Stannis is the man....nis Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 I'm sorry but can we seriously think about this? A pure North uprising against the Boltons?! If they had the ability to do that why didn't they just do that before like when Roose moved his army south to take Moat Cailin?! Why not 3rd army the fight between Stannis and Roose and take both them out?! Their is no way D&D can make this not come off as a huge plot hole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 1 hour ago, Stannis is the man....nis said: I'm sorry but can we seriously think about this? A pure North uprising against the Boltons?! If they had the ability to do that why didn't they just do that before like when Roose moved his army south to take Moat Cailin?! Why not 3rd army the fight between Stannis and Roose and take both them out?! Their is no way D&D can make this not come off as a huge plot hole You are right, Also, no mention of highborn hostages being held by the Freys (from the Red Wedding) which was the very reason why in the books that the Boltons had not been ganged up upon and deposed by Stark Loyalist Northern Houses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 2 hours ago, Stannis is the man....nis said: ! Their is no way D&D can make this not come off as a huge plot hole I'm sure it will be fine. No matter what happens you guys will see it as a plot hole, due to having over active imaginations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis is the man....nis Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 49 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said: I'm sure it will be fine. No matter what happens you guys will see it as a plot hole, due to having over active imaginations. Please then explain how a pure Northern uprising now makes sense if it's us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 `Well hard to comment on something that hasn't actually happened yet. But a northern uprising that gets behind a Stark would be more likely than one without. Plus there could be any number of reasons why it wouldn't have happened before. But, as none of the Northern Lords thought processes were actually shown on the show, you are only speculating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis is the man....nis Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 6 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said: `Well hard to comment on something that hasn't actually happened yet. But a northern uprising that gets behind a Stark would be more likely than one without. Plus there could be any number of reasons why it wouldn't have happened before. But, as none of the Northern Lords thought processes were actually shown on the show, you are only speculating. No it's using logic. Seasons 4-6 spans around to a little over a year with Season 5-6 only 4-5 months. So if in season 6 their is a Northern uprising that means they would of been able to pull it off back during season 5 so why they sit out? It makes no sense and then why back in 4 did they do nothing when Roose moved his troops South to Moat Cailin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gustavo Fringed Sleeves Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 If it walks like a plothole, smells like a plothole, and fucks like a plothole, then it's definitely a plothole. All it takes to see them is not to be a D&D fanboy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruhail Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Ive lost all excitement for the North after it being so empty last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stag_legion Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 You can definitely expect random northern characters saying meaningless stuff like "THE NORTH REMEMBERS" and "ONLY STARKS" a few dozen times. Cause you know the northerners aren't pissed because they had family members killed at the red wedding, they are only pissed cause starks got killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis is the man....nis Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 13 minutes ago, Stag_legion said: You can definitely expect random northern characters saying meaningless stuff like "THE NORTH REMEMBERS" and "ONLY STARKS" a few dozen times. Cause you know the northerners aren't pissed because they had family members killed at the red wedding, they are only pissed cause starks got killed. Yeah the North remembers expect when Sansa was getting raped and Stannis called upon us for help in which cause we apparently have something better to do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Well, to put time into perspective, if Roslyn Frey on the show is pregnant but not yet delivered from her one night Red Wedding to Edmure Tully, than on the show, less than 9 months has passed. Rickon, if he is hiding with a Northern Lord, then he is not lost but hiding with loyalists whom would probably know of other Northern loyalists lords. Why wait?, Why not join Stannis? The Great Northern conspiracy. Like Littlefinger's perspective, let the Boltons and Stannis smash each other, then take out the victor. The only apparent problem is that the Stark Loyal Northern Lords do not seem to have, yet anyway, know that Sansa Stark was married and is officially a Bolton. Then again, in this world, boys take precedence over girls so if they know or knew, Sansa was expendable as Rickon is known and secured. They have just been waiting for him to grow a little and prepare for removing the Boltons when the time was right. Also, they can always make the Frey's have hostages by simply having the Northern Lords that will appear this year make mention of them in dialogue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryk Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 12 hours ago, Stag_legion said: You can definitely expect random northern characters saying meaningless stuff like "THE NORTH REMEMBERS" and "ONLY STARKS" a few dozen times. Cause you know the northerners aren't pissed because they had family members killed at the red wedding, they are only pissed cause starks got killed. Who says they can't be pissed