Bad writing or fake arya?{spoilers}

[14ccKemistk]

18 minutes ago, TickTak7 said:

So Arya has basically spent the last 2 seasons beating herself up with a stick? 

Come on lol. This theory is ludicrous. 

 

 

 

 

It is not, you will see. Mark my words on this.

Yet another indication of this theory is that Arya wasn't mentioned a single time in the official post show videos and just for a mere half second in the ep. 8 preview even though one of the main characters is apparantly mortally wounded. Why?

Because they don't want us to think too much about it. Which we do anyway.

And we have figured it out: A=W.

[TheKingInTheNorth3]

7 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

SO Arya risks her own life?

Could be, but it's not logical.

This is logical if you look at the bigger picture.  Does Arya "risk" her own life?  Yes, and she knows the Waif enough (her envy/hatred of Arya) that she knows she'll be stabbed in the gut to make her suffer (which Jaqen specifically said NOT to do), so it isn't a huge risk, IMHO.  Which brings me back to my second possibility of Jaqen being disguised as Arya, and using the same tactics to draw out the Waif's shortcomings, resulting in her failure in training by not finishing the job and going against his wishes of a quick death for her target.  In either scenario, the Waif is toast and we'll see Jaqen further grooming Arya with other tests/missions, perhaps, as I mentioned, having something to do with Westeros, where her arc will inevitably return.  

[JMJ]

The idea that Arya and the Waif are one in the same is ludicrous. How do we explain all the fight training between the two? And the Waif is a lightly sketched out character. Unless there is more importance to her later on, she's probably just a plot device to advance Arya's storyline.

Let's take the Chekov's Gun perspective. All the nuggets mentioned in this thread, including the focus on how faces are peeled off, Arya's odd behavior during this scene, the final scene in E6 where Arya is stealthily hiding and holding Needle, the focus on the Waif's knife stabbing and twisting, rather than a neck slash or some other lethal cut, and yes, the "parkour" jump scene, where a clearly vigorous Arya with different clothing is shown.

I think the conclusions that can be confidently made are:

1) the Arya shown in the scene was not the real Arya, either because it was Arya purposefully acting in an attention-getting way, or because it was not Arya, Arguing that this was the real Arya acting the way she did does not make any sense.

2) RE: the stab, recall that just earlier this season Roose was gut-stabbed by Ramsay, and he just quickly lay down and died. Clearly, "Arya's" wounds are not meant to be fatal by the show.

3) Has anyone asked, WHY is Arya doing a parkour in E8? Who is she running from? Is it the Waif, Jaqen, or someone else? If Jaqen, then the theory that some have proposed that Jaqen somehow did this on purpose for Arya's training then doesn't fit. Seems most likely it's the Waif she is running from. That means (a) the Waif was not wearing Arya's face and killed by either Arya or Jaqen wearing the Waif's face, as some have also proposed, and (b) clearly the Waif is not on board with a plan to just test out Arya and/or assist in additional training, unless the chase is part of the training itself.

[JMJ]

After much contemplation, I have concluded that Waif = Syrio Forel. It is known.

[TheKingInTheNorth3]

Arya = the Waif is indeed ridiculous, and I will now refer to this tinfoilness as Arya Durden

[Forlong the Fat]

11 minutes ago, TheKingInTheNorth3 said:

Arya = the Waif is indeed ridiculous, and I will now refer to this tinfoilness as Arya Durden

The plain implication of the scene in which Arya was blinded was that FM are interchangeable.  Furthermore, the person who appeared to die in the scene had Arya's face among many others.  There is certainly support for the idea that becoming "no one" entails becoming some strange conglomeration of people.  

 

[Maid So Fair]

Isn't it bad writing either way?

Either we have a main character not having learned anything from her training and then surviving anyway due to castle-wall thick plot armour

or

You have a a total fakeout that was there just to get a cheap shock out of the audience, whether it's someone else, a vision, dream or whatever. 

 

[Forlong the Fat]

5 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

Isn't it bad writing either way?

Either we have a main character not having learned anything from her training and then surviving anyway due to castle-wall thick plot armour

or

You have a a total fakeout that was there just to get a cheap shock out of the audience, whether it's someone else, a vision, dream or whatever. 

 

In other words, "I have no idea how the details will play out in any scenario but I will assume the writing is bad in either case."  

Thats about par for the course. But it kinda sounds more like a plot in the without repercussions thread. 

[Steelegrave]

On 6/6/2016 at 9:35 AM, The Dreamer Targaryen said:

 

There's definitely more than this, it just seems so out of character for her to be waking around Braavos, knowing that the FM must be so pissed because of what she did.

The next episode will hopefully explain what we're not seeing, but IMO she would never sell needle, since it represents the connection to her life as a Stark and that's what she wants to return to.

Do you forget who's writing this garbage.  There is nothing more.  They don't have the wit or subtlety for that kind of intrigue.

[Ambria]

I think the paper this plot was written on must of been waifer thin

 

[Maid So Fair]

12 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

In other words, "I have no idea how the details will play out in any scenario but I will assume the writing is bad in either case."  

Thats about par for the course. But it kinda sounds more like a plot in the without repercussions thread. 

If you have a realistic scenario I haven't mentioned, I'm all ears. 

[SerMixalot]

2 hours ago, 14ccKemistk said:

Please. There are a TON of telltale signs that things are very, very different from what they seem. This is what will happen:

After hunt and chase game in the Braavosi streets, the Waif will hunt down and kill Arya. The Waif will report back to JH that Arya Stark is now dead. Jaquen will smile and The Waif will pull off her face, revealing Arya's one behind it - finally becoming No one.

