Why do men from The Reach and Stormlands hate Dornishmen?

[Valens]

3 minutes ago, redtree said:

Exactly, using only 1 person is a bad example. Oberyn used poison on his enemy who raped and killed his sister and her children, and then who else ? That specific statement is made for the poster i replied to btw

Was it terrible to raid ? Yes, but almost every single region has that occurance as a part of their history.
North=Theon Stark, cooking children and stuff
Westerland=Tywin Lannister
Iron Island=possibly every single of their ruler because raiding is their tradition
Riverland=Hoster Tully
Vale=Rape of Sistermen
Reach=Siege of Tumbleton 1 and 2, Siege of Spicetown
Stormland= no recorded history

 

Yes those honorable and brave men also committed siege of Tumbleton twice (to the point that prince Daeron was so disgusted by the cruelty he ordered them to stop but apparently those honorable men told him to chillax because it was how war is supposed to be), and Siege of Spicetown. Spicetown was noted to be a bigger trading port compared to KL yet the green killed EVERYONE. 

Still think Dorne is cruel ?

You're right this is unpleasant, using reason to hate Dornish because they raid (even though almost everyone have raided) and because they use poison (um, only Oberyn used poison so far) is a clear double standard and a dumb dumb thing to say

You are obviously a DORNISHLOVER, so you are biased. I am not. I like several different kingdoms, but none more than the other. Dorne IS cruel. End of story. Haven't you read about Wyl of Wyl? Only positive thing about them that I can see is that they don't shun their bastards, but it seems thats because they have really many. They are promiscuous people, no doubt. That is surely another reason these Reachmen and Stormlanders hate them.

And by the way: HOSTER TULLY? What does that mean?? What was wrong with him? He was a very good ruler, after all the facts we have. You are clutching at straws, girl.

[redtree]

Just now, Valens said:

You are obviously a DORNISHLOVER, so you are biased. I am not. I like several different kingdoms, but none more than the other. Dorne IS cruel. End of story. Haven't you read about Wyl of Wyl? Only positive thing about them that I can see is that they don't shun their bastards, but it seems thats because they have really many. They are promiscuous people, no doubt. That is surely another reason these Reachmen and Stormlanders hate them.

The different between you and i is i use PROOF to be my argument's reason. You use a sliver of facts and twist it so badly and try to make it a statement and then branded me as dornishlover for using reasons. Nothing to say about what i said regarding Reach's cruel history that's worse then Dorne ? Off course not, it'd be unconstructive to your already weak statement.

Promiscous people, ha. Robert, a stormlander got a sweet title as a whoremonger, Brienne's father changes his paramour every single year. Lord Rowan's daughter invited a singer into her bedchamber, and then there's Alicent Hightower who slept with Daemon and then Viserys. Careful when you want to throw rocks, you're in a glass house

[Valens]

7 minutes ago, redtree said:

The different between you and i is i use PROOF to be my argument's reason. You use a sliver of facts and twist it so badly and try to make it a statement and then branded me as dornishlover for using reasons. Nothing to say about what i said regarding Reach's cruel history that's worse then Dorne ? Off course not, it'd be unconstructive to your already weak statement.

Promiscous people, ha. Robert, a stormlander got a sweet title as a whoremonger, Brienne's father changes his paramour every single year. Lord Rowan's daughter invited a singer into her bedchamber, and then there's Alicent Hightower who slept with Daemon and then Viserys. Careful when you want to throw rocks, you're in a glass house

I edited my post, look at it again! Whats wrong with Hoster Tully? And you know, you can make your point without being a bitch.

[redtree]

15 minutes ago, Valens said:

I edited my post, look at it again! Whats wrong with Hoster Tully? And you know, you can make your point without being a bitch.

Hoster put the entire village of House Goodbrook including innocent women and babies to sword, he also did this thing to another loyalist.

Oh dear, you do realize i just recycled your own snide from your own post. Guess who's being a bitch first ? 

[Lord Asher Forrester]

7 hours ago, Ser Couch Potato said:

Men from the Reach and Dornishmen are natural enemies. Like Englishmen and Scots! Or Welshmen and Scots! Or Japanese and Scots! Or Scots and other Scots!

Boa mano.

[Paxter Redwyne]

 

Quote

Exactly, using only 1 person is a bad example. Oberyn used poison on his enemy who raped and killed his sister and her children, and then who else ? That specific statement is made for the poster i replied to btw

Oberyn also was said to poison lord edgar yronwood andprobably had been poisoning tywin. He teached his daughters how to use poisons too. 

Quote

Was it terrible to raid ? Yes, but almost every single region has that occurance as a part of their history.
North=Theon Stark, cooking children and stuff
Westerland=Tywin Lannister
Iron Island=possibly every single of their ruler because raiding is their tradition
Riverland=Hoster Tully
Vale=Rape of Sistermen
Reach=Siege of Tumbleton 1 and 2, Siege of Spicetown
Stormland= no recorded history

Theon Stark was only defending his country from invaders from both west and east. He did not abused prisoners as far i know.

Rat Cook was stated to be either servant of king tywell ii lannister or oswell i arryn. He wasnt from north. His story also say that he was for his deed accursed for eternity.

Tywin Lannister is really fucked up, but most lannisters before him were actually normal (except Tyrion Tormentor)

Iron Islands have society based on pure brutality, but still they despise poisons.

Hoster Tully was stern only against traitors.

Rape of Three Sisters was commited by northmen, wtf? And still, only sistermen spoke stories about northmen cruelty, no other source prove that they really did so many terrible things.

Siege of Tumbleton was commanded by two betrayers.

Siege of Spicetown was commited by triarchy, not reachmen.