about both? It's pretty clear in the books that there's a strong loyalty to the Starks from many of the Northern houses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Quote No it's using logic. Seasons 4-6 spans around to a little over a year with Season 5-6 only 4-5 months. So if in season 6 their is a Northern uprising that means they would of been able to pull it off back during season 5 so why they sit out? It makes no sense and then why back in 4 did they do nothing when Roose moved his troops South to Moat Cailin? Could be any number of reasons. The point being we are shown nothing of them, there are very few details of everyones situation mentioned in the show so everything is speculation. A few reasons why they might have waited - They simply weren't all that ready, organised, or agreed on what they wanted. - The time wasn't right. As mentioned, they wanted to see what the outcome of Stannis' battle was, rather than over committing to either side. - Not having a Stark to get behind, or if it was Rickon, him being too young or hard to prove it was him. Having Jon and Sansa and Rickon around creates a far better scenario for the Northerners to get behind them and reorganise after the Red Wedding knocked the wind out of their sails. So right now, we don't know the circumstances of how the Northerners rise up, or what they were doing in the past. It doesn't really create plot holes, only in your head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis is the man....nis Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 16 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said: Could be any number of reasons. The point being we are shown nothing of them, there are very few details of everyones situation mentioned in the show so everything is speculation. A few reasons why they might have waited - They simply weren't all that ready, organised, or agreed on what they wanted. - The time wasn't right. As mentioned, they wanted to see what the outcome of Stannis' battle was, rather than over committing to either side. - Not having a Stark to get behind, or if it was Rickon, him being too young or hard to prove it was him. Having Jon and Sansa and Rickon around creates a far better scenario for the Northerners to get behind them and reorganise after the Red Wedding knocked the wind out of their sails. So right now, we don't know the circumstances of how the Northerners rise up, or what they were doing in the past. It doesn't really create plot holes, only in your head. -You clearly missed the point as both me and ghost were making, not enough time has passed between 5-6 to pull the "not organized" card if they are ready to go this year they were ready to go last year -So just sit it out? How many shots are they going to get at Roose? Here's a hint not many; he lives inside a big castle and is supported by the crown, so when the "best military commander in Westeros" asks for help it is stupid to everyone to pass up -As far as both the Northerns in the book and show know the Starks are gone, Sansa and Arya have vanished, Bran and Rickon are "dead", and Jon is a bastard of the Nights Watch so wanting for s Stark when as far as they know they are gone is stupid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myself656 Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 18 minutes ago, Stannis is the man....nis said: -You clearly missed the point as both me and ghost were making, not enough time has passed between 5-6 to pull the "not organized" card if they are ready to go this year they were ready to go last year -So just sit it out? How many shots are they going to get at Roose? Here's a hint not many; he lives inside a big castle and is supported by the crown, so when the "best military commander in Westeros" asks for help it is stupid to everyone to pass up -As far as both the Northerns in the book and show know the Starks are gone, Sansa and Arya have vanished, Bran and Rickon are "dead", and Jon is a bastard of the Nights Watch so wanting for s Stark when as far as they know they are gone is stupid We didn't miss the point. We just disagree with your assertions. There's a difference. People are fully capable of looking at the same information and reaching different conclusions without one side or the other being too stupid to understand the point of the other. In terms of readiness... if it takes one month to rally the men, then three weeks will be too soon to strike, but five weeks will be ready to go. Saying "not enough time" has passed presumes you know the specifics of the organizational structures of the Northern houses and how long it will take to them to organize. Answer: Longer than from the end of Season Three to Season Five, but shorter than Season Six is perfectly valid and not a plot hole. Why sit it out? See above... their forces weren't organized yet, but Stannis, not being familiar with fighting in winter was unwilling to wait for them. For all the claims of Stannis being the "best military commander" his recent loss at Blackwater and rumors that he only defeated Renley using sorcerery would certainly count against that assertion. Plus, let's not forget that signing on to help Stannis comes with the condition of "bend the knee to Stannis" and "accept the Red Faith." Given that he's known to burn those who don't convert at the stake whose to say he'd be any better than the Boltons? Better to let them kill each other and then take on the weakened victor once their forces are ready to move. Thus, them choosing to not back Stannis is not a plot hole. As to the Starks, Rickon would have reached the Umbers shortly after the Red Wedding... that's all the Stark they need to rally behind (though they'd need time to rally), Sansa (complete with the tales of the horrors she endured at the Boltons' hands; for that matter part of the delay may have been based around the prospect that Sansa was a Bolton hostage) and Jon (with his military training) would be an added bonus. So, not a plot hole. So we get your points, we just don't agree with your interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis is the man....nis Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 