Heresy 182

[Matthew.]

In truth, I'm having trouble thinking of anything too major that could happen with Barristan, unless something were to prompt him to turn against Dany--misgivings about the course she's taking, plus the knowledge of "Aegon VI," perhaps.

With almost every character from GRRM's own "alive in the books but dead in the show" post, I'm seeing a potential problem. As mentioned, Mance has plenty of interesting twist/plot impact potential, but it almost seems like GRRM already had a plan for him in ADWD, though it wouldn't be the first time GRRM has altered a character path. Barristan's story is less set in stone, but also seems to be a lot more limited in its twist potential.

I suppose some of this might come down to how GRRM himself defines a "plot character," and whether or not this is actually a big twist. I believe he specifically said it's a good twist, but that doesn't necessarily mean major, and it may even be the case that, with the story already so bogged down, he wouldn't actually want to do a twist that would alter the plot too much, so it might be more of a surprising character moment, like when we discovered that Tywin had secretly been sleeping with prostitutes (well, at least one prostitute).

[Black Crow]

I think too much may be read into this "twist"; Mance for the reasons you suggest, and for Barristan I can really see only one major thing affecting the plot. He might, for example, persuade Danaerys the Dragonlord to give up on the mystic east and head for Westeros, home and beauty. Trouble is that one's already foretold in the original synopsis. Alternatively he might persuade her to give up on her mad Targaryen entitlement thing and stay where she is, but once again we've already seen that, which isn't to say that Barristan might not provide the motivation to head west, but that's not the same as a "twist".

On balance therefore I'm inclined to look at it being something character-related rather than plot related.

 

[Black Crow]

I would, however offer a suitably heretical wild card.

So far as the book is concerned, Jon Snow's condition is ambiguous and we've spent the last couple of  four and a half [!] years arguing over it and fortifying ourselves with that enigmatic "you think he's dead do you?"

Yet in the mummers' version he seems pretty dead...

Might GRRM in his usual style be alluding to a plot twist concerning Jon?

[Regular John Umber]

 Did he not allude to the twist before the S5 finale? Only 1 or 2 episodes into season 5, I think, was the first time he mentioned it:

 

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/04/03/george-rr-martin-winds-date

 

 

[Lord Ravenstark]

I would, however offer a suitably heretical wild card.

So far as the book is concerned, Jon Snow's condition is ambiguous and we've spent the last couple of  four and a half [!] years arguing over it and fortifying ourselves with that enigmatic "you think he's dead do you?"

Yet in the mummers' version he seems pretty dead...

Might GRRM in his usual style be alluding to a plot twist concerning Jon?

I am pretty sure by all promotional content, stills from the setting Jon Snow being resurrected or still alive is all but pressed on our faces.

In any case, I am feeling inclined to finally start to watch the show. This time seriously. I wonder all the Jon Snow obsession must come from the show. Can anyone tell me if he is actually an interesting character there or just insufferable melancholic?

[Black Crow]

Dunno, but to me the Jon Snow of the book is very different from the one in the mummers' version. Not how I imagine him at all.

[Black Crow]

6 hours ago, Regular John Umber said:

 Did he not allude to the twist before the S5 finale? Only 1 or 2 episodes into season 5, I think, was the first time he mentioned it:

 

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/04/03/george-rr-martin-winds-date

I certainly have a recollection of this coming up some time ago so why it should be exciting people all over again now I don't know. It doesn't actually alter things much though. I can't recall anybody of any significance other than that Dothraki guy popping his clogs prematurely, which I think GRRM has commented upon before, so I think that it does relate to the last series and even though it was early from our point of view I'd imagine that GRRM himself knew then what was to come.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Lord Ravenstark said:

I am pretty sure by all promotional content, stills from the setting Jon Snow being resurrected or still alive is all but pressed on our faces.

Perfectly true but that doesn't rule out the when, how and wherefores being very different

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, Lord Ravenstark said:

In any case, I am feeling inclined to finally start to watch the show. This time seriously. I wonder all the Jon Snow obsession must come from the show. Can anyone tell me if he is actually an interesting character there or just insufferable melancholic?

