Bad writing or fake arya?{spoilers}

[AshStark]

On 6/6/2016 at 11:47 AM, Iona said:

Naah, something definitely not right with this scene. The only problem I have with this "someone else was posing as Arya" theory is that I don't think the FM ever got her face. We saw Jaqen skinning a guys face off earlier and making threats, so I'm assuming the FM can only use a face that's been "donated" to them.

But we DID see Arya pull off the face of jaquen over and over until she reached her own....was that in her head or how did they get her face that time? it was never explained.

[Iona]

2 minutes ago, AshStark said:

But we DID see Arya pull off the face of jaquen over and over until she reached her own....was that in her head or how did they get her face that time? it was never explained.

All this face-changing and its mechanics has been really troubling me ever since the episode ended. I went back to look at how Jaqen first changed his face way back in Harrenhal, but that was no help, as he had his back to Arya, and just sort of nodded - whoosh, a new face had appeared. Glamours just feel too blaah, so I'm reluctant in accepting FM would use such party tricks..

Arya-Jaqen - way too much FaceTiming... I can honestly say I've never hungered to see the next episode of any TV series this desperately.

[AshStark]

50 minutes ago, Iona said:

All this face-changing and its mechanics has been really troubling me ever since the episode ended. I went back to look at how Jaqen first changed his face way back in Harrenhal, but that was no help, as he had his back to Arya, and just sort of nodded - whoosh, a new face had appeared. Glamours just feel too blaah, so I'm reluctant in accepting FM would use such party tricks..

Arya-Jaqen - way too much FaceTiming... I can honestly say I've never hungered to see the next episode of any TV series this desperately.

Lol. I feel the same! i need some explanation!! I can't decide whether I think that was really Arya or not. Part of me thinks that there is no way that was her, the other half thinks it was just bad writing. Either way, i don't see how someone could survive that brutal stabbing --- but this is fiction, so you know movie/book magic. You can't make logical statements about a world with dragons and magic. anything is possible.

I don't think it was glamour, i'm with you. too basic for the faceless. but again, i'm not a book reader YET so I don't know how much glamour is used by others, other than the red priestess.

[Juggzy]

21 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

 Not being predictable is a bonus but not at the expense of randomly cutting up the narrative to be shocking....which is a trap the show has already fallen into.

A really good story is entirely predictable, but you don't know it until after the 'unpredictable' events have happened.  This is why Martin's writing is so good - he does leave clues and indications all over the place, but you don't know it until afterwards.  Knowing that Martin does that, however, people now consider a possible event and then look for clues in the narrative that it may be about to happen. This, I think, is what people are confusing with predictability. 

[The Unlikely]

My theory is, it was the waif dressed like Arya. The waif walked with her hands behind her back. She was trying to make it look like Arya was paying for passage back to Westeros. She knew Arya comes from a Lord's castle so she booked her a cabin thinking that is how Arya would likely travel. 

I think the old lady/waif, was Jaqen

 

[ShadowKitteh]

1 hour ago, The Unlikely said:

My theory is, it was the waif dressed like Arya. The waif walked with her hands behind her back. She was trying to make it look like Arya was paying for passage back to Westeros. She knew Arya comes from a Lord's castle so she booked her a cabin thinking that is how Arya would likely travel. 

I think the old lady/waif, was Jaqen

 

I agree - it was the Waif wearing Arya face, but it's Arya not Jaqen, who is wearing the Old Lady/Waif's faces. 

This has all been a test for Arya. 

I posted this on page 21, but it seems to be invisible: 

 

OMG. I think I just figured it out from your post! Seriously. I think the answer is in what you just wrote^^. At least your comment made it click in my head... 

1. "Arya would never be so reckless." I'm assuming this is about her throwing LOTS of money around, booking passage, demanding a cabin, and all very publicly... CORRECT.