Quote

Yes those honorable and brave men also committed siege of Tumbleton twice (to the point that prince Daeron was so disgusted by the cruelty he ordered them to stop but apparently those honorable men told him to chillax because it was how war is supposed to be), and Siege of Spicetown. Spicetown was noted to be a bigger trading port compared to KL yet the green killed EVERYONE. They also burnt almost every single building including High Tide, the seat of Velaryon. The damage was so devastating that it couldn't be rebuilt

You're right this is unpleasant, using reason to hate Dornish because they raid (even though almost everyone have raided) and because they use poison (um, only Oberyn used poison so far) is a clear double standard and a dumb dumb thing to say

As i wrote above, sack of tumbleton was commanded by two betrayers who took command after lord ormund hightower was killed in battle. And it was Hugh Hammer who told Daeron Daring to fuck off.

Spicetown again, was sacked by triarchy

 

If in books people there is a saying that poison is weapon of dornishmen, cravens and women, there are propably more people in dorne what use poisons.

2 hours ago, redtree said:

Promiscous people, ha. Robert, a stormlander got a sweet title as a whoremonger, Brienne's father changes his paramour every single year. Lord Rowan's daughter invited a singer into her bedchamber, and then there's Alicent Hightower who slept with Daemon and then Viserys. Careful when you want to throw rocks, you're in a glass house

Emmm...  Valens said nothing bad about dornishmen paramour traditions, wtf. 

[redtree]

1 hour ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Let's play

 

Oberyn also was said to poison lord edgar yronwood andprobably had been poisoning tywin. He teached his daughters how to use poisons too. 

No proof on Tywin, just theory so far. And Oberyn is just one person, not Dorne. Why does Dorne get the bad rep for one person yet when i mentioned Olenna people say it's not ok for Reach to get a bad reputation because Olenna is only 1 person ? Double standard 
 

1 hour ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Theon Stark was only defending his country from invaders from both west and east. He did not abused prisoners as far i know.

No, there were 2 different but continous actions. First he defended North and then made a pact with the Red king and went to Andalos to kill the people and did all of his cruelty including killing thousands and burning sept etc. And even if your statement is correct, how is what Theon did any better compared to what Dornish lord did ? Why does he get a pass card but not Dorne ? They were defending their land too
 

1 hour ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Tywin Lannister is really fucked up, but most lannisters before him were actually normal (except Tyrion Tormentor)

And most Dornish are actually good unless they were attacked. Again, what's up about the double standard ?
 

1 hour ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Iron Islands have society based on pure brutality, but still they despise poisons.

So the level of cruelty is based on poison ? Look at Euron, he pretty much let his men raped the entire noblewomen of House Sherry in front of public including a girl of 12 years old after they had to serve them naked. That's not cruelty ? I've never read about any Dornish committed this kind of action. 
 

1 hour ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Hoster Tully was stern only against traitors.

Traitor to who ? They were fighting for their king whom they also sworn obedience and loyalty too. Jon Arryn dIdn't do what Hoster did, hell even Robert whose head was ordered to be on chopping block didn't went as far as Hoster Tully did to his bannermen. There's no point except cruelty in wiping the entire village, a group of smallfolks who were also ordered to obey their lord and couldn't fought that order. Why not just get rid of the house member who actually made the decision to rebel instead of putting helpless innocents who had no capability of influencing their lords decision ? He was cruel too
 

1 hour ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Rape of Three Sisters was commited by northmen, wtf? And still, only sistermen spoke stories about northmen cruelty, no other source prove that they really did so many terrible things.

Oh thank you for reminding me that Northmen did another horrible cruelty that has nothing to do with defending their land. If you don't think what the Arryn did as bad, perhaps what Jonos did to Ronnel can be a supplementary of their list
 

1 hour ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Siege of Tumbleton was commanded by two betrayers.

They were part of it by the main damage and cruelty were done by the greens army
 

"Lord Footly’s men threw down their swords and yielded, only to be bound and beheaded. Such townswomen as survived the fires were raped repeatedly, even girls as young as eight and ten."
"It is said the Dowager Queen Alicent laughed when she heard. “All they
have sowed, now shall they reap,” she promised."
"Seldom has any town or city in the history of the Seven Kingdoms been subject to as long or cruel or savage a sack as Tumbleton after the Treasons. Prince Daeron was sickened by all he saw and commanded Ser Hobert Hightower to put a stop to it"

 

And speaking about your hate of poison used by Oberyn: 

"History has little good to say about Ser Hobert Hightower, but no man can question the manner of his death. Rather than betray his fellow Caltrops, he let the squire fill his cup, drank deep, and asked for more. Once he saw Hightower drink, Ulf the Sot lived up to his name, putting down three cups before he began to yawn. The poison in the wine was a gentle one. When Lord Ulf went to sleep, never to awaken, Ser Hobert lurched to his feet and tried to make himself retch, but too late. His heart stopped within the hour"

Looks like we have another poisoner from the Reach too
 

1 hour ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

As i wrote above, sack of tumbleton was commanded by two betrayers who took command after lord ormund hightower was killed in battle. And it was Hugh Hammer who told Daeron Daring to fuck off.

You confused the order of events, even though Ormund was dead there were another Hightowers who were in charge who could've stopped the atrocities committed by the greens. It wasn't only the two betrayers, read the quotes above. Hobert Hightower (who became the main commander after Ormund's death) Unwin Peake, Roger Corne, Jon Roxton, Owen Fossoway, Marq Ambrose were there too yet they did nothing. Daeron told them to stop but nothing came out of his efforts.
Hugh hammer told Daeron has nothing to do with the cruelty
 

1 hour ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Spicetown again, was sacked by triarchy

"The schemes of Otto Hightower had borne fruit; meeting in Tyrosh, the High Council of the Triarchy had accepted his offer of alliance."
The greens had a hand on it, beside what was done in Tumbleton by Reachmen was close to Spicetown
 

1 hour ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

If in books people there is a saying that poison is weapon of dornishmen, cravens and women, there are propably more people in dorne what use poisons.

"It is said. Women, cravens … and eunuchs"

"Ser Rodrik tugged at his whiskers. “Poison, well … that could be the dwarf’s work,
true enough. Or Cersei’s. It’s said poison is a woman’s weapon, begging your pardons,
my lady."

"A man will tell you poison is dishonorable, but a woman’s honor is different."

