So... what if more of Ned Stark's companions had survived?

[Floki of the Ironborn]

Given the huge controversy and apparent importance of this promise which Lyanna begged Eddard to make, what would have happened if more than just Howland Reed had survived the battle with the three KG?

We know that the other five men were Ethan Glover, Mark Ryswell, Theo Wull, Martyn Cassel, and Willam Dustin. It's safe to say that Ned would only have taken men that he absolutely trusted, but that still means he has to deal with potentially five witnesses besides Reed. And while Reed seems to have been incredibly loyal to House Stark and just wanted to stay in the Neck anyway, the other five may not have been so easy to deal with.

Wull is a mountain tribesman, and they were all completely devoted to the memory of "The Ned" even after the Starks were all but gone, so it's safe to say he could probably be trusted to go back to the mountains and tell nobody (important) of what happened at the ToJ. But the others? A Glover, a Cassel, a Ryswell, and the head of House Dustin? All of them have ties to important houses in the North, and any one of them could have done a lot of damage had they opened their mouths to even a few people. Barbrey Dustin still hasn't forgiven Ned Stark for not bringing her husband's bones back north (allegedly anyway). Imagine if she knew something about Lyanna and Rhaegar which would bring a fresh war over the Seven Kingdoms? Or any of the others if they ever felt slighted or treated poorly by Eddard?

[DarkSister1001]

I don't think Ned's bannermen ever really felt slighted by him.  Except for Lady Barb who seems to only be pissed bc Brandon and her Lord husband died.  The Boltons have a history of fighting WF but I don't think Roose would have done that to Ned openly, and they weren't there at the TOJ.  I feel fairly confident that they would have kept his secret.  If you believe in the GNC then most of them know Jon is Robbs heir and their lips are still sealed. 

[James Steller]

19 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

I don't think Ned's bannermen ever really felt slighted by him.  Except for Lady Barb who seems to only be pissed bc Brandon and her Lord husband died.  The Boltons have a history of fighting WF but I don't think Roose would have done that to Ned openly, and they weren't there at the TOJ.  I feel fairly confident that they would have kept his secret.  If you believe in the GNC then most of them know Jon is Robbs heir and their lips are still sealed. 

Thing is, though, if the secret is that Lyanna eloped with Rhaegar, then that would surely piss off people whose relatives died on the basis that Rhaegar was a kidnapper and rapist. That Lyanna willingly ran off with a married man, and a southron princeling at that, would surely be viewed as a highly scandalous thing to do. So if, say Willam Dustin died but the Ryswell still lived, and knew the secret which had led to Brandon Stark's death, surely he'd end up telling Barbrey what had happened, and then she would have wanted to take revenge for the losses she suffered just because Lyanna, from a Westerosi perspective, couldn't act like a proper lady who knew her place.

All in all, the fewer people who knew about the secret, the better off Ned would be. Regardless of what the secret might be.

[DarkSister1001]

9 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Thing is, though, if the secret is that Lyanna eloped with Rhaegar, then that would surely piss off people whose relatives died on the basis that Rhaegar was a kidnapper and rapist. That Lyanna willingly ran off with a married man, and a southron princeling at that, would surely be viewed as a highly scandalous thing to do. So if, say Willam Dustin died but the Ryswell still lived, and knew the secret which had led to Brandon Stark's death, surely he'd end up telling Barbrey what had happened, and then she would have wanted to take revenge for the losses she suffered just because Lyanna, from a Westerosi perspective, couldn't act like a proper lady who knew her place.

All in all, the fewer people who knew about the secret, the better off Ned would be. Regardless of what the secret might be.

I agree.  I hadn't considered that view.  I guess it would depend on exactly what they knew.  If they knew she was dead and that Jon was her son (by rape) I stand by my original assessment.  But if they new about a marriage and broken betrothal than I can see where your point would make more sense.  C'mon Howland, get your ass out here and tell us what you know!   

[Floki of the Ironborn]

6 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

 If they knew she was dead and that Jon was her son (by rape) I stand by my original assessment.

The thing is, even if they only knew that Jon was her son, that would put Jon in mortal danger as long as Robert and the Lannisters were alive. Robert would want to kill anyone with Targaryen blood, ESPECIALLY if it was a child of Lyanna's that wasn't his own, rape or no rape. The Lannisters, meanwhile, especially Cersei and Tywin, would want Jon killed because of the complications he brings with him by his mere existence. At best, he reminds Cersei that Rhaegar loved a wild Northern girl more than her, and at worst, he could be a potential heir to the Targaryen dynasty if the wrong people start feeding him ideas a la Daemon Blackfyre.