And she's not. It wasn't Arya. It was The Waif wearing Arya's face. Perhaps her plan was never to kill Arya, we're just led to believe that with the writing. Maybe she just planned to get her the hell away, and back home. She could threaten to kill Arya, "Passage booked. Cabin. Go the fuck home or you're dead", hence the moved up departure time.

2. "Next, if Jaqen have agenda with Arya and want what is best for her, doesn`t make sens to send Waif after her, if he don`t think Arya could handle her. Just look what trouble Jaqen go to get Arya in Bravos and he would let her go just like that." CORRECT!!

Because he doesn't send the Waif after Arya.

We've been setup from last season to know you can wear multiple faces at a time.

Arya, wearing both the Waif's face, and the old woman's, went after the Waif on her own. 

Arya's smart enough to know the consequences of not killing Lady Crane. She made a judgement call anyway, not only sparing her, but warning her. She was supposed to NOT kill Lady Crane, because the House of Black & White is NOT just assassins for hire.

They're Faceless Men.

The insurance dude was a bad dude, and needed taking out.

The three lives she gave to Jaqen at Harrenhall were all bad men, and needed taking out. Meryn Trant was a bad dude and needed taking out.

"Valar Dohaeris" - All Men must serve. They did not serve. They needed taking out. 

Lady Crane works with a Faceless Man, who becomes her next teacher (in WOW)......

No one else is stabby-stabby as much as Arya. 

What I'd like to see - Episode opens on the bridge on the Waif. She pulls her top layer of clothing off, and it's Arya's parkour kit. She takes that wrap off her head, and it's Arya's parkour hair. She takes off running.... PARKOUR WAIF!

Arya-faced-Waif eventually wanders into the backstage of the theatre and collapses - the actors run to her. 

Parkour Waif reaches the theatre. Before entering, she looks around, takes her face off - PARKOUR ARYA! - and goes inside. 

Dying-Arya-faced-Waif is surrounded by the actors as Parkour Arya walks up behind them, and looks down at the Dying-Arya-Faced-Waif, who looks back at her puzzled. Parkour Arya smiles. Dying-Arya-faced-Waif's face turns into a look of horror, and she dies. Richard E. Grant takes off Dead-Arya-faced-Waif's face. Jaqen steps in and introduces Arya to The Company... of Faceless Men. Her next college course, if you will. The next step of her evolution.

Arya has passed with flying colors. She will now learn the finer points of being a Faceless Man - acting. It's how she'll get back to Westeros - a group of traveling mummers, who are freaking FACELESS MEN! 

Faceless Men are making the world a better place. They assist the dying, and pained. They take out the trash. It's why "Valar Morghulis", along with Jaqen's coin, got Arya passage, a cabin, and a ton of respect from the Captain in Westeros.

I wonder how you say "Don't be a dick" in High Valeryan?

 

[House Cambodia]

^ You mean Arya was the Waif and the Waif was Arya? Jeez!

[ShadowKitteh]

5 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

^ You mean Arya was the Waif and the Waif was Arya? Jeez!

Yes.

 

[House Cambodia]

Just now, ShadowKitteh said:

Yes.

 

For me, that's too Scooby Doo, but we'll see soon enough.

[Ser Goosey]

I probably shouldn't bother posting as, even though I have read the books several times (okay, I skipped Dany POV on re-reads) and watched the episodes several times, there are so many excellent theories on how the Arya arc will continue that are more thoughtful and informed than I can ever be.  Arya is certainly one of my favorites in the books and on the show. But, I have found Arya's arc to be perplexing throughout this season.  Non-reader spouse asks me about HoB&W, and I can only give basics.  I'm not as down on D&D as a lot of folks as I think they undertook a Herculean task.  Certainly, Dorne sucked (beyond Oberyn) in KL and a lot of us were frustrated with Rozzzzz and sexposition/cock jokes. I liked some combinations of characters or at least thought fair given time constraints.  It has also simplified for the non-readers.

