Guerì

Aeron's second vision:the woman with hands of white fire

66 posts in this topic

On ‎01‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 10:17 AM, Guerì said:

Reading the description of the new TWOW chapter read by GRRM at Balticon,I had a thought of who this woman might be:Malora Hightower,lord's Leyton's daughter.

The reason that brought me here is that I put together a few hints that might telle us who she is:

  • in the vision the woman is dressed in white and we know Melora is called the Mad Maid.In one of Cersei's chapters in AFFC Cersei speaks of the maid day (or something like that) regarding Margaery Tyrell and her companions,saying that to celebrate this particular day,all the maid ladies will dress in white.
  • the long shadow can be easily connected to the shadow of the High Tower,and,though I can't recall if it was maester Aemon in one of his memories,or Pate in the epilogue or whoever else,there's a reference about the shadow of the tower being useed to tell the hour of the day,basing on where the shadow falls.So the long shadow is there in the books.
  • in the books,I don't remember correctly what book or who said that,someone speaks of lord Leyton and his daughter working some magic from the top of their tower,so,given Euron's clear acquaintance with magic,it's not impossible that the two of them might be brought to one another.

Old town is known for having probably the largest books collection of the world,and for sure there's that famous book of dragon's lore that we heard of.Euron would be interested of such book,'cause even if his horn works as intended,somebody might find in the book a way to undo what he did or to kill the dragons right away.Of Melora we know little or less,but as far as we know,she could even be the "most beautiful woman on earth",meaning that sending Victarion on search of Dany was just a ploy to get to what he really wanted.At last we have the reference to both Euron and Melora as mad,nothing too strong but certainly a tie nonetheless...

Tell me what you think about it,folks!

I like this a lot! The Hightowers were big players in the past so it'd be brilliant if they came back in some badass form again

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On June 1, 2016 at 2:17 AM, Guerì said:

Reading the description of the new TWOW chapter read by GRRM at Balticon,I had a thought of who this woman might be:Malora Hightower,lord's Leyton's daughter.

The reason that brought me here is that I put together a few hints that might telle us who she is:

  • in the vision the woman is dressed in white and we know Melora is called the Mad Maid.In one of Cersei's chapters in AFFC Cersei speaks of the maid day (or something like that) regarding Margaery Tyrell and her companions,saying that to celebrate this particular day,all the maid ladies will dress in white.
  • the long shadow can be easily connected to the shadow of the High Tower,and,though I can't recall if it was maester Aemon in one of his memories,or Pate in the epilogue or whoever else,there's a reference about the shadow of the tower being useed to tell the hour of the day,basing on where the shadow falls.So the long shadow is there in the books.
  • in the books,I don't remember correctly what book or who said that,someone speaks of lord Leyton and his daughter working some magic from the top of their tower,so,given Euron's clear acquaintance with magic,it's not impossible that the two of them might be brought to one another.

Old town is known for having probably the largest books collection of the world,and for sure there's that famous book of dragon's lore that we heard of.Euron would be interested of such book,'cause even if his horn works as intended,somebody might find in the book a way to undo what he did or to kill the dragons right away.Of Melora we know little or less,but as far as we know,she could even be the "most beautiful woman on earth",meaning that sending Victarion on search of Dany was just a ploy to get to what he really wanted.At last we have the reference to both Euron and Melora as mad,nothing too strong but certainly a tie nonetheless...

Tell me what you think about it,folks!

Late to the thread, but hey, that's a cool idea! The Mad Maid, I like it. I agree with your analysis of the Hightower symbolism - it's a white tower topped with a crown of flame. What's interesting is that the rumor is that maybe Lord Leyton and there Mad maid could summon an army from the deeps - but that's exactly what legends of the Ironborn speak of, a descendent from the deep ones. It's a weird connection, but it could potentially build on the idea that there could be an alliance stealthy, back door alliance somehow between the two, or that one will form in the future. Seems like a long shot, but who knows. Perhaps Leyton has a plan to use the Ironborn in some clever way for some hidden purpose. 

I actually found a lot of similarities between Melisandre and hands of white fore lady, and many correlations between her vision in ADWD and Damphair's. I just posted on reddit about it, if you're curious. There's a scene where Mel appears to have "pale, sorcerous flames" rising from her hands.