As someone who didn't particularly enjoy Jon's POV chapters, other than the ones in ADWD, I think show Jon Snow is even less compelling. At least in the books, we have some internal insight into what's happening in his head, whereas the show largely presents him as a generic fantasy hero. Part of this comes down to the way Jon has been written, and part of it is just a shortcoming of the medium; as you can imagine, characters like Tyrion fare much better in being translated to the screen.

[Black Crow]

Indeed, most of the complexities have been lost. While the "real" Jon Snow is far from a parfait knight, he is also a much more convincing and ultimately more interesting character. Leaving aside criticisms of his portrayal in the mummers' version which really don't belong on this side of the forum, I think one of the bigger problems is the absence of the magic and the true nature of the symbiotic relationship with Ghost which does so much to shape Jon's character development and which will be so important in taking him forward in the book. 

[Melifeather]

Jon is my favorite book character with Dany running a close second, and I expect they will be among a small group that makes it to the end of the series. 

The article linked about the twist says "revealing" twist, so I think this means GRRM has thought of a way to reveal some detail that was already in place and is using one of the characters that is dead on the show to do it. 

[Matthew.]

If GRRM wanted to go the route of a "revealing" twist, then he could use Barristan if he wanted to reveal surprising details about Harrenhal, the Year of the False Spring, or Robert's Rebellion. I suppose I'd like to believe that all of the details around that period are more set in stone, and less subject to GRRM's whimsy, but almost everything he says and does leads me to believe that absolutely nothing is "set" until the second that GRRM submits it in a final manuscript.

[Black Crow]

I think that the basic background probably is set in stone because no matter how the story develops it needs that sure foundation.

If just for the sake of argument we say that R+L has equalled J from the very outset then he isn't going to change that, but there are all sorts of ways in which he can twist it, both as to the manner of its being revealed and by who to whom and what the consequences will be.

 

 

 

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, Matthew. said:

If GRRM wanted to go the route of a "revealing" twist, then he could use Barristan if he wanted to reveal surprising details about Harrenhal, the Year of the False Spring, or Robert's Rebellion. I suppose I'd like to believe that all of the details around that period are more set in stone, and less subject to GRRM's whimsy, but almost everything he says and does leads me to believe that absolutely nothing is "set" until the second that GRRM submits it in a final manuscript.

And here we have a bit of clarification from this very site:

The two key points that George added: 1) Yes, where last year it was an idea he had had, now he’s going ahead with it; 2) It involves a character who lives in the books but is dead in the show, explaining what he meant by the show’s choices precluding it.

Speculation is once again running rampant, especially as this last season added some notable characters to the list of the dead who remain alive in the novels and who could be considered “long-time” characters: Myrcella Baratheon, Stannis Baratheon, Selyse Baratheon, Shireen Baratheon, Barristan Selmy, and Mance Rayder. Of course, other characters are possible, given that the show has killed off a few in earlier seasons that continue now, but it feels quite likely that George’s plans has to do with one of the above characters.

As to that list of possibles I'd just add the caveat that whilst Stannis looked as though he was just about to be finished off in the mummers' version, we haven't actually seen his body slumped in one corner and his head rolled into another.

[Neds Secret]

To @Black Crow, how come you have heresy hidden over on this part of the forum? I have been a member for over a year and lurked for a little while before that and I was never lucky enough to stumble onto heresy until a few days ago. I remember reading sometimes about " have a look at heresy threads" vaguely thininglike they must just appear on  AsoiaF General page and just never really saw them. Anyway, this thread seems to pose more of the sorts of questions I seem to think about and I  just wish it had been easier to discover.

PS. I sure hope Stannis is alive on mummers version also. Season 5 was a huge disappointment to me but I was exposed to AsoiaF through the show and still have an attachment to it

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, Neds Secret said:

To @Black Crow, how come you have heresy hidden over on this part of the forum? I have been a member for over a year and lurked for a little while before that and I was never lucky enough to stumble onto heresy until a few days ago. I remember reading sometimes about " have a look at heresy threads" vaguely thininglike they must just appear on  AsoiaF General page and just never really saw them. Anyway, this thread seems to pose more of the sorts of questions I seem to think about and I  just wish it had been easier to discover.

