Bad writing or fake arya?{spoilers}

[CJDTrismegistus]

11 minutes ago, TickTak7 said:

She butchered Meryn Trant. She didn't need training for that. 

Did she improve her fighting skills? She got beat up by the Waif in that entire montage and then managed to block one attack. 

I was really hoping that the reason that she was getting owned by the Waif in every fight was because they were going to introduce the skin changing element to her story, to give her the upper hand. Hope is eternal they say!

[Tagganaro]

26 minutes ago, CJDTrismegistus said:

I was really hoping that the reason that she was getting owned by the Waif in every fight was because they were going to introduce the skin changing element to her story, to give her the upper hand. Hope is eternal they say!

Agreed.  I've been very disappointed with the show cutting out the warg/skinchanging stuff with Arya and Jon.  In general, seems like production/cost issues with the direwolves has taken precedence and the show wants to minimize their screentime as they kill them off.  Also from a story perspective, they might have wanted to leave that stuff with Bran and not introduce further magic into Jon's and Arya's storylines (which are already pretty saturated with magical stuff).

[CJDTrismegistus]

7 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

Agreed.  I've been very disappointed with the show cutting out the warg/skinchanging stuff with Arya and Jon.  In general, seems like production/cost issues with the direwolves has taken precedence and the show wants to minimize their screentime as they kill them off.  Also from a story perspective, they might have wanted to leave that stuff with Bran and not introduce further magic into Jon's and Arya's storylines (which are already pretty saturated with magical stuff).

I think it may be the production costs rather than the magical aspect. The Stark Warg Power seems to be a potent force throughout the story even for the "lesser" magical characters. Linking them in the show by having Brans other siblings display varying levels of skin changing ability only enhances the existing magical themes IMO.

I think both the Jon & Rob storylines would have been richer if they'd gone down that route. It also makes Sansa's journey without the Direwolf factor more interesting.

Without Arya's wolf dreams the show has been forced to tackle her time with the FM differently and that has caused the problems. It's just been broomstick fighting, bad broomstick fighting.

[abouththeotherknight]

ok what if the arts we saw strolling about bravos was the actress that hired the FM to kill the other actress and this is how she pays for it remember in the books whoever hired them had to pay the dearest price. Maybe she played Arya around town to test the waif and Jaquen having a soft spot and debt to Arya let her escape. Just a theory I'm not sure about all these accusations of  bad writing it must be a challenge to condense 1000 page books with a myriad of characters and story arcs

[Survivor92]

33 minutes ago, CJDTrismegistus said:

I think it may be the production costs rather than the magical aspect. The Stark Warg Power seems to be a potent force throughout the story even for the "lesser" magical characters. Linking them in the show by having Brans other siblings display varying levels of skin changing ability only enhances the existing magical themes IMO.

I think both the Jon & Rob storylines would have been richer if they'd gone down that route. It also makes Sansa's journey without the Direwolf factor more interesting.

Without Arya's wolf dreams the show has been forced to tackle her time with the FM differently and that has caused the problems. It's just been broomstick fighting, bad broomstick fighting.

Agreed. Especially Arya's wolf dreams were essential to the show, in my opinion. They could have:

• Keep the viewer more interested in Arya, because the dreams foreshadow/imply her future business in and return to Westeros
• Keep the reader updated about the Freys, so they don't forget about them. Now we are suddenly reintroduced to Walder Frey and the Red Wedding after a few seasons. Do the Unsullied even remember him? It would've been a nice introduction to Riverrun/Jaime going there as well. Viewers would be wondering: what is Nymeria and her pack going to do?
• I believe it was a mistake on D&D's part not to include Lady Stoneheart. Arya finding Catelyn's body through Nymeria plus the eventual resurrection would make for good television and keep people hooked. LSH is also essential to show that a resurrection comes at a (great) cost, although they just turned Jon into a shy coward instead of a more merciless Jon or something.
• Make people root more for the Starks. Come on, people love wolves and pet animals (Pokemon anyone?). I'd argue CGI budget is better spent on wolves than on dragons, especially since you want to keep the dragons more mysterious.

