasingly messed up, Davos losing his children, but when it comes to the women it seems rape, sex or sexual violence is the go to strategy, the one time the avoided this route well is Cat losing Rob, (and that was GRRM, not D&D) and they failed to follow that up with the UnCat storyline,, it is not that Sansa got messed up that I have a problem with, there were better ways to do LF killing SweetRobin perhaps? Regardless ofwhether or not it was sexist it was lazy and repetitive, and for what? We know Ramsay is evil and Theon is messed up and Sansa is an abuse victim, how much did the arc add that we didn't know?

I would agree with parts being repetitive. But, in my opinion, lots of characters have had repetitive storylines. I'd say Dany's storyline can be a little repetitive. Arya's story could get a little repetitive: she runs away, meets a new group, runs away, meets a new group ect. But, not every character has a straight line. Some characters do start off below, end up on top, then back below again. If you get my meaning. And we still don't know what GRRM even plans for her. In the end, sexual violence against women is the number one thing people do. That's kind of realistic though. It's like Brienne in the books constantly being threatened with rape.

And it's kind of hard to say for what because the season hasn't ended. We don't know where they're going with this. I mean, if she gets killed by the end of the season then, I'd say they wasted her story line.

[jet199]

agreed, but sadly D&D and Cogman and Sophie Turner all used the term, frankly "change" "development" and "character growth" would be better

But maybe D&D do meant empowered exactly as it is meant in the traditional sense. Sansa was empowered by LF but that just meant she had power while she was with him but it disappears as soon as she doesn't have him to back her up. The confusion is, I think, that many, including Turner, mistook that for real power. Sansa never got real power in her own right.

[Darryk]

A character cannot go from victim to player in the space of a few episodes. Especially someone in Sansa's position.

The Game of Thrones is about making you think you have a foothold, then the ground gets swept out from under you. The characters and the audience are constantly reminded of this.

Sansa was finding her feet, but then the reality of her situation kicked in. However, I do think this will be a pivotal moment in the character's growth.