PS. I sure hope Stannis is alive on mummers version also. Season 5 was a huge disappointment to me but I was exposed to AsoiaF through the show and still have an attachment to it

Ah, we've been here ever since the thread began way back in late 2011. It seemed the right place at the time and it also has the priceless advantage of stability - post a thread on the general page and if you leave it alone for 10 minutes its in free-fall - which gives us the chance to discuss things in depth.

I'm glad you made it in the end, and yes if you want to discuss the Others in particular this is the place.

 

[Clegane'sPup]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Ah, we've been here ever since the thread began way back in late 2011. It seemed the right place at the time and it also has the priceless advantage of stability - post a thread on the general page and if you leave it alone for 10 minutes its in free-fall - which gives us the chance to discuss things in depth.

I'm glad you made it in the end, and yes if you want to discuss the Others in particular this is the place.

 

You have really, really, really sparked my curiosity when you shared the idea about Sam stabbing Ser Puddles with the dragonglass dagger and that it broke a spell that was holding him together.

My thought was rather simplistic but I was leaning toward the idea that the Other’s were ice creatures, kinda shiny like the Silver Surfer, and that the dragonglass dagger, also named frozen fire, caused the Other to melt.

When you speak of spells, does it have something to do with what Bran saw when he looked into the heart of winter?  

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

You have really, really, really sparked my curiosity when you shared the idea about Sam stabbing Ser Puddles with the dragonglass dagger and that it broke a spell that was holding him together.

My thought was rather simplistic but I was leaning toward the idea that the Other’s were ice creatures, kinda shiny like the Silver Surfer, and that the dragonglass dagger, also named frozen fire, caused the Other to melt.

When you speak of spells, does it have something to do with what Bran saw when he looked into the heart of winter?  

It wasn't an idea, but rather quoting GRRM. This time last year in the run up to Season 5, HBO ran one of those catch-up features; you know the sort of thing with compilations of clips from the first four series and a commentary explaining who was who and why. Interspersed with this were some pieces to camera by various people of interest including GRRM himself, and it was in one of those that he explained about the dragonglass breaking the spell.

This is consistent with what he's said before in the email to the comic book artist Tommy Patterson  'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.” and when taken with what Caster's wives say per my signature it allows us to construct the basic narrative that Craster gives up his sons who by some magical means are transformed into white walkers - ice made flesh.

And that as I say then leads us on to the supplementary question that if they are this different form of life; not a race of silver surfers but created from Craster's sons, then somebody has to be doing that creating.

[WhitewolfStark]

On 2/23/2016 at 0:30 PM, e1kabong said:

All this talk about Bran's condition and possibly being outside the cave: I have to point out that the inciting mummer's images also show Bran standing with Bloodraven outside. Now, unless BRs condition is far less permanent than we are led to believe (I mean, he has tree roots growing THROUGH him), it seems to be a nail in the coffin for the escape theory. I think what we'll get is Bloodraven guiding Bran through using the sight. I highly doubt that he's interacting with the other players directly. I get more of a "Ghost of Christmas Past" vibe with it. 

As for the need for winter gear: I would posit that this could be some sort of mental projection of the self. When you picture yourself standing outside in winter, you commonly have winter gear on, no? Of course, the clothes aren't needed if its all a vision, but it helps ground your self-image in reality.

I agree that Bran and BR can and do astrally project themselves, which is how I interpret that one image. I was only pointing out the differences between that astral projection and the other picture. After all if Bran can astral project himself so he can be whole or walk again and is standing around without any furs or such--why the heck would he need the furs in the other picture unless he was really there?

My line of reasoning: In a dream or a memory--there is no heat or cold so there wouldn't be any need for clothes to counter either.

[Lord Wraith]

On 2/26/2016 at 0:07 PM, Black Crow said:

Dunno, but to me the Jon Snow of the book is very different from the one in the mummers' version. Not how I imagine him at all.

This is so true it hurts and its not just Jon. Like his whole bro moment with Sam after he banged Gilly. I can see him understanding but he really shouldn't be supportive of it. Breaking his vows is something Jon had to do to survive the Wildlings, really not the same as Sam wanting to be with Gilly. Which he can't as a Maester or a sworn brother of the Night's Watch,