You added the dornishmen part yourself even though there's only one dornishmen who used poison while we already have 2 from the Reach and one from the Vale. Probably another person ? Which one ? Using a baseless generalization for an argument is weak and a two-edged sword. With your logic i also can say, Olenna and that Hightower used poison, so probably more people in Reach use poison
 

1 hour ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Emmm...  Valens said nothing bad about dornishmen paramour traditions, wtf. 

No, he said  "They are promiscuous people, no doubt. That is surely another reason these Reachmen and Stormlanders hate them." and i pointed out that people from those 2 regions can be openly promiscuous too to expose the hypocrisy. 

And he said nothing about paramour traditions, he said something about their view on bastard. Looks like you're making up words

[Paxter Redwyne]

2 minutes ago, redtree said:

No, there were 2 different but continous actions. First he defended North and then made a pact with the Red king and went to Andalos to kill the people and did all of his cruelty including killing thousands and burning sept etc. And even if your statement is correct, how is what Theon did any better compared to what Dornish lord did ? Why does he get a pass card but not Dorne ? They were defending their land too

Dornishmen sent assasins on lords, maimed hostages and killed one king under peace banner.

 

4 minutes ago, redtree said:

And most Dornish are actually good unless they were attacked. Again, what's up about the double standard ?

Emmm... not really. Nearly all dornish lords were ok with raiding dornish marches, even during peacetime as for example aliandra martell. They also are quite brutal with squashing rebellions. For example Ullers burned alive their rivals in castle.

 

6 minutes ago, redtree said:

So the level of cruelty is based on poison ? Look at Euron, he pretty much let his men raped the entire noblewomen of House Sherry in front of public including a girl of 12 years old after they had to serve them naked. That's not cruelty ? I've never read about any Dornish committed this kind of action. 

Ironbon are cruel, but in westeros poisoning is more despised than raping as it is still very backward society. And rest of westeros hate ironborn just as much as dornishmen. I wanted only to prove that even hated by everyone ironborn dislike dornish.

 

8 minutes ago, redtree said:

Traitor to who ? They were fighting for their king whom they also sworn obedience and loyalty too. Jon Arryn dIdn't do what Hoster did, hell even Robert whose head was ordered to be on chopping block didn't went as far as Hoster Tully did to his bannermen. There's no point except cruelty in wiping the entire village, a group of smallfolks who were also ordered to obey their lord and couldn't fought that order. Why not just get rid of the house member who actually made the decision to rebel instead of putting helpless innocents who had no capability of influencing their lords decision ? He was cruel too

They were vassals of house tully, so by right they should first support their overlord, then king.

 

10 minutes ago, redtree said:

Oh thank you for reminding me that Northmen did another horrible cruelty that has nothing to do with defending their land. If you don't tjonos hink what the Arryn did as bad, perhaps what Jonos did to Ronnel can be a supplementary of their list

Do not turn the situation. And what Jonos Arryn has to do with it? He was hated by everyone and was ventually executed for his crimes.

12 minutes ago, redtree said:

And speaking about your hate of poison used by Oberyn: 

"History has little good to say about Ser Hobert Hightower, but no man can question the manner of his death. Rather than betray his fellow Caltrops, he let the squire fill his cup, drank deep, and asked for more. Once he saw Hightower drink, Ulf the Sot lived up to his name, putting down three cups before he began to yawn. The poison in the wine was a gentle one. When Lord Ulf went to sleep, never to awaken, Ser Hobert lurched to his feet and tried to make himself retch, but too late. His heart stopped within the hour"

Looks like we have another poisoner from the Reach too

He also killed himself. Bad example. 

13 minutes ago, redtree said:

You confused the order of events, even though Ormund was dead there were another Hightowers who were in charge who could've stopped the atrocities committed by the greens. It wasn't onlyl the two betrayers didn't raped and killed. Hobert Hightower (who became the main commander after Ormund's death) Unwin Peake, Roger Corne, Jon Roxton, Owen Fossoway, Marq Ambrose were there too yet they did nothing. Daeron told them to stop but nothing came out of his efforts.
Hugh hammer told Daeron has nothing to do with the cruelty

They did nothing because they were scared of two betrayers. They had dragons. 

 "Prince Daeron was sickened by all he saw and commanded Ser Hobert Hightower to put a stop to it, but Hightower’s efforts proved as ineffectual as the man himself. " - World of Ice and Fire - Hobert tried to stop this cruelty but he was too weak-willed.

 

17 minutes ago, redtree said:

"The schemes of Otto Hightower had borne fruit; meeting in Tyrosh, the High Council of the Triarchy had accepted his offer of alliance."
The greens had a hand on it, beside what was done in Tumbleton by Reachmen was close to Spicetown

Otto Hightower did not ordered sack of Spicetown. He only asked Triarchy for help.

And Spicetown is in driftmark on island, while tumbleton is in reach, so wtf? 

19 minutes ago, redtree said:

It is said. Women, cravens … and eunuchs"

"Ser Rodrik tugged at his whiskers. “Poison, well … that could be the dwarf’s work,
true enough. Or Cersei’s. It’s said poison is a woman’s weapon, begging your pardons,
my lady."

"A man will tell you poison is dishonorable, but a woman’s honor is different."

You added the dornishmen part yourself even though there's only one dornishmen who used poison while we already have 2 from the Reach and one from the Vale. Probably another person ? Which one ? Using a baseless generalization for an argument is weak and a two-edged sword. With your logic i also can say, Olenna and that Hightower used poison, so probably more people in Reach use poison

I did not added this part. You used only these quotes what fitted to your words.

"The king quickly consolidated his control of Dorne, dealing with these rebels when he found them...though not without difficulty. In one infamous episode, apoisoned arrow meant for the king was taken instead by his cousin Prince Aemon (the younger son of Prince Viserys), who had to be sent home by ship to recover.  " - World of ice and fire, they used poison long before oberyn was born.