I can see the beauty of Arya Durden though I wasn't a fan of Fight Club.  I also can see most of the other suggestions as being pretty viable or at least a partial explanation missing key information to which we do not have access. Long story short is that Arya this season has been left with a lot of meaningless gaps....unless, D&D pull it back together in a pretty amazing way.  I'm optimistic that D&D will pull it off though I guess it would sort of be a Sixth Sense type effect: Looking back at the story to understand it only when crucial information is revealed at the end (of the season or Bravos arc).  My money is on Arya still being alive and getting back to Westeros.  Otherwise, is Arya's a story of desiring revenge, languishing in a foreign land, incompetence, and ultimately death.  Shock value has largely worn off.  Just don't see Arya dying in Bravos.   

[ARYa_Nym]

Arya can't die to be "reborn" in Nymeria on the show when Bran is the only Stark warg on the show. In addition if that was Nymeria's purpose D&D shouldn't have let the audience forget she exists.

 

Anyways, I am not worried. I do think it's bad writing and she'll be hitching a ride with the acting troupe after she kills the waif.

Maisie also said that Arya's season ends on a high note.

[The Lash]

10 hours ago, Ser Hyle said:

Good one Mr. Shyamalan. Sorry for going off topic, but I kind of liked Signs until the whole premise was completely ruined. Why would the aliens choose to colonize a planet covered mostly in water if they were deathly allergic to water?

Because they need an intelligent slave workforce and water only harms them in liquid form and the native species does not know that.

That is like saying, "Why shoot a man into space where he cannot breathe?"

I don't even remember anything about colonization either.  They very possibly could have taken some breeders and left.

Sorry.  Had to be done.

[The Lash]

If this turns out to be Arya Durden, I will lose my faith in humanity, seriously.  That would reek of desperation.

[ShadowKitteh]

3 hours ago, The Lash said:

If this turns out to be Arya Durden, I will lose my faith in humanity, seriously.  That would reek of desperation.

Agreed.

 

[Ser Hyle]

14 hours ago, The Lash said:

Because they need an intelligent slave workforce and water only harms them in liquid form and the native species does not know that.

That is like saying, "Why shoot a man into space where he cannot breathe?"

I don't even remember anything about colonization either.  They very possibly could have taken some breeders and left.

Sorry.  Had to be done.

The native species found this out pretty quickly and used it to their advantage. That's a pretty dumb super intelligent species if they didn't see that coming.

This is not like saying "why shoot a man into space where he cannot breathe?" because there is only one space. If there was an alternate space where a man could breathe, I'm sure we'd be exploring that one instead.

If we're accepting the fact there's an advanced alien species that developed without water covering their home planet and capable of intergalactic travel, then it's quite a stretch to believe potential intelligent slave workforces only exist on planets mostly covered in water.

[Lord_Weirwood]

I'm glad my registration just went through. As a reader of the first four books and casual fan of the show, I also find the last scene with Arya puzzling.

The obvious possibility, as mentioned, is that she staged her own death. [Now having seen the preview for the next episode, maybe this is the case afterall.] If so, it seems like this would be an unrealistic and utterly absurd gamble on her part. First, the pragmatic difficulties: Arya's chances of survival would be extremely slim; using blood bags would only work if the person attacking her was working with her to pull it off. In all the sparring sessions we've seen, poor Arya always ended up badly bruised and defeated, struggling to parry the waif's blows or land one herself. Thus, she could hardly hope to manipulate a surprise attack and hope to simultaneously escape alive and fool the waif into thinking she landed a killing blow (and aside from all the other variables that would have to align, such as the blade being the perfect length).

But more importantly, even if she succeeded in staging her death, would it really benefit her? If she leaves Braavos without staging her death she'll obviously have to lay low and always be on guard for FM assassins for the forseeable future. (as she will even if the FM were not hunting her). But the Faceless Men are well-connected and have agents in Westeros, however, so if she faked her death, she'll have to lay just as low anyways, as once word gets out that Arya's alive the hunt will be on again. In either case it makes little difference. I suppose a possible way out of the latter problem might involve the FM's cryptic rules regarding trading lives and dealing with failed trainees (i.e. unlike their paid hits, Arya's not a "real" priority target, and the waif will take her place on the wall of faces -- though if that's the case it doesn't seem like they'd send assassins after to Westeros if she escaped, anyways)....But unless I'm overlooking something, it makes no sense for Arya to try to deceive, outwit, or outfight the Faceless Men or the waif in one final confrontation instead of simply getting the hell away from Braavos as quickly and quietly as possible at the first opportunity.