 

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On 6/1/2016 at 2:37 PM, Nights Kings Queen said:

That's what I was thinking as well. I don't think it was Cersei, if it was Cersei I'd imagine it would have said "green" fire

A lot of people feel this way, but Pale Fire is a common fantasy trope to elude to magic. Jon sees Melisandre bathed in Pale Fire. She's a person bursting with magic. Cersei doesn't have magic powers. But she uses magic via wildfire and Qyburn. So her hands being pale fire make a lot of sense as imagery.

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Hey guys!  I've been doing some long-form essay writing over on reddit and came up with some more Malora Hightower is the woman with hands of fire arguments

  • She's described as a long and tall and terrible woman.  There are some textual support that the Hightowers are "tall" and "long" like the Lannisters are golden haired and the Starks are wolfish
  • The pale white fire can be a reference to the flame at the top of the Hightower
  • The shadow can be a reference to the fog or from receiving education from an imported Essos shadowbinder tutor, similar to Arya getting lessons from an awesome water dancer
  • The root of Malora's name is Mal, which is the root word of evil (malicious, malignant, etc.)
  • There is a subtle hint that Malora may be studying Deep Ones magic (the captain of the Huntress references the Hightowers raising an army from the deeps)

Anywho, it's not a slam dunk but I think it's a better case than the others I've seen so far like Daenerys (who is short, not tall), a female Other (the pale white fire knocks that one out), and Mel (too far away to impact the Euron Hightower subplot, which seems primed to go off very soon, and no rationale for assisting Euron who locks up red priests for blood sacrifice)  

Edited by nategator

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The obvious choices are connected with certain colours:

  • Daenerys is the Silver Queen.
  • Melisandre is the Red Woman.
  • Cersei is connected to gold (Lannister gold, golden hair) or green (wildfire)

So I find your theory about Malora Hightower more possible to happen. I believe that Mel's vision in Dance about towers by the sea engulfed in a black and bloody tide was about Oldtown not Eastwatch.

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Hey, I’m coming in late on this one, but . . .

Whether it is Malora Hightower or not, I think that Malora is a solid outside of the box guess. I like it.

First, I think we have to view dreams inspire by Shade of the Evening as being prophetic, for what that is worth. The description of Daenerys drinking Shade of the Evening has such deliberate spot on parallels with the description of Bran’s experience with the Weirwood Paste, that it seems to be one of the examples of legit magic in the books.  Add to that the inverted black bark blue leaved trees that the stuff is made from.

Second, the pale flames jumped right out at me on my first read, largely because I am obsessed with this line from Game: “Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade.” This passage seems to be a very early reference to the Golden Emperors of the Dawn found The World of Ice and Fire: “Dominion then passed to [The God-on-Earth’s] eldest son, the Pearl Emperor, who ruled for a thousand years. Power then passed to the Jade Emperor, the Tourmaline Emperor, the Onyx Emperor, the Topaz Emperor, and the Opal Emperor . . . . When the daughter of the Opal Emperor ascended to power as the Amethyst Empress.” As such the pale flame seems to me to a reference to the magic of the Golden Empire of the Dawn. It seems likely that Valyrian magic is descendent from this, so I guess it’s not surprising that we get the pale flame description with the glass candle, but props to @Timmayanyhow, because I had never noticed that line before. This would seem to point toward Daenerys except that I don’t think the Targayans specifically and the Valyrian in general are the only direct descendants of the Golden Emperors, I suspect that the Daynes and less obviously, the Hightowers may be as well. The reasons behind the Daynes obvious. I’ll skip them, but the Hightowers seem to have been in Old Town before the First Men arrive and the scant descriptions of them seem to indicate they have Valyrian type looks.

Third, I think the answer to this riddle, might be in the rest of the dreams.  In one of his dreams, Euron blows his horn and dragons, krakens, and sphinxes come to the call. Symbolically, the dragons would be Targaryans, possibly Blackfyres, krakens would be Iron Born, but who are the sphinxs? I mean Aemon tells Sam that the sphinx is the riddle not the riddler, right? We have at least one description of a Valyrian sphinx in Essos and the Valyrians sphinxes in front of the Red Keep, but Sam also sees a Sphinx in Old Town near or in front of the Citadel. Of course we have the Alleras the Sphinx, who may be Sallera Sand, but Alleras might be too obvious. What if the Hightowers are the Sphinxes. It would definitely add support to the idea that Malora could be the Shadow Queen.