"Poison was for cravens, women, and Dornishmen. " - quote from dance of dragons, Victarion pov. e

"Quentyn had grown up amongst the courts of Dorne. Plots and poisons were no strangers to him " - Quote from quentyn pov

"Marghaz will wring a confession out of them, I do not doubt. They're all poisoners, these Dornish. Reznak says they worship snakes."  - quote from dany pov. Even in essos people  think about dornishmen as poisoners.

And what from the fact that some people in reach know poisons!? I am writing that in dorne poisoners are just more common used.

21 minutes ago, redtree said:

No, he said  "They are promiscuous people, no doubt. That is surely another reason these Reachmen and Stormlanders hate them." and i pointed out that people form those 2 regions can be openly promiscuous too to expose the hypocrisy. 

And he said nothing about paramour traditions, he said something about their view on bastard. Looks like you're making up words

Paramours are connected with promiscuous. I should have wrote more clearly. I give you this point.  I wanted to say that reach and stormlands are ok with having female paramours, but having paramours from both sexes is for them disgusting as in oberyn martell and rhodry martell from blood of dragons case.

[redtree]

48 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Dornishmen sent assasins on lords, maimed hostages and killed one king under peace banner.

That was during Aegon's era where he himself hired bounty for dornish lords
Those hostages before they were hostages were meant to infiltrate and kill their people
Daeron betrayed the pact that Aegon and Nymor had agreed on, both actions were wrong

Also, there are a lot of more cruel thing that other lords from other region did. Why not bring them but only put the spotlight on Dorne ? 
 

48 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Emmm... not really. Nearly all dornish lords were ok with raiding dornish marches, even during peacetime as for example aliandra martell. They also are quite brutal with squashing rebellions. For example Ullers burned alive their rivals in castle.

So ? Why not put her to your exclusion list like Tywin Lannister who actually did a lot more ?
Regarding the Ullers, we had no idea about what had truly happened that led to that action but they were mentioned as rival so cruel ? yes, but no different from the ratcook
 

48 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Ironbon are cruel, but in westeros poisoning is more despised than raping as it is still very backward society. And rest of westeros hate ironborn just as much as dornishmen. I wanted only to prove that even hated by everyone ironborn dislike dornish.

Speaking about Ironborn, it reminds me about how Moat Cailins uses poisoned arrow too. How come no mention about that but yet again highlighting Dorne's 1 person actions ? 
And where was this mentioned that poison is worse then rape ?
 

48 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

They were vassals of house tully, so by right they should first support their overlord, then king.

Quote it, a king's hierarchy is higher then lord paramount that's why they paid taxes to the king, that's why they call the king "your grace". And you still fail to explain how wiping off an entire village of innocent people who had no control of what had happened over lords who actually ordered the actions is a positive thing

 

48 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Do not turn the situation. And what Jonos Arryn has to do with it? He was hated by everyone and was ventually executed for his crimes.

To add the list of cruelty off course, whether he was punished or not is beside the point

48 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

He also killed himself. Bad example. 

He didn't mean to kill himself that was why he tried to retch, retch means throw up, but that effort failed. He used poison on someone and tried to save himself because off course he didn't mean to do suicide but accidentally killed himself too, that's just stupid and moronic but that doesn't make him innocent

48 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

They did nothing because they were scared of two betrayers. They had dragons. 

Another imaginative word, they didn't order the army to kill everyone and rape a 8 year old girl, those were never mentioned. The army did that
 

48 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

 "Prince Daeron was sickened by all he saw and commanded Ser Hobert Hightower to put a stop to it, but Hightower’s efforts proved as ineffectual as the man himself. " - World of Ice and Fire - Hobert tried to stop this cruelty but he was too weak-willed.

So it didn't get stopped then ?
Also, if they were a honorable and brave men, why kill innocent boys and rape girls and women in the first place ? If they were honorable, they shouldn't have to be asked to stop let alone did it in the first place
 

48 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Otto Hightower did not ordered sack of Spicetown. He only asked Triarchy for help.

And Spicetown is in driftmark on island, while tumbleton is in reach, so wtf? 

Both had greens hand on it, the locations don't matter. Otto reached a deal not help so there's a big chance that he knew

 

48 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I did not added this part. You used only these quotes what fitted to your words.

"The king quickly consolidated his control of Dorne, dealing with these rebels when he found them...though not without difficulty. In one infamous episode, apoisoned arrow meant for the king was taken instead by his cousin Prince Aemon (the younger son of Prince Viserys), who had to be sent home by ship to recover.  " - World of ice and fire, they used poison long before oberyn was born.

"Poison was for cravens, women, and Dornishmen. " - quote from dance of dragons, Victarion pov. e

"Quentyn had grown up amongst the courts of Dorne. Plots and poisons were no strangers to him " - Quote from quentyn pov

"Marghaz will wring a confession out of them, I do not doubt. They're all poisoners, these Dornish. Reznak says they worship snakes."  - quote from dany pov. Even in essos people  think about dornishmen as poisoners.

A poisoned arrow, Moat Cailin uses that too long before WOT5K, just like Dorne

In the same paragraph he also said the same thing about Moat Cailin, again what's up with the double standard ? And if what you said is true that Ironborn hate Dornishmen, then the opinion has the possiblity of not being objective

Well Oberyn was around him, off course he knows

Off Course Hiznar would say anything to degrade Quentyn, he was a threat to his position. And after that, Ser Barristan said 
“They eat snakes,” said Ser Barristan. “It was your pit, your box, your seats. Sweet wine and soft cushions, figs and melons and honeyed locusts. You provided all. You urged Her Grace to try the locusts but never tasted one yourself.”
Even he himself defended the Dornish
 

48 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

And what from the fact that some people in reach know poisons!? I am writing that in dorne poisoners are just more common used.

Yet it seems that Reach people (along with other people from the other regions) has used poison too and we know that because GRRM put that in the series but you turned your back to the fact that i've quoted and kept mentioning Dornish is low because of poison from 1 guy
 

48 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Paramours are connected with promiscuous. I should have wrote more clearly. I give you this point.  I wanted to say that reach and stormlands are ok with having female paramours, but having paramours from both sexes is for them disgusting as in oberyn martell and rhodry martell from blood of dragons case.