2 minutes ago, Myself656 said: We didn't miss the point. We just disagree with your assertions. There's a difference. People are fully capable of looking at the same information and reaching different conclusions without one side or the other being too stupid to understand the point of the other. In terms of readiness... if it takes one month to rally the men, then three weeks will be too soon to strike, but five weeks will be ready to go. Saying "not enough time" has passed presumes you know the specifics of the organizational structures of the Northern houses and how long it will take to them to organize. Answer: Longer than from the end of Season Three to Season Five, but shorter than Season Six is perfectly valid and not a plot hole. Why sit it out? See above... their forces weren't organized yet, but Stannis, not being familiar with fighting in winter was unwilling to wait for them. For all the claims of Stannis being the "best military commander" his recent loss at Blackwater and rumors that he only defeated Renley using sorcerery would certainly count against that assertion. Plus, let's not forget that signing on to help Stannis comes with the condition of "bend the knee to Stannis" and "accept the Red Faith." Given that he's known to burn those who don't convert at the stake whose to say he'd be any better than the Boltons? Better to let them kill each other and then take on the weakened victor once their forces are ready to move. Thus, them choosing to not back Stannis is not a plot hole. As to the Starks, Rickon would have reached the Umbers shortly after the Red Wedding... that's all the Stark they need to rally behind (though they'd need time to rally), Sansa (complete with the tales of the horrors she endured at the Boltons' hands; for that matter part of the delay may have been based around the prospect that Sansa was a Bolton hostage) and Jon (with his military training) would be an added bonus. So, not a plot hole. So we get your points, we just don't agree with your interpretation. Right there you pointed out the problem again if Rickon reach the Umbers at the end of season 3 then that means by season 4 they had enough time to call everyone in the North, and then a month to rally and 5 to wait to attack Roose who had again moved his army South. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 5 minutes ago, Stannis is the man....nis said: Right there you pointed out the problem again if Rickon reach the Umbers at the end of season 3 then that means by season 4 they had enough time to call everyone in the North, and then a month to rally and 5 to wait to attack Roose who had again moved his army South. Nice work on ignoring the rest of his post where he makes perfectly valid arguments, which I agree with. Which also tend to answer this point. The other point is, we just don't know what 'organising' is going to involve, who they have to convince, how easy that will be, what resources they have at their disposal. Basically so many unknowns that you aren't in a position to call it a plot hole or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis is the man....nis Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 24 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said: Nice work on ignoring the rest of his post where he makes perfectly valid arguments, which I agree with. Which also tend to answer this point. The other point is, we just don't know what 'organising' is going to involve, who they have to convince, how easy that will be, what resources they have at their disposal. Basically so many unknowns that you aren't in a position to call it a plot hole or not. I didn't I answered 2 of his responses in one with the Starks and time because 3-5 is enough time after Rickon arrived to organize a rebellion. Plus the fact they are unknown is part of the problem they are the reason Sansa was raped. The whole reason for the Sansa wedding is because the threat of a alliance with Stannis/rebellion scares Roose so much to the point he risks the IT rath and has Sansa married to his son so the fact they are such a threat to Roose that it set this plot up but they then play no role is stupid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stag_legion Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 9 hours ago, Darryk said: Who says they can't be pissed about both? It's pretty clear in the books that there's a strong loyalty to the Starks from many of the Northern houses. That's true, but the show makes it look like northerners are only upset because starks got betrayed and totally ignores the fact that a lot of northern houses lost family members in the wedding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myself656 Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 5 hours ago, Stannis is the man....nis said: Right there you pointed out the problem again if Rickon reach the Umbers at the end of season 3 then that means by season 4 they had enough time to call everyone in the North, and then a month to rally and 5 to wait to attack Roose who had again moved his army South. Claiming facts not in evidence doesn't make them facts. We have no idea how long it would take to rally the North after having most of its leadership taken out at the Red Wedding. How many second sons or young lords had to get a handle on their own holdings before they could begin to organize militarily? How long would it take to organize the reserves that weren't sent on campaign with Robb and died or would they need to train and equip replacements (something that takes time)? We don't know. From what we know of the spoilers; longer than the gap from the end of season three to the end of season five, but shorter than to the end of season six (when the Battle of the Bastards is supposed to occur). Given that we don't even know how many months that is supposed to be in the story its impossible to call that a plot hole. Again, you're looking at things through one prism and I'm looking at them through another. I get your point... I just don't agree with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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