Having somebody pose as a "fake" Arya avoids this issue, but presents other difficulties in execution. For example, Lady Crane might be kind-hearted enough to help. But even if she can magically shapeshift into Arya, would she really just go out and let herself be stabbed for a strange little girl she just met that was about to poison her? And that's aside from the fact that such machinations would be out of character for her. However clever Arya has become at surviving, her style is to impulsively attack her enemies like she did to to Meryn Trant; nothing would indicate she has the training or intellect to pull off such a machination that would deceive a secret society she's utterly failed to advance in, and that has always been two steps ahead of her.

I guess we're only a few days from finding out what really happens, but would it be too surprising if everything happened at face value and Arya really is dying?  Afterall, the writers have left scenes with such false ambiguity before, such as not showing Stannis's actual beheading during his encounter with Brienne. Maybe Arya really did royally screw up? In that case, she simply let her guard down in a moment of stupidity as she thought she had evaded the faceless men and was about to finally leave that horrible city, and now is about to die in the streets of Braavos as a result. If that happens maybe the FM will use her face to plant a fake Arya in Westeros.

[princess_snow]

1 hour ago, Lord_Weirwood said:

I'm glad my registration just went through. As a reader of the first four books and casual fan of the show, I also find the last scene with Arya puzzling.

The obvious possibility, as mentioned, is that she staged her own death. [Now having seen the preview for the next episode, maybe this is the case afterall.] If so, it seems like this would be an unrealistic and utterly absurd gamble on her part. First, the pragmatic difficulties: Arya's chances of survival would be extremely slim; using blood bags would only work if the person attacking her was working with her to pull it off. In all the sparring sessions we've seen, poor Arya always ended up badly bruised and defeated, struggling to parry the waif's blows or land one herself. Thus, she could hardly hope to manipulate a surprise attack and hope to simultaneously escape alive and fool the waif into thinking she landed a killing blow (and aside from all the other variables that would have to align, such as the blade being the perfect length).

But more importantly, even if she succeeded in staging her death, would it really benefit her? If she leaves Braavos without staging her death she'll obviously have to lay low and always be on guard for FM assassins for the forseeable future. (as she will even if the FM were not hunting her). But the Faceless Men are well-connected and have agents in Westeros, however, so if she faked her death, she'll have to lay just as low anyways, as once word gets out that Arya's alive the hunt will be on again. In either case it makes little difference. I suppose a possible way out of the latter problem might involve the FM's cryptic rules regarding trading lives and dealing with failed trainees (i.e. unlike their paid hits, Arya's not a "real" priority target, and the waif will take her place on the wall of faces -- though if that's the case it doesn't seem like they'd send assassins after to Westeros if she escaped, anyways)....But unless I'm overlooking something, it makes no sense for Arya to try to deceive, outwit, or outfight the Faceless Men or the waif in one final confrontation instead of simply getting the hell away from Braavos as quickly and quietly as possible at the first opportunity.

Having somebody pose as a "fake" Arya avoids this issue, but presents other difficulties in execution. For example, Lady Crane might be kind-hearted enough to help. But even if she can magically shapeshift into Arya, would she really just go out and let herself be stabbed for a strange little girl she just met that was about to poison her? And that's aside from the fact that such machinations would be out of character for her. However clever Arya has become at surviving, her style is to impulsively attack her enemies like she did to to Meryn Trant; nothing would indicate she has the training or intellect to pull off such a machination that would deceive a secret society she's utterly failed to advance in, and that has always been two steps ahead of her.