Valens post was about bastard so i provided an argument about that, yet your previous post ran away from his statement.

What about just male paramour ? Like Loras Tyrell, is that disgusting too ? Or Jeremy Norridge, that was far more publicly scandalous because Daeron broke his betrothal with Olenna, daughter of a powerful house. Glass house argument

[Batman]

Plenty of good points already, I just wanted to add one. What Orys Baratheon endured at the hands of the Dornish does not paint them in a great light. Especially in places like the Reach or the Stormlands where chivalry matters. Having your hand cut off after your ransom had already been paid, would not be looked upon kindly by anyone. What Orys did would most likely just be written off as payback. 

[redtree]

Just now, Batman said:

Plenty of good points already, I just wanted to add one. What Orys Baratheon endured at the hands of the Dornish does not paint them in a great light. Especially in places like the Reach or the Stormlands where chivalry matters. Having your hand cut off after your ransom had already been paid, would not be looked upon kindly by anyone. What Orys did would most likely just be written off as payback. 

That was a payback but he did went to far with removing 4 limbs though, i should've added that to Stormland's list

I'm actually neutral toward Dorne but i think the way people looked down on it and praise the other regions while they have done things that are worse is unreasonable

[Batman]

6 minutes ago, redtree said:

That was a payback but he did went to far with removing 4 limbs though, i should've added that to Stormland's list

I'm actually neutral toward Dorne but i think the way people looked down on it and praise the other regions while they have done things that are worse is unreasonable

Orys did that to one man. All of Orys' knights and bannermen had their hands removed, not just Orys. Granted, I think it was more about him than any of his people, but still.

[Paxter Redwyne]

15 minutes ago, redtree said:

Those hostages before they were hostages were meant to infiltrate and kill their people
Daeron betrayed the pact that Aegon and Nymor had agreed on, both actions were wrong

Huh? You mean that all soldiers what dornishmen captured in battle were spies?

Peace between Aegon and Nymor was oveer 100 years ago. 

17 minutes ago, redtree said:

So ? Why not put her to your exclusion list like Tywin Lannister who actually did a lot more ?
Regarding the Ullers, we had no idea about what had truly happened that led to that action but they were mentioned as rival so cruel ? yes, but no different from the ratcook

Tywin did not sacked border kingdoms for no reason.

Rat Cook was punished, while Ullers take pride in their history.

18 minutes ago, redtree said:

Speaking about Ironborn, it reminds me about how Moat Cailins uses poisoned arrow too. How come no mention about that but yet again highlighting Dorne's 1 person actions ? 
And where was this mentioned that poison is worse then rape ?

Crannongmen are similar too dornish in some ways and they hated too by rest of westeros.

Most generals during war of five kings accept raping.  And i don't say that raping is bad, just saying that in westeros people do not cae about it much.

21 minutes ago, redtree said:

Quote it, a king's hierarchy is higher then lord paramount that's why they paid taxes to the king, that's why they call the king "your grace". And you still fail to explain how wiping off an entire village of innocent people who had no control of what had happened over lords who actually ordered the actions is a positive thing

If so, northmen houses would not  support robb stark, but joffrey baratheon. Even Stannis preffered to help robert than his king.

And why the hell you are non stop talking about cruelty bullshit? I do not deny that hoster was cruel to smallfolk!

24 minutes ago, redtree said:

To add the list of cruelty off course, whether he was punished or not is beside the point

I am really tired of your stupid arguments. It is point because if he was punished it means that his cruelty wasn't ignored by lords and commonfolk. Therefore, unlike wyl of wyl who never actually paid for his crimes as martells didn't considered maiming hundreds of hostages as bad thing.

28 minutes ago, redtree said:

He didn't mean to kill himself that was why he tried to retch, retch means throw up, but that effort failed. He used poison on someone and tried to save himself because off course he didn't mean to do suicide but accidentally killed himself too, that's just stupid and moronic but that doesn't make him innocent

He tried to retch only after Ulf was dead! How could he plan that he will survive poison? 

30 minutes ago, redtree said:

Another imaginative word, they didn't order the army to kill everyone and rape a 8 year old girl, those were never mentioned. The army did that

This is getting ridiculous. Who then ordered to sack city? Army don't do anything wothout order.

31 minutes ago, redtree said:

So it didn't get stopped then ?
Also, if they were a honorable and brave men, why kill innocent boys and rape girls and women in the first place ? If they were honorable, they shouldn't have to be asked to stop let alone did it in the first place

Ehh, so you suggest that normally all soldiers are good and honorable and only reachmen are so cruel and filthy?

33 minutes ago, redtree said:

Both had greens hand on it, the locations don't matter. Otto reached a deal not help so there's a big chance that he knew

Your words:

 

1 hour ago, redtree said:

The greens had a hand on it, beside what was done in Tumbleton by Reachmen was close to Spicetown

So you are now denying your own words. This discussion is getting more and more pointless

36 minutes ago, redtree said:

A poisoned arrow, Moat Cailin uses that too long before WOT5K, just like Dorne

In the same paragraph he also said the same thing about Moat Cailin, again what's up with the double standard ? And if what you said is true that Ironborn hate Dornishmen, then the opinion has the possiblity of not being objective

Well Oberyn was around him, off course he knows

Off Course Hiznar would say anything to degrade Quentyn, he was a threat to his position. And after that, Ser Barristan said 
“They eat snakes,” said Ser Barristan. “It was your pit, your box, your seats. Sweet wine and soft cushions, figs and melons and honeyed locusts. You provided all. You urged Her Grace to try the locusts but never tasted one yourself.”
Even he himself defended the Dornish

And bog devils are hated too.

Quentyn was raised in Yronwood, while Oberyn was in Sunspear. It makes no sense.

Even Barristan? He is most honorable man in seven kingdoms! 