[The Ice Wolf of Loki]

5 hours ago, King Floki of the Ironborn said:

Given the huge controversy and apparent importance of this promise which Lyanna begged Eddard to make, what would have happened if more than just Howland Reed had survived the battle with the three KG?

 

What makes you think they didn't? The only bodies we know for certain are Ned, Howland and Lyanna's.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

20 minutes ago, The Ice Wolf of Loki said:

What makes you think they didn't? The only bodies we know for certain are Ned, Howland and Lyanna's.

Pretty sure they all died. It's been mentioned a few times by now. And even if they weren't, where the hell would they be all this time? We're talking about the head of House Dustin, and he had no heirs when he died. Barbrey's just holding the fort all by herself for years and years and you'd suggest he ISN'T dead but is just goofing off somewhere? Why would Willam, or any of the others, do that?

Either that or you're just joking, in which case, pardon my above reaction.

[Seams]

1 hour ago, The Ice Wolf of Loki said:

What makes you think they didn't? The only bodies we know for certain are Ned, Howland and Lyanna's.

 

44 minutes ago, King Floki of the Ironborn said:

Pretty sure they all died. It's been mentioned a few times by now. And even if they weren't, where the hell would they be all this time? We're talking about the head of House Dustin, and he had no heirs when he died. Barbrey's just holding the fort all by herself for years and years and you'd suggest he ISN'T dead but is just goofing off somewhere? Why would Willam, or any of the others, do that?

Either that or you're just joking, in which case, pardon my above reaction.

I think there is a legitimate question about whether they all died. In fact, I'm really glad you started a thread about this because the recent thread about Ser Mandon Moore (who is always described as appearing to be dead) got me thinking about whether others survived or were reanimated in the manner of Thoros of Myr (or glamoured) and then plugged into low-profile but key positions where their loyal service continued to be useful.

We know that Ned takes great care to return the bones of the direwolf, Lady, to Winterfell. And he returns the sword Dawn to the Dayne family. Even if he had his hands full in the immediate aftermath of the Tower of Joy, why wouldn't he eventually arrange for the silent sisters to transport the bones of his banner men back to the North? Or go back himself to retrieve their remains at some point in the ensuing years? His lesson for his sons about the Lord who orders the execution carrying out the order seems like another sign that he would feel a personal responsibility to ensure the restoration of the bones of north men to the north - he's a hands-on kind of guy and puts great stock in the responsibilities of being Warden of the North.

One explanation would be that there are no bones to retrieve. They are still in active use. Or, at least, some of the sets of bones are missing so it's better to represent that they all died and make it appear that there are five bodies buried there.

Maybe Ned had good reason for binding these men to secret missions. Maybe they willingly agreed to go undercover, once they understood the prophecy that Rhaegar had uncovered. (I put a lot of stock in this prophecy whenever I can't fully explain something, but there could be another motive.)

One the other hand, I completely see all the arguments about how it helped Ned that there were few witnesses to spill the secrets of the Tower of Joy. I think there are secrets beyond Jon Snow's parentage involved in the "Promise me, Ned" coverup. I'm starting to think there are some hidden things in Ned's past that are going to make us question his sterling reputation. The true status of these northern "bones" is one of the things that makes me suspicious.

[Dorian Martell]

On 4/2/2016 at 3:17 PM, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Given the huge controversy and apparent importance of this promise which Lyanna begged Eddard to make, what would have happened if more than just Howland Reed had survived the battle with the three KG?

We know that the other five men were Ethan Glover, Mark Ryswell, Theo Wull, Martyn Cassel, and Willam Dustin. It's safe to say that Ned would only have taken men that he absolutely trusted, but that still means he has to deal with potentially five witnesses besides Reed. And while Reed seems to have been incredibly loyal to House Stark and just wanted to stay in the Neck anyway, the other five may not have been so easy to deal with.