[MoonWoman]

I really think something was up with this whole scene - it was SO off, in a palpable way. The biggest clue to me that something is PURPOSELY off is how Arya is walking - hands clasped behind back, chin slightly up. Arya usually walks arms down at sides with a sense of purpose. This fake Arya or new Arya had a smug confidence which seemed in line with how the Waif typically acts. Given the next episode is titled "No One" I think we are going to find out just what is going on. Praying its not totally botched and there is truly something more going on. Typically with the show, what you see is what you get, and this was so purposely off, I feel like perhaps we are getting beat over the head with some kind of switch-a-roo type thing.

[Ser Hyle]

On 6/6/2016 at 11:38 AM, Dizzy Walker said:

I saw this too. The way her hair was, her facial expressions- not like Arya, the way she walked with her hands behind her back -not like Arya, Walking in a relaxed strolling way,  standing on a bridge way out in the open, but with no people to be witnesses, not the way a person who would have a magical assassin group after you would walk. Arya is smarter than this.

The way she threw money around,  it was a way of getting attention and get tongues waggling. Arya would have been smarter, and would have kept her head down, trying to be quiet and hush hush and secretive about her plans with the captain of the ship. 

Where did she get the money? If she had gone back to the House of Black and White she could would have a way of getting that money but Arya did not go back that we know of. No way she would sell Needle. Before the House of Black and White she was hunting pigeons for food and money and she never thought to sell it. If by some chance this was Arya and she did sell Needle, it would be horrible writing not see her make that choice and sell it. That sword was too important to her.

The way she calmly turned to the old woman with a (Not Arya) half smile on her face. Arya would be suspicious of everyone, cause everyone could be no one. And No one was going to kill her.  After she was stabbed, the way she deliberately walked through a busy market, not asking for help, just being very visible. 

 So unless she had a complete change of personality when she took Needle and gave up the house, it wasn't her.

Nice thing is, the person that it was, did set up Arya for a nice ride home. Which the Faceless men have offered in the past ( was that only in the books?). And I believe, Arya would have taken the hammock and not demanded a cabin. She has been used to roughing it while on the run with the Hound.

I have never been stabbed once let alone, multiple times with twisting motions in the stomach, so I have no real idea in this, but I do not see how someone could survive that many stab wounds, swim losing blood, get out of the water, bleeding and walk down the street losing more blood without, you know, passing out and dying? Notice once again being very visible. Why go to a busy place like that when you are badly wounded, and not ask for help?

Apologies if this was covered in the preceding 5 pages of posts.

You've done a great job of

a) identifying a number of ways this scene was horribly written, or;

b ) identifying clues as to why the Arya we saw wasn't really Arya

If it wasn't Arya, how did the Jaqen faced No One manage to wear Arya's face without taking if off her dead body - could it be a glam? I wish I had more faith in these writers to be confident there was more to that scene than what we saw, but my feeling is that Arya will be helped by the actress lady she didn't murder, miraculously recover from being stabbed deeply in the gut 3 times and falling into dirty water in a world without antibiotics, then enact her revenge on the Waif before skipping through the streets unarmed with two purses full of coin to book 1st class passage to Westeros.

[ValrianSunni]

On June 6, 2016 at 11:52 AM, lakin1013 said:

If this really was Arya who was stabbed, this was horribly written.  

One possibility - We know Arya put down the second bag of money to the ship captain in order to show she could pay for a cabin.  We know she picked up the second bag and walked away.  This is to provide motivation to the captain that he gets the 2nd bag of money at dawn, when the ship sails. 

Arya puts the bag of gold back into her jacket (doublet? jerkin?).  Maybe the deepest knife thrust went into the bag of money.  Yes, there are superficial stab wounds but the deepest was deflected by the coins.  She could live with the smaller cuts. That is all I got, if in fact it was Arya.

I think it was Arya.  It seems out of character that she would ask for a cabin.  At least out of character for the worm eating Arya of the books. I hope she doesn't die, and I don't think she will die, but I was hoping Shireen wouldn't die either.  I think Arya needs to be reunited with Nymeria. I like the idea that something prevented the Waif's knife from doing its complete damage.

And where is Needle?

[yakisikli123]

You still discussing, if fake Arya or not and complaining about bad writing, thats a joke.

I think it was Arya, but faked to be stabbed (fake stab wounds) and the blood was also fake

[ummester]

12 hours ago, Chocs said:

Except she's mentioned as one of the main 5 by the author and the people associated with the show. We don't simply follow a character for 5 seasons for a 1 minute death  scene that doesn't even make one ounce of sense. As for redemption, LOL, for what? She's not going around killing innocents. 