39 minutes ago, redtree said:

Yet it seems that Reach people (along with other people from the other regions) has used poison too and we know that because GRRM put that in the series but you turned your back to the fact that i've quoted and kept mentioning Dornish is low because of poison from 1 guy

I NEVER SAID THAT ONLY DORNE USES POISONS!!!

39 minutes ago, redtree said:

Valens post was about bastard so i provided an argument about that, yet your previous post ran away from his statement.

What about just male paramour ? Like Loras Tyrell, is that disgusting too ? Or Jeremy Norridge, that was far more publicly scandalous because Daeron broke his betrothal with Olenna, daughter of a powerful house. Glass house argument

You have some fetish with glass houses? All male paramours outside dorne are despised, while in dorne they are accepted!!!

[redtree]

19 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Huh? You mean that all soldiers what dornishmen captured in battle were spies?

Infiltrate and kill, soldiers do exactly just that
 

20 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Peace between Aegon and Nymor was oveer 100 years ago. 

The peace was between House Targaryen and House Martell, not just Aegon and Nymor. That should have lasting effect but Daeron broke it because he thought the peace was an unfinished business
 

22 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Tywin did not sacked border kingdoms for no reason.

No, he just sent 12000 soldiers under peace banner and sacked a city and killed prince and princesses. You excused him, why not the Dornish princess who merely supported it ? Double standard
 

25 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Rat Cook was punished, while Ullers take pride in their history.

Urgh, which is why is i said we have no idea how it led to that occurance while the story of Rat Cook is clearly fleshed out
 

26 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Crannongmen are similar too dornish in some ways and they hated too by rest of westeros.

See, now you get it. Other people use poison too yet we some people in this thread only mention Dorne
 

27 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Most generals during war of five kings accept raping.  And i don't say that raping is bad, just saying that in westeros people do not cae about it much.

Tywin ordered raping, Stannis gelded rapist, Randyl forbid it and Robb made no mention of it

 

29 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

If so, northmen houses would not  support robb stark, but joffrey baratheon. Even Stannis preffered to help robert than his king.

And why the hell you are non stop talking about cruelty bullshit? I do not deny that hoster was cruel to smallfolk

Stannis said it was difficult because his main concern is duty yet Robert is his brother and he was called to death for no reason. Easy situation. Robb's dad got imprisoned and executed for following the previous king's order, another easy situation. 

No you do not deny, you just didn't mention it. You kept saying that they were traitor and they were supposed to obey their liege lord. 
 

33 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I am really tired of your stupid arguments. It is point because if he was punished it means that his cruelty wasn't ignored by lords and commonfolk. Therefore, unlike wyl of wyl who never actually paid for his crimes as martells didn't considered maiming hundreds of hostages as bad thing.

Dude, getting tired of you running from topics here. The point is many other regions committed cruelty too, yet only Dorne got the bad rep from it. Lannisters also didn't consider what Clegane&Co did as terrible and let them ran around
 

37 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

He tried to retch only after Ulf was dead! How could he plan that he will survive poison? 

No, see, you keep making up things. Ulf was only asleep so he thought he could've survived if he retch
 

39 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

This is getting ridiculous. Who then ordered to sack city? Army don't do anything wothout order.

Another things that you made up, quote it where the 2 betrayers ordered army to sack the city. You won't find it because it they were only dragon riders NOT army commander. The commanders were the names i mentioned before
 

41 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Ehh, so you suggest that normally all soldiers are good and honorable and only reachmen are so cruel and filthy?

No, strawman argument. i've never said that
 

43 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Your words:

 

So you are now denying your own words. This discussion is getting more and more pointless

Close in level of atrocities not area, i also said that in both areas greens had their hands on it
 

44 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

And bog devils are hated too.

Hated? No, made fun of? yes. In this thread it's as if Dorne is worse

45 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Quentyn was raised in Yronwood, while Oberyn was in Sunspear. It makes no sense.

So ? Doran didn't leave him in Yronwood isolated, they have methods of communications. He knows about his uncle and off course he has heard stories about him. 

 

47 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Even Barristan? He is most honorable man in seven kingdoms! 

Exactly, the knight you called as the most honorable man had just defended Dornish from their reputation

 

49 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I NEVER SAID THAT ONLY DORNE USES POISONS!!!

No, you just kept mentioning poison as reason to hate Dorne 
 

50 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

You have some fetish with glass houses? All male paramours outside dorne are despised, while in dorne they are accepted!!!

No but apparently people have tendency for hypocrisy. Just to clarify, do you know what glass house argument means ?

Reachmen i mentioned above also have had male paramours but you only mentioned the Dornish guy ergo hypocrite


 

[Paxter Redwyne]

8 minutes ago, redtree said:

Infiltrate and kill, soldiers do exactly just that

No, this is assasin's job.

9 minutes ago, redtree said:

The peace was between House Targaryen and House Martell, not just Aegon and Nymor. That should have lasting effect but Daeron broke it because he thought the peace was an unfinished business

You honestly think that this peace was signed for eternity?

10 minutes ago, redtree said:

No, he just sent 12000 soldiers under peace banner and sacked a city and killed prince and princesses. You excused him, why not the Dornish princess who merely supported it ? Double standard

He did not used peace banner and i did not excused him. I said that he did not raided other kingdoms for no reason.

11 minutes ago, redtree said:

See, now you get it. Other people use poison too yet we some people in this thread only mention Dorne

I never said that only dorne use poison.

12 minutes ago, redtree said:

Tywin ordered raping, Stannis gelded rapist, Randyl forbid it and Robb made no mention of it

About Stannis you are right, but Randyll forbid only to rape women in ally area as far i know.

17 minutes ago, redtree said:

Stannis said it was difficult because his main concern is duty yet Robert is his brother and he was called to death for no reason. Easy situation. Robb's dad got imprisoned and executed for following the previous king's order, another easy situation. 

No you do not deny, you just didn't mention it. You kept saying that they were traitor and they were supposed to obey their liege lord. 

Therefore, Goodbrooks and other should be following hoster as his cause was right to rebel against aerys i.