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On ‎7‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 7:10 PM, Durran Durrandon said:

Hey, I’m coming in late on this one, but . . .

 

Whether it is Malora Hightower or not, I think that Malora is a solid outside of the box guess. I like it.

 

First, I think we have to view dreams inspire by Shade of the Evening as being prophetic, for what that is worth. The description of Daenerys drinking Shade of the Evening has such deliberate spot on parallels with the description of Bran’s experience with the Weirwood Paste, that it seems to be one of the examples of legit magic in the books.  Add to that the inverted black bark blue leaved trees that the stuff is made from.

 

Second, the pale flames jumped right out at me on my first read, largely because I am obsessed with this line from Game: “Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade.” This passage seems to be a very early reference to the Golden Emperors of the Dawn found The World of Ice and Fire: “Dominion then passed to [The God-on-Earth’s] eldest son, the Pearl Emperor, who ruled for a thousand years. Power then passed to the Jade Emperor, the Tourmaline Emperor, the Onyx Emperor, the Topaz Emperor, and the Opal Emperor . . . . When the daughter of the Opal Emperor ascended to power as the Amethyst Empress.” As such the pale flame seems to me to a reference to the magic of the Golden Empire of the Dawn. It seems likely that Valyrian magic is descendent from this, so I guess it’s not surprising that we get the pale flame description with the glass candle, but props to @Timmayanyhow, because I had never noticed that line before. This would seem to point toward Daenerys except that I don’t think the Targayans specifically and the Valyrian in general are the only direct descendants of the Golden Emperors, I suspect that the Daynes and less obviously, the Hightowers may be as well. The reasons behind the Daynes obvious. I’ll skip them, but the Hightowers seem to have been in Old Town before the First Men arrive and the scant descriptions of them seem to indicate they have Valyrian type looks.

 

Third, I think the answer to this riddle, might be in the rest of the dreams.  In one of his dreams, Euron blows his horn and dragons, krakens, and sphinxes come to the call. Symbolically, the dragons would be Targaryans, possibly Blackfyres, krakens would be Iron Born, but who are the sphinxs? I mean Aemon tells Sam that the sphinx is the riddle not the riddler, right? We have at least one description of a Valyrian sphinx in Essos and the Valyrians sphinxes in front of the Red Keep, but Sam also sees a Sphinx in Old Town near or in front of the Citadel. Of course we have the Alleras the Sphinx, who may be Sallera Sand, but Alleras might be too obvious. What if the Hightowers are the Sphinxes. It would definitely add support to the idea that Malora could be the Shadow Queen.

 

 

Weirdly enough, I was reading this prologue recently and it seems the sphinxes outside the citadel are standard sphinxes. I've been contemplating whether it is significant or not that these sphinxes are different. I'm not sure.

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1 hour ago, bent branch said:

Weirdly enough, I was reading this prologue recently and it seems the sphinxes outside the citadel are standard sphinxes. I've been contemplating whether it is significant or not that these sphinxes are different. I'm not sure.

Well it is definitely deliberate. The Valyrian Sphinxes are specifically called Valyrian sphinxes and have different features, and Martin clearly intends fro the reader to be thinking about sphinxes, with Aemon talking about sphinxes to Sam and and Aleras the Sphinx showing up. So it would be weird if it wasn't significant somehow.

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5 hours ago, Durran Durrandon said:

Well it is definitely deliberate. The Valyrian Sphinxes are specifically called Valyrian sphinxes and have different features, and Martin clearly intends fro the reader to be thinking about sphinxes, with Aemon talking about sphinxes to Sam and and Aleras the Sphinx showing up. So it would be weird if it wasn't significant somehow.

Well, although I haven't settled on anything, I'm thinking the sphinx that Aemon refers to must be either the Citadel or a Lannister. I know I'm not the first to think either of these things, but that is kind of the way I'm going right now.

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@Durran Durrandon, I agree that Melora is a sneaky good candidate. I think we will be learning more about the mysterious Hightowers soon. 

Did you see my post on Reddit about Mel's hands of fire? 

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31 minutes ago, LmL said:

@Durran Durrandon, I agree that Melora is a sneaky good candidate. I think we will be learning more about the mysterious Hightowers soon. 

Did you see my post on Reddit about Mel's hands of fire? 

I'm not on Redit. I probably should be. Send me a link.