I guess we're only a few days from finding out what really happens, but would it be too surprising if everything happened at face value and Arya really is dying?  Afterall, the writers have left scenes with such false ambiguity before, such as not showing Stannis's actual beheading during his encounter with Brienne. Maybe Arya really did royally screw up? In that case, she simply let her guard down in a moment of stupidity as she thought she had evaded the faceless men and was about to finally leave that horrible city, and now is about to die in the streets of Braavos as a result. If that happens maybe the FM will use her face to plant a fake Arya in Westeros.

Really logical and well thought out argument, and I agree with your points. The whole arc is baffling to me - in show. As I said in another of these threads to me there seem inconsistencies in the shows story re the FM or at the very least way too much has been left unexplained, you would think as the arc is drawing to a close at least in Braaavos wed have some closure re some of the FM motives and secrets. Especially where use of faces in concerned. DO the need to cut off a face from a dead person to use it ? It seems so. Yet what was the scene last season where Arya kept pulling different faces off Jaqen ?   

[Lord_Weirwood]

Thanks! I've also felt the same way. Unless the writers are really about to unveil some brilliant twist, I find the whole arc extremely disappointing, in the same way as it would be if Theon was still stuck in Ramsay's dungeon and we only ever saw either one of them when he was being tortured by him.  Arya's involvement of the Faceless Men was interesting at the beginning. Taking a stranger's promise to become an elite assassin at face value, Arya instead becomes trapped in a sinister organization that instead wants her to lose her entire identity... But now they've just dragged it on without resolving anything. The organization doesn't even seem to make much sense. We know they claim to use assassination and death for enlightened motives, but then like any criminal organization they carry out paid hits for profit. Despite the hypocrisy, Jacquen, or whoever he is, is ruthlessly concerned that Arya give up her entire identity, but then never seems to actually indoctrinate her into their actual worldview. And why would anyone join such an organization? Not to mention other questions about their methods, such as why they would even bother with using faces, as opposed to anonymous assassins . ..But yeah, I'm also just as puzzled about that scene where she was pulling off faces

[Aemon Targaryen]

The long arc is that Arya becomes a 'true' faceless man when she kills based on justice.  The conclusion of the story arc is brilliant: it is that she becomes a faceless man just when she (and the audience) thinks she has failed and has reverted to being a Stark.  Her seemingly silly little lists were the essence of what the Faceless Men are about.

The faceless men were born as a slave revolt against tyrannical rulers; their ultimate cover is that they are 'no one' and have no purpose and are purely amoral assassins.  But I think they have a secret moral purpose.

Their preparation for killing the target is - as we have seen - to understand the context.  To grasp the whole picture of the target's life.  Only the true faceless men will be able to infer from that who ordered the death (if the person with the task does not know).

The point is that the person assigned the job must make the decision: who deserves to die: the person who ordered the target's death or the target?

If it is the target, they look like paid assassins.  If it is the person who ordered the death, no one else will know - not even the target.  Only the faceless men.

Each death is thus an act of moral judgment.

That cannot be taught.  You either have it or you do not.

The person stabbed was the actress who ordered the hit on Lady Crane, wearing an Arya mask provided by Arya. That pays for Lady Crane's non-death.

Arya manipulating the waif into killing the actress reveals to Jaqen how the waif is not a worthy faceless man but Arya is.  So Arya kills the waif and leaves with Jaqen's blessing.

This may be tinfoil, but after much puzzling, it's the first time this arc has sat at all well in my gut.

[Aemon Targaryen]

Also - as peripheral justification - Arya is also one of GRRM's favourite characters.  The Arya twist has to be a good one that GRRM ruminated over for many a year.  It will be pure GRRM, not DD.

So to say it is bad writing means that it would be an almight f*** up by GRRM.

That seems unlikely.

There has to be some satisfying overall resolution to this story line, not just twists with people wearing faces.

The only way I can see is if some version of the above is true - that Arya's deeper purpose aligns with the Faceless Men's true (and as yet unrevealed) purpose.