Earmark signs of this Fight Club scenario:

1. Only AS and JH ever interacts with the Waif.

2. The Waif always needs to leave the room when JH talks to AS.

3. Maise W has hinted on that she is seen on screen more that what is apparent.

Indicies:

4. Waif knows _everything_ about AS. How could she else if it wasn't the same person.

5. Waif and Arya has similar length, body form and even haircut.

Other stuff:

6. AS storyline would be almost pointless if this two season Braavos adventure only would lead her back, unchanged, to Westeros. Even longer than two seasons actually since JH was introducing hints of the FM already by the end of season 2.

7. Episode is titled "No one". Why would it if it wasn't very significant? AS becoming "No one" merely because she managed to kill the Waif would make no sense (she had just left the FM). Also, someone else becoming No one but Arya, would not make sense either.

End of story. The Waif == Arya Stark.

Cool but fails on facts.

Season 5 episode 10, Arya faces JH and Waif in room of faces.  JH and Waif talk to each other.

Oh well would have been "cool" well not but whatever

[Forlong the Fat]

2 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

If you have a realistic scenario I haven't mentioned, I'm all ears. 

I have lots of thoughts about what may happen but my thoughts are not the show. I will wait to see what actually happens before judging it. 

[SerMixalot]

2 hours ago, 14ccKemistk said:

I love it, of course. Being tricked by smart (albeit not unique) writing like this is a ton of fun. I can bet my hat on that this is the way The Waif and Arya will be played out in the books as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaW77of3gIE

start at 46 minutes. Arya Waif and JH have conversation so 3 people  in room, sorry you are wrong, well  unless D&D "forget" this scene

[SerMixalot]

To paraphrase a great western philospher

"Trying to honeypot-predict what D&D will do is a good way to make god laugh"

[SerMixalot]

BTW with regards to the difference between show and book arya stories

Book Arya story in Bravos is a temptation to forgo her identity, which she has slowly been losing since the 1st book.  She is literally given other identities to try on, skills to live a new life, opportunities both within and without the FM to start a new life-as a fish monger as a courtesan.  She does try to become No One-she kills the insurance guy IIRC, she takes on identities.  Think Odysseus on Circe's island.  There is the constant pull in each direction-toward forgoing her identity and reasserting her identity (retaining needle-and all it means to her-ie her FAMILY), warging a CAT, echoes of her father in killing the Night's Watch deserter.  She is going through a test to see who she will become-literally NOONE forgoing her Stark OR to remain a Stark-I think it obvious what her choice is.

Show Arya's arc has been rather confusing, The FM seem to not want her there.  Their training seems to consist mostly of punishment, though there has been development in a way-washing bodies, sweeping, to kills, etc.  But she is punished for lying in the lying game not for not lying well enough-which seems odd to me.  I suppose there could be a case made over a fight over her identity, though it seems mostly said instead of based on actual acts-she kills Trant but Trant is made out to be irretrievably EVIL-making her act far less questionable.  The Waif's attitude towards her is baffling as her attitude seems contrary to the stated beliefs of the FM-she is taking personally Arya's mere presence (with minimal justification) as an affront. 

[princess_snow]

2 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

This makes more sense than Arya and the Waif being the same person.

OR....

Arya is wearing two faces. The old woman's and the Waif's, while the Waif is wearing Arya's face, so it ends up Arya killed the Waif after all. 

 

This is one of the more logical explanations in this thread Ive heard yet. Very doable.

[SerMixalot]

How would a Waif wearing an Arya face draw Arya out of hiding to kill her?

[Forlong the Fat]

24 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaW77of3gIE

start at 46 minutes. Arya Waif and JH have conversation so 3 people  in room, sorry you are wrong, well  unless D&D "forget" this scene

Let's look at another scene in which those same "three people" were in a room: Arya's blinding. The three people walked into a room, one of them died, and . . . all three are still alive today. During that scene Arya discovered that the person who apparently died had lots of faces (perhaps many more than she peeled), including at least Jaqen and herself. As she clearly saw in that scene, at least her face, if not her self, was already in the person who apparently died. 

There are a few ways to understand this, I suppose. One is that "becoming no one" actually means becoming "every one" of the FM. In other words, they give up their identity and become a collection of selves. They are all like the person dead in the floor with layer after layer of identities, kind of like the one God with many faces. If that's true, the Waif and Arya both are Arya, and a lot of other people. Perhaps killing "Arya" is the final step in becoming no one. 

[SerMixalot]

5 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

Let's look at another scene in which those same "three people" were in a room: Arya's blinding. The three people walked into a room, one of them died, and . . . all three are still alive today. During that scene Arya discovered that the person who apparently died had lots of faces (perhaps many more than she peeled), including at least Jaqen and herself. As she clearly saw in that scene, at least her face, if not her self, was already in the person who apparently died. 

There are a few ways to understand this, I suppose. One is that "becoming no one" actually means becoming "every one" of the FM. In other words, they give up their identity and become a collection of selves. They are all like the person dead in the floor with layer after layer of identities, kind of like the one God with many faces. If that's true, the Waif and Arya both are Arya, and a lot of other people. Perhaps killing "Arya" is the final step in becoming no one. 

I can appreciate the essence of what you are saying, it is a pretty cool and involved concept, however I think it is far too complicated to pull off in a TV or movie.  The Fighting Club scenario presented earlier is excluded because Arya the Waif AND JH interacted together.  Therefore both the Waif AND Arya exist, the Waif is not a "creation" of Arya