 

Edited by Durran Durrandon

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Never mind. I just saw you had a link to it further up the thread.

 

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Yeah, I think Mel is a good candidate and a better candidate if:

Spoiler

book events end up paralleling show events,

In addition to the passage you are siting:

"The mist rose from her pale flesh, and for a moment it seemed as if pale, sorcerous flames were playing about her fingers. “Take my hand,” she said again, “and let me save your sister.”

The phrase "pale flame" pops up around Melisandre a few other times. One is at the burning of The Seven in Clash. There is also a lot of green flame in that scene. Presumably Mel busted out some wild fire. The burning of the leeches in Storm of Swords, is another.

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13 hours ago, Durran Durrandon said:

Well it is definitely deliberate. The Valyrian Sphinxes are specifically called Valyrian sphinxes and have different features, and Martin clearly intends fro the reader to be thinking about sphinxes, with Aemon talking about sphinxes to Sam and and Aleras the Sphinx showing up. So it would be weird if it wasn't significant somehow.

Hm, I was just looking at that prophecy line again on another thread about "from a smoking tower, a great stone beast flew blazing shadow fire (or something like that).  This is one of the "lies" like Stannis and Aegon being AA's or true kings that Dany must slay in her vision.  The thing is, I was a lit major and I just can't get around "great stone beast" being anything but a sphinx.  It was the first thing I thought of when I read the line in the vision years ago.  Now the smoking tower could be a few places - the first ones I thought of were Harrenhal (when it burned but that was too long ago) and the Hightower (with its beacon alight).  

I think the next "lie" that Dany might have to slay is "from the Hightower, a sphinx-like lady wielding shadow fire (pale fire?)" sets up to be the next true queen? With Euron by her side? I mean, that could mean Sarella or Malora, but I find long, tall and sinister Malora a much more intriguing candidate.  Mels and Mals - traditional prefixes for witchy women!

I'm going to have to read the new chapter.  Love the discussion on here, and the theory itself, OP!

Also, in the World Book, we have the isle of Leng.  The people are inordinately tall and slender, almost a different species, and the female ruler of the island takes one Lengian mate to lead her armies, and one human mate to lead her navies.  Just throwing that out there because I saw reference on here to a long female shadow at Euron's side or something.

 

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On ‎7‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 2:36 AM, Lady Barbrey said:

Hm, I was just looking at that prophecy line again on another thread about "from a smoking tower, a great stone beast flew blazing shadow fire (or something like that).  This is one of the "lies" like Stannis and Aegon being AA's or true kings that Dany must slay in her vision.  The thing is, I was a lit major and I just can't get around "great stone beast" being anything but a sphinx.  It was the first thing I thought of when I read the line in the vision years ago.  Now the smoking tower could be a few places - the first ones I thought of were Harrenhal (when it burned but that was too long ago) and the Hightower (with its beacon alight).  

I think the next "lie" that Dany might have to slay is "from the Hightower, a sphinx-like lady wielding shadow fire (pale fire?)" sets up to be the next true queen? With Euron by her side? I mean, that could mean Sarella or Malora, but I find long, tall and sinister Malora a much more intriguing candidate.  Mels and Mals - traditional prefixes for witchy women!

I'm going to have to read the new chapter.  Love the discussion on here, and the theory itself, OP!

Also, in the World Book, we have the isle of Leng.  The people are inordinately tall and slender, almost a different species, and the female ruler of the island takes one Lengian mate to lead her armies, and one human mate to lead her navies.  Just throwing that out there because I saw reference on here to a long female shadow at Euron's side or something.

 

I was convinced that the smoking tower was the Hightower, but this quote from the sample chapter shows that Euron is undoubtedly the great stone beast breathing shadow fire and the castle off the Arbor is the smoking tower:

Quote

The Crow’s Eye spoke a command. A black sail was raised. Lines were cast off and the Silence backed away from shore to the slow beat of the oarmaster’s drum. Oars rising, and dipping, and rising again, churning the water. Above them, the castle was burning. Flames lept from the open windows.

ETA:  I also just had the thought that the Shield Islands were the towers swallowed by the sea.

Edited by bent branch

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There's no shadow fire or stone beast in the Euron chapter, I don't think it fits. There are a lot of towers that catch on fire. 