The same author who envisioned an ending with nothing but gravestones and has changed his mind countless times?

People followed Stannis for 5 seasons and he had a 1 minute death scene that lacked sense.

When does death ever make sense anyway? And when has this story ever relished in the death of a character that 'deserves' to die? Rather, it relishes in the death of characters that don't.

[Chocs]

Just now, ummester said:

The same author who envisioned an ending with nothing but gravestones and has changed his mind countless times?

People followed Stannis for 5 seasons and he had a 1 minute death scene that lacked sense.

When does death ever make sense anyway? And when has this story ever relished in the death of a character that 'deserves' to die? Rather, it relishes in the death of characters that don't.

No, he has always commented on knowing about the major arcs. Besides, the show has kept faithful to the 5's storylines and a cast member recently confirmed they were in on the major characters' arcs.

Arya isn't dead, you can see her jumping from a building in next episode's preview anyway.

 

 

[Cas Stark]

5 minutes ago, ummester said:

The same author who envisioned an ending with nothing but gravestones and has changed his mind countless times?

People followed Stannis for 5 seasons and he had a 1 minute death scene that lacked sense.

When does death ever make sense anyway? And when has this story ever relished in the death of a character that 'deserves' to die? Rather, it relishes in the death of characters that don't.

Arya will not die before she returns to Westeros.  The end.  

[ummester]

1 minute ago, Chocs said:

No, he has always commented on knowing about the major arcs. Besides, the show has kept faithful to the 5's storylines and a cast member recently confirmed they were in on the major characters' arcs.

Arya isn't dead, you can see her jumping from a building in next episode's preview anyway.

 

 

So it's still going to end with a love triangle between Jon, Arya and Tyrion - that will be hilarious  GRRM has lost the plot as much as the show runners have, the story has gotten away from them all.

Arya probably won't die - I think you are right on that. But that doesn't mean that having her die now wouldn't be a good thing.

[Dizzy Walker]

25 minutes ago, ValrianSunni said:

One possibility - We know Arya put down the second bag of money to the ship captain in order to show she could pay for a cabin.  We know she picked up the second bag and walked away.  This is to provide motivation to the captain that he gets the 2nd bag of money at dawn, when the ship sails.

ooohh  If it was a fake Arya that set up the cabin on the ship with the agreement of the second bag of money. Then the fake Arya had to know that the real Arya would have to be told  there was a cabin on the ship for her. And the money would have to be given to real Arya  to by the next morning. To know that or be able to do that, fake Arya would have to be really confident about being able survive an assassination attempt, or fake Arya was not working alone so that if fake Arya died, someone would pass on the info and money.  I am not sure what that would mean....maybe there were 3 people with Aryas face. Real Arya, Arya that booked the ship, and Arya that got stabbed and is dying..

Unless the whole reason for being so visible about booking the cabin was to have a false trail for (some of?) the faceless men to follow. But that doesn't prove either way that it was or wasn't the real Arya. but could it mean real Arya is not going home yet, no no no, will not believe that

56 minutes ago, Ser Hyle said:

If it wasn't Arya, how did the Jaqen faced No One manage to wear Arya's face without taking if off her dead body - could it be a glam?

maybe because she used the magic of the faceless men to wear a different face, her face now becomes available to use by other faceless men. The masks are more than really good masks, they are magic. The magic touched her face, so now the magic can use it. Part of becoming no one. the price of using this magic.  Maybe it's the people that never used this magic, that need their faces taken off to be able to have others use them.  maybe?

[ummester]

13 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Arya will not die before she returns to Westeros.  The end.  

That is so safe and predictable - exactly what is going wrong with the story now, it all feels too safe and predictable. Safe and predictable = boring.

None of us know where the story is going (I've come to the realisation that even GRRM and D&D don't fully, either), which means any possibility is still on the cards. Killing off a major character around now (and a Stark), especially after Jon came back, will make the narrative feel dangerous and unpredictable again. Killing Rickon off is neither here nor there, as he hasn't been in it that much. Why kill Sansa off when she has finally gotten interesting and looks like she is going to turn on Jon to add some meat to the story? THere is still too much to explain about Bran. Which leaves Arya. It's the most effective time in the narrative for her to die. I agree, it probably won't happen but it will be a missed opportunity if it doesn't - the overall story would be better if it did.