18 minutes ago, redtree said:

Dude, getting tired of you running from topics here. The point is many other regions committed cruelty too, yet only Dorne got the bad rep from it. Lannisters also didn't consider what Clegane&Co did as terrible and let them ran around

Lannisters under tywin rule have horrible reputation too.

19 minutes ago, redtree said:

No, see, you keep making up things. Ulf was only asleep so he thought he could've survived if he retch

I doubt that he planned from beginning to survive poisoning. He did similar thing to cressen. It's rather normal that after he thought he won he tried to save his life.

21 minutes ago, redtree said:

Close in level of atrocities not area, i also said that in both areas greens had their hands on it

Gah, I understood that line wrong. I understand that tumbleton was horrible, but you cant hate greens for things what triarchy did in driftmark.

22 minutes ago, redtree said:

Hated? No, made fun of? yes. In this thread it's as if Dorne is worse

This thread is about why people hate dornishmen. And while crannongmen weren't involved in as many wars as dornishmen, they fast achieved hate from ironborn.

24 minutes ago, redtree said:

So ? Doran didn't leave him in Yronwood isolated, they have methods of communications. He knows about his uncle and off course he has heard stories about him. 

But Quentyn wasn't tutored by oberyn and if only his uncle use poison in dorne he had no reason to know much about poisons.

25 minutes ago, redtree said:

No, you just kept mentioning poison as reason to hate Dorne 

Because this is one of things why people hate dornishmen. Unlike in rest of westeros, poison is rather common in dorne, and those who use it outside dorne are hated too.

 

27 minutes ago, redtree said:

No but apparently people have tendency for hypocrisy. Just to clarify, do you know what glass house argument means ?

Reachmen i mentioned above also have had male paramours but you only mentioned the Dornish guy ergo hypocrite

You know what hypocrisy is? It is criticizing something while doing it itself. I only told that because same sex paramours are accepted in dorne, people dislike them. I do not need to use examples of male paramours outside dorne as they were despised by their society as in laenor's case when people had him in very low regard simply because of his homosexuality. You're taking words out of context and then adding some more from your head.

 

 

 

[Dofs]

TWoIaF game me an impression that back in the day they were similar to the Ironborn and liked to raid on their neighbours, killing, looting and raping. So hence the hate. 

[redtree]

29 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

No, this is assasin's job.

I think this is a language barrier, infiltrate is another word of enter or invade. Soldiers do infiltrate and kill

29 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

You honestly think that this peace was signed for eternity?

It's a peace treaty not food products, there are no expiration date
 

29 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

He did not used peace banner and i did not excused him. I said that he did not raided other kingdoms for no reason.

Yes, it was under peace banner, he even offered fake support which was why the gate got opened.
Yes you did, you implied that he was the bad fruit of Lannister so Lannister was generally ok but one Dornish princess who merely supported and Martells got the bad rep

 

29 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I never said that only dorne use poison.

I've replied to this statement in my previous post

 

29 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

About Stannis you are right, but Randyll forbid only to rape women in ally area as far i know.

So rape in an inn is ok ? Come on now, he forbid rape not just rape in certain area

 

29 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Therefore, Goodbrooks and other should be following hoster as his cause was right to rebel against aerys i.

See, no mention about the smallfolks who got unfairly butchered again. I was right, you just keep shoving it under the carpet and justified his action. 
 

29 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Lannisters under tywin rule have horrible reputation too.

Yet you mentioned Tywin merely as the bad apple

29 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I doubt that he planned from beginning to survive poisoning. He did similar thing to cressen. It's rather normal that after he thought he won he tried to save his life.

Another imaginative argument since your statement has never been mentioned in the book. 
So it's correct then, he used poison to kill not to kill and suicide as you first stated
 

29 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Gah, I understood that line wrong. I understand that tumbleton was horrible, but you cant hate greens for things what triarchy did in driftmark.

They signed a pact, Otto must've suggested or at least known their reputation and their plan therefore he's not innocent
 

29 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

This thread is about why people hate dornishmen. And while crannongmen weren't involved in as many wars as dornishmen, they fast achieved hate from ironborn.

Off course ironborn hate them, they were trying to take their castle for god's sake. This is special occasion
 

29 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

But Quentyn wasn't tutored by oberyn and if only his uncle use poison in dorne he had no reason to know much about poisons.

He didn't need to be tutored to know his famous reputation, words spread
 

29 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Because this is one of things why people hate dornishmen. Unlike in rest of westeros, poison is rather common in dorne, and those who use it outside dorne are hated too.

How common ? In story so far, only Oberyn used it on enemy and perhaps some poisoned arrow that the other region use too. Reachmen use it but they are not hated
 

29 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

You know what hypocrisy is? It is criticizing something while doing it itself. I only told that because same sex paramours are accepted in dorne, people dislike them. I do not need to use examples of male paramours outside dorne as they were despised by their society as in laenor's case when people had him in very low regard simply because of his homosexuality. You're taking words out of context and then adding some more from your head.

Off course, i'm seeing one right now. 

[Paxter Redwyne]

Just now, redtree said:

It's a peace treaty not food products, there are no expiration date

Basic part of treaty is that it is signed for predetermined number of years. If it would be true, in medieval times wars between countries wouldn't happen every twenty years.

1 minute ago, redtree said:

Yes, it was under peace banner, he even offered fake support which was wy the gate got opened.
Yes you did, you implied that he was the bad fruit of Lannister so Lannister was generally ok but one Dornish princess who merely supported and Martells got the bad rep

I am not sure if tywin really offered aerys help or aerys just assumed that tywin's army near king's landing is here to help him. and there were many ruthless martells: Red princes( who killed people who spoke rhoynar),Meria with her son Nymor, Deria (who did nothing to stop vulture king), aliandra(who supprted raids, marence (who was prince of dorne during conquest of dorne) and oberyn.

4 minutes ago, redtree said:

So rape in an inn is ok ? Come on now, he forbid rape not just rape in certain area

Not sure, but wasn't that inn in area controlled by king tommen?