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3 hours ago, LmL said:

There's no shadow fire or stone beast in the Euron chapter, I don't think it fits. There are a lot of towers that catch on fire. 

And there is no cloth dragon or cheering crowds in any of the Aegon chapters, yet I bet you're convinced the cloth dragon symbolizes Aegon. The representations of these people is highly symbolic. I doubt there will be a scene that matches more closely.

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Another stray thought while listening to The Pirate History Podcast (rather good if you're looking for something to listen to during your commute and have exhausted the solid aSoIaF podcasts).

Malora Hightower in league with Euron could be GRMM's version of an evil Queen Elizabeth I of England.  Like Elizabeth, the Mad Maid is famously single, unlikely to take power because of her placement in the line of succession, (potential) leader of a land focusing on trade, using pirates for political purposes, and trying to push a religion that makes the head of the church the monarchy.  With this analogy, Euron would be sort of like Sir Francis Drake, using superior hit and run tactics to steal from a more powerful naval power, including surprising navigation to attack his victims unawares (i.e. deep water attack on Shield Islands = crossing the Straight of Magellan).  The reader from his POV sympathies is looking at all of this from the perspective of the Catholic Spaniards rather than its traditional pro-Anglo perspective. 

Taking the analogy one step further, the Ironborn would essentially be the Sea Beggars (i.e. the Low Countries).  

For those that like to speculate what real world history rhymes with aSoIaF, I thought this speculation might be interesting.  

Sadly, for me, if this analogy is correct it starts really pointing to a big (magical) storm being the doom of the Redwyne fleet (the equivalent of the Spanish Armada) rather than my preferred option, krakens.  :-(

Edited by nategator

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5 hours ago, bent branch said:

And there is no cloth dragon or cheering crowds in any of the Aegon chapters, yet I bet you're convinced the cloth dragon symbolizes Aegon. The representations of these people is highly symbolic. I doubt there will be a scene that matches more closely.

That's a fair point, but we still need some sort of correlation to the symbol in question. Jon Con is a "stone beast" because he's a Griffen with greyscale, and shadow fire could = black fire because shadows are associated with darkness. fAegon can be a cloth dragon for several reasons : he's wearing "cloth" of House targaryen which belies his true nature. The cloth dragon is said to basically be a foil for the hero to fight, and that appears to be fAegon's purpose for Dany. So it fits pretty well. 

If the stone beast is supposed to be Euron, he needs some sort of connection to that idea. He has V steel armor, which can sort of stretch to stone (especially since in the dream it's onyx armor), and beast can fit because he looks like Cthulhu in that dream... but It's a bit of a stretch, because the beast (Squid) vision doesn't have any stone. And where is the shadow fire? I'm not saying it can't be Euron but I am not seeing a match currently.

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5 hours ago, nategator said:

Another stray thought while listening to The Pirate History Podcast (rather good if you're looking for something to listen to during your commute and have exhausted the solid aSoIaF podcasts).

Malora Hightower in league with Euron could be GRMM's version of an evil Queen Elizabeth I of England.  Like Elizabeth, the Mad Maid is famously single, unlikely to take power because of her placement in the line of succession, (potential) leader of a land focusing on trade, using pirates for political purposes, and trying to push a religion that makes the head of the church the monarchy.  With this analogy, Euron would be sort of like Sir Francis Drake, using superior hit and run tactics to steal from a more powerful naval power, including surprising navigation to attack his victims unawares (i.e. deep water attack on Shield Islands = crossing the Straight of Magellan).  The reader from his POV sympathies is looking at all of this from the perspective of the Catholic Spaniards rather than its traditional pro-Anglo perspective. 

Taking the analogy one step further, the Ironborn would essentially be the Sea Beggars (i.e. the Low Countries).  

For those that like to speculate what real world history rhymes with aSoIaF, I thought this speculation might be interesting.  

Sadly, for me, if this analogy is correct it starts really pointing to a big (magical) storm being the doom of the Redwyne fleet (the equivalent of the Spanish Armada) rather than my preferred option, krakens.  :-(

I love this reference and parallel, and I don't think it rules out krakens. Euron already uses storms to aid him which he summons with blood magic, and the krakens may be summoned with blood magic too. I wouldn't be surprised to see both.

I really like the idea of Mallora conspiring with Euron somehow... that would be sinister. We know almost nothing solid about the Hightowers and what we do know evokes mystery and suspicion. 

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