[Chocs]

14 minutes ago, ummester said:

Arya probably won't die - I think you are right on that. But that doesn't mean that having her die now wouldn't be a good thing.

How would that be a good thing? When the writers are in on the deaths & endgames, why would they abruptly end Arya's storyline? I mean come on! People are still trying to make sense about show-Stannis. 

[ummester]

Just now, Chocs said:

How would that be a good thing? When the writers are in on the deaths & endgames, why would they abruptly end Arya's storyline? I mean come on! People are still trying to make sense about show-Stannis. 

Read above - the story has become too predictable.

Also, there is a certain poetry to Arya dying now - a certain sadness with her all alone, like a lost soul that followed the wrong path, her death would linger longer than if she dies in the heat of of battle fighting for team Stark or something.

[Cas Stark]

9 minutes ago, ummester said:

That is so safe and predictable - exactly what is going wrong with the story now, it all feels too safe and predictable. Safe and predictable = boring.

None of us know where the story is going (I've come to the realisation that even GRRM and D&D don't fully, either), which means any possibility is still on the cards. Killing off a major character around now (and a Stark), especially after Jon came back, will make the narrative feel dangerous and unpredictable again. Killing Rickon off is neither here nor there, as he hasn't been in it that much. Why kill Sansa off when she has finally gotten interesting and looks like she is going to turn on Jon to add some meat to the story? THere is still too much to explain about Bran. Which leaves Arya. It's the most effective time in the narrative for her to die. I agree, it probably won't happen but it will be a missed opportunity if it doesn't - the overall story would be better if it did.

I can't agree with that. First, the purpose of a story is not to feel unpredictable, it's to tell a good story that makes sense and resonates with the audience.  Not being predictable is a bonus but not at the expense of randomly cutting up the narrative to be shocking....which is a trap the show has already fallen into.  And the author has fallen into a double trap there, he kills people to be shocking, but then, can't stick to it, so brings them back more and more often, LOL.

Arya is a major character.  She has not interacted with any other major character in a long, long time.  Readers and show watchers are heavily invested in her.  If she were to die in Essos, her entire story is pointless, she's like Quentyn Martell on steriods.  Everything that has happened to her will have been a waste of time.  That's not good storytelling telling IMO.

It would be akin to Dany catching the plague and dying before she gets to Westeros.  Or Cersei falling down some stairs and dying on her way to dinner.

The audience needs a payoff on the main characters, especially when they die.

[Chocs]

2 minutes ago, ummester said:

Read above - the story has become too predictable.

Also, there is a certain poetry to Arya dying now - a certain sadness with her all alone, like a lost soul that followed the wrong path, her death would linger longer than if she dies in the heat of of battle fighting for team Stark or something.

They can't simply change the endgame of characters because they're too predictable especially after all the discussions about them. I mean, I understand it's D&D but I honestly don't think they're that nuts. However, they might play around with important details of the things that affect the endgame. George has said he knows the broad strokes and D&D are in on it. 

[no_one_...]

My 2 Cents worth:

1. I don't see the Arya twisting the knife in the Waif (or going for gut shots), so I don't see the Arya being the Waif/Old Lady and Waif being Arya. The Waif had motivation to inflict a painful death, not so much the other way around given all the greater damage done to Arya by others.

2. No point of Ayra Fight Club imo. They've made a point of the Waif's motivation being of Class/Status in not approving of "Lady" Stark since she doesn't feel Arya will ever be broken to the point of not existing. One of Arya's "battles" has been finding a place for herself even before this all began.

3. For those who asked, I think the $ came from the old man the Hound killed awhile back that Arya took off him. Irrc, she sunk her clothes w/the $.

4. Given the severity of the apparent wounds, I'd be disappointed if she gets "patched up".

So, that leaves magic via FM or via Actress healing Arya (which I don't buy), or someone else is Arya on the bridge.

A. The actress hired the FM for a job and she made herself a target as payment. Since, that wasn't fulfilled she sets herself up on Arya's behalf. This isn't likely.

B. Or, FM magic where Arya drinks from the pool (or some other device) and lives(yet another rebirth this year instead of dieing theme of the year). Somehow there's a reveal to a greater purpose for revealed to Arya out of this, and more background on FM roll in current world events.