6 minutes ago, redtree said:

See, no mention about the smallfolks who got unfairly butchered again. I was right, you just keep shoving it under the carpet and justified his action. 

I did not said that he had right to butcher smallfolk. I said that he had right to punish treachourous vasals. However, you are right that he acted too harsh.

8 minutes ago, redtree said:

Yet you mentioned Tywin merely as the bad apple

I said that during reign of this "bad apple" lannisters are badly regarded. What inconsequence do you see?

9 minutes ago, redtree said:

Another imaginative argument since your statement has never been mentioned in the book. 
So it's correct then, he used poison to kill not to kill and suicide as you first stated

There is nothing in books what suggest that he planned to survive. Now you use imaginative argument.

11 minutes ago, redtree said:

They signed a pact, Otto must've suggested or at least known their reputation and their plan therefor he's not innocent

Again, you cannot blame one person for what did his ally, and how otto was supposed to predict everything what triarchy did? He asked to help defeat rhaenyra, not to sack driftmark.

 

13 minutes ago, redtree said:

He didn't need to be tutored to know his famous reputation, words spread

What? So you say that from is reputation quentyn would learn about poisons?

14 minutes ago, redtree said:

How common ? In story so far, only Oberyn used it on enemy and perhaps some poisoned arrow that the other region use too. Reachmen use it but they are not hated

So far in story, Dorne did nothing in war. And no, reach do not use poisoned arrows.

15 minutes ago, redtree said:

Off course, i'm seeing one right now. 

Your ignorance is strikingly. You don't even refer to my post. You confuse common facts, ignore my accusations, twist my words and you can't confess to mistake when you do one.

[norwaywolf123]

8 hours ago, redtree said:

Yes those honorable and brave men also committed siege of Tumbleton twice (to the point that prince Daeron was so disgusted by the cruelty he ordered them to stop but apparently those honorable men told him to chillax because it was how war is supposed to be), and Siege of Spicetown. Spicetown was noted to be a bigger trading port compared to KL yet the green killed EVERYONE. They also burnt almost every single building including High Tide, the seat of Velaryon. The damage was so devastating that it couldn't be rebuilt
 

Spicetown is in the Crownlands. The siege/sack/burning of Spicetown was pepetated by the three daughters (Lys,Tyrosh,Myr). I think they joined the greens and were so cruel becouse Daemon Targaryen warred with them over the Stepstones and Corlys Velaryon was one of Daemons biggest supporters

[redtree]

7 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Basic part of treaty is that it is signed for predetermined number of years. If it would be true, in medieval times wars between countries wouldn't happen every twenty years.

They broke it because they didn't care not because they were out of the expiration date. Quote it where it's mentioned that treaty that Aegon made had an expiration date. You can't
 

7 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I am not sure if tywin really offered aerys help or aerys just assumed that tywin's army near king's landing is here to help him.

"Tywin Lannister, Lord of Casterly Rock and the Warden of the West who had remained neutral until the Trident, marched to the gates of King's Landing with a force of 12,000 men from the westerlands, claiming loyalty to Aerys and asking to be let in."
 

7 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I am not sure if tywin really offered aerys help or aerys just assumed that tywin's army near king's landing is here to help him. and there were many ruthless martells: Red princes( who killed people who spoke rhoynar),Meria with her son Nymor, Deria (who did nothing to stop vulture king), aliandra(who supprted raids, marence (who was prince of dorne during conquest of dorne) and oberyn.

Meria is ruthless ? Her country was under invasion and you called her ruthless, you're really grasping
Nymor was the one who suggested peace at the first place, ending the war. That's diplomatic not cruel
Aliandra ? she wasn't even half as bad as Tywin, again another excuse for Tywin and Lannister but not for her.
Oberyn is cruel ? Lol
Double standard, so clear
North also has had harsh rulers, actually you were the one who reminded me about it in your previous post. But nothing said about that region
 

7 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Not sure, but wasn't that inn in area controlled by king tommen?

Tarly carried Tommen's banner. And quote it where it said that it's ok to rape somewhere else ? You can't
I'm getting tired if your imaginative words and asking you to quote baseless statements
Don't you feel weirded out when you can't provide quote ? Just like when you stated that two betrayers did it but you can't find the quote proving my point is right

7 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I said that during reign of this "bad apple" lannisters are badly regarded. What inconsequence do you see?

Because at first you excuse the Lannister and then you keep adding stuff until your final statement differs from the first
 

7 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

There is nothing in books what suggest that he planned to survive. Now you use imaginative argument.

"Ser Hobert lurched to his feet and tried to make himself retch, but too late. His heart stopped within the hour"
This sentence is easy to grasp, if you deny that he was trying to survive, well, i might've overestimated you

Oh wait you didn't deny it
"He did similar thing to cressen. It's rather normal that after he thought he won he tried to save his life. "
Even you stated that he tried to save his life after Ulf went asleep

This was another part where you twisted facts but got caught btw, you said Ulf was dead but i found he was just asleep
Who's the imaginative person now ?

7 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Again, you cannot blame one person for what did his ally, and how otto was supposed to predict everything what triarchy did? He asked to help defeat rhaenyra, not to sack driftmark.

Word twist #999, i said he had a hand on it, i didn't say the only one person to blame is Otto

 

7 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

What? So you say that from is reputation quentyn would learn about poisons?

Quentyn said he knows about poison, he never said he knows about making one
 

7 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

So far in story, Dorne did nothing in war. And no, reach do not use poisoned arrows.

This is about poison and so far only Oberyn used it while 2 Reach nobles has used it
The other region i talked about is North (Moat Cailin), pretty sure i mentioned that in the same post
 

7 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Your ignorance is strikingly. You don't even refer to my post. You confuse common facts, ignore my accusations, twist my words and you can't confess to mistake when you do one.

You were the one who kept adding statement, even some unreal ones, but then i pointed out that people from other regions have done the same yet got nothing from it. 


If you want to reply to this post go ahead, debating with you is like beating a dead horse so i won't