Wull is a mountain tribesman, and they were all completely devoted to the memory of "The Ned" even after the Starks were all but gone, so it's safe to say he could probably be trusted to go back to the mountains and tell nobody (important) of what happened at the ToJ. But the others? A Glover, a Cassel, a Ryswell, and the head of House Dustin? All of them have ties to important houses in the North, and any one of them could have done a lot of damage had they opened their mouths to even a few people. Barbrey Dustin still hasn't forgiven Ned Stark for not bringing her husband's bones back north (allegedly anyway). Imagine if she knew something about Lyanna and Rhaegar which would bring a fresh war over the Seven Kingdoms? Or any of the others if they ever felt slighted or treated poorly by Eddard?

All of Ned's companions would have to die soon after the battle so the story could continue as written 

[GallowsKnight]

People seem to think Lyanna would have spilled the beans of eloping to all there. I'm sure Ned would probably spoken with her alone, explained Rhaegar was dead and that the party line was she was the victim of kidnapping and rape.

Then he tells the surviving lords there is a bastard child (even if they did marry). Explains his concerns about the child's safety and swears them to silence. He tells everyone the child is his bastard.

[Castellan]

At least one of them would see things exactly like Tywin and Robert and see Rhaegar's child as a potential threat in the long term if not the short term. No-one would want to look forward to a targ retaking the throne and seeking vengeance, even if it was a generation away. No loose ends would be their viewpoint. Besides which, its exciting information and we can't assume they would all be capable of keeping their mouths shut and not just telling one person.... The plot with Ned saving Jon through keeping him a secret only became viable because the KG killed his companions. 

[Yet Another ASOIAF Fan]

On 4/2/2016 at 6:17 PM, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Given the huge controversy and apparent importance of this promise which Lyanna begged Eddard to make, what would have happened if more than just Howland Reed had survived the battle with the three KG?

We know that the other five men were Ethan Glover, Mark Ryswell, Theo Wull, Martyn Cassel, and Willam Dustin. It's safe to say that Ned would only have taken men that he absolutely trusted, but that still means he has to deal with potentially five witnesses besides Reed. And while Reed seems to have been incredibly loyal to House Stark and just wanted to stay in the Neck anyway, the other five may not have been so easy to deal with.

Wull is a mountain tribesman, and they were all completely devoted to the memory of "The Ned" even after the Starks were all but gone, so it's safe to say he could probably be trusted to go back to the mountains and tell nobody (important) of what happened at the ToJ. But the others? A Glover, a Cassel, a Ryswell, and the head of House Dustin? All of them have ties to important houses in the North, and any one of them could have done a lot of damage had they opened their mouths to even a few people. Barbrey Dustin still hasn't forgiven Ned Stark for not bringing her husband's bones back north (allegedly anyway). Imagine if she knew something about Lyanna and Rhaegar which would bring a fresh war over the Seven Kingdoms? Or any of the others if they ever felt slighted or treated poorly by Eddard?

Given the fact that Ned went to the TOJ with only six other people, I think Ned selected people he thought were trustworthy.  After all, regardless rape or consent, there would be a strong possibility that when the reached the TOJ  Lyanna was pregnant or gave birth to a live child.  As for risk of future events, aka one of the six betraying him, sometimes there are no perfect choices for decent people.  A person like Littlefinger would have killed any of the six that lived, but Ned is too honorable to do that.  As for the theory that Ned did kill one of the six to silence him, that theory is flawed, as Howland Reed is sill alive and able to potentially betray Ned.

[Yet Another ASOIAF Fan]

8 minutes ago, Castellan said:

At least one of them would see things exactly like Tywin and Robert and see Rhaegar's child as a potential threat in the long term if not the short term. No-one would want to look forward to a targ retaking the throne and seeking vengeance, even if it was a generation away. No loose ends would be their viewpoint. Besides which, its exciting information and we can't assume they would all be capable of keeping their mouths shut and not just telling one person.... The plot with Ned saving Jon through keeping him a secret only became viable because the KG killed his companions. 

By raising Jon as a Stark bastard and never telling him his heritage unless he takes the Black, you could argue that Jon 'Targaryen' was killed and replaced with Jon 'Snow'.  If neither Jon or any Targ supporter knew his heritage, who would have started the Targ rebellion?  As you said,even if more of Ned Stark's companions survived, only anti-Targ people would have known his heritage.

[dread wolf]

I think its difficult to say

House Cassell is loyal to the Starks,so are the Glovers and the Wulls.

Mark Ryswell might be a problem as Lord Ryswell tried to marry of Barbey to Brandon Stark but was rejected and it could be seen as a slight from Lord Rysell's point of view. 

Ultimately it comes down to the fact that whether they were totally trusted by ned or not.