Heresy 187

[Tyryan Lannister]

OT:  For those of you who play/have played World of Warcraft or associated games, just came to a conclusion--Stannis is Arthas, and is going to become the new Lich King.

[Tyryan Lannister]

2 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Tyryan - I do like that you've brought up "there must be a Stark in Winterfell" business, because it's likely the key to returning Westeros to "normal" or at least to return or repay something that the Children may feel they owe the Starks.

I've brought up Simon Toyne before a few pages back, how he's both the name of a character in the Kingswood Brotherhood and the name of an author who wrote The Sanctus, The Key, and The Tower which is a trilogy about returning Earth to the Garden of Eden which was taken and the truth hidden and manipulated by the Catholic church in a grab for power and control. I think GRRM has a similar plan in mind that the Citadel of the Andals has hidden "some truth" which will be ASoIaF's "Sanctus" which has been or will be shortly released. Westeros will normalize by returning the land to mankind's "genesis" which is the King in the North.

Yep and this truth likely will involve the Isle of Faces and the Greenmen.  There is the question though of this particular "genesis" going towards King in the North or King of Winter (possibly not a difference, but the usage of "winter" was for the older Stark kings, with King in the North being a newer-ish addition--maybe timeline wise coinciding with the arrival of the Andals? )

[Black Crow]

20 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think we will learn in future books that the Children "called" for the Targaryens to come to Westeros. Harren the Black was cutting down too many weirwood trees to build his castle, and the Andal's fanaticism was also removing heart trees from southern castles. The Targaryens were able to defeat remnants of the First Men as well as the Andals, uniting the Seven Kingdoms. The Targaryens seem like the closest to a "happy medium" compared to the First Men who perhaps abused magic at one end of the spectrum with the Andals who actively tried to eliminate magic at the other end.

Really don't see that one. Apart from Harren, who was a law unto himself most of that sort of stuff was well out of the way and the tree-huggers and the other old races fled beyond the Wall.. Added to which of course the Targaryens and their dragons are too close to fire. Harren and his sons didn't freeze to death

[Black Crow]

12 minutes ago, Tyryan Lannister said:

Yep and this truth likely will involve the Isle of Faces and the Greenmen.  There is the question though of this particular "genesis" going towards King in the North or King of Winter (possibly not a difference, but the usage of "winter" was for the older Stark kings, with King in the North being a newer-ish addition--maybe timeline wise coinciding with the arrival of the Andals? )

Well that of course is one of the old questions. Did they stop becoming Kings of Winter when the Nights King was overthrown? Possibly although Bran doesn't offer such a connection and rather more importantly Jon and Sansa were both offered the snowflake communion, which has to be significant in that regard. Sansa took the communion and stopped being a victim. Jon was twice [?] offered and then went face down in the snow. Somehow I think both are going to be "different" as a result but I would suggest that having dominion over Winter might mean being able to bridle rather than lead the white walkers and whatever else is out there. 

[Tucu]

58 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I suppose I'll just have to chalk this up to a disagreement in interpretation. I don't believe that fire and ice in and of themselves have intent, or are naturally at war with one another, nor do I believe that there's any Great Other or R'hllor equivalent. In my view, there's magic, and there's the superstition that men apply to that magic.

To revisit the Mel example, I don't believe it's inevitable that "Fire" must wage some eternal war on the Others, or the CotF, or w/e--the war doesn't exist because the cosmos demands it, it exists because humans like Melisandre believe it exists, and fuel the war through that act of fanaticism. We could cite the Reed's oath, as well as comments like "the land is one" for the opposite view.

Since the army of fire is the only side we have insight into, I would say the core story there is still the same as the one that's fueling the political story: "Bow to me because I'm Azor Ahai" is not so far off from "bow to me, because I'm sitting the Iron Throne." Dany, Benerro, Euron, etc. all still have fundamentally political goals, even if magic is the medium they're using to achieve those goals.

I didn't say that the confrontation was inevitable, but that it has already happened, witnessed and named by the weirwoods (thus it being a song).

We will need to wait to learn who/what is behind the build up of the armies of ice and fire. That old synopsis for the Winds of Winter mentions the hearts of ice and fire and Winterfell as key places for the finale. By then the Iron Throne will probably not matter anymore.

[LordImp]

I agree that the song of ice and fire are the most important thing in the series . But still the Iron throne is also one of the most important things. Almost everything is about sitting on the throne or controll whoever sits there. While the ice and fire becomes more important i expect the Iron throne to be central until the end of the series . 

[Melifeather]

35 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Really don't see that one. Apart from Harren, who was a law unto himself most of that sort of stuff was well out of the way and the tree-huggers and the other old races fled beyond the Wall.. Added to which of course the Targaryens and their dragons are too close to fire. Harren and his sons didn't freeze to death

I wasn't trying to align the sides with ice and fire, but now that you mention it the Andals should have been the happy medium, because they don't practice either ice nor fire as they have their own religion yet the Targaryen's fire was needed to temper them regardless.

 

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

We will need to wait to learn who/what is behind the build up of the armies of ice and fire. That old synopsis for the Winds of Winter mentions the hearts of ice and fire and Winterfell as key places for the finale. By then the Iron Throne will probably not matter anymore.

Not quite, the finale was supposed to be a big battle at Winterfell.

The journeys were merely a precursor and I've argued before and still argue that Bran's long journey into Conrad's Heart of Darkness was the desperate journey into the heart of Ice. If so then Tyrion's odyssey to Meereen may turn out to be the journey into the heart of Fire - where the dragons come from

[Tucu]

31 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Not quite, the finale was supposed to be a big battle at Winterfell.

The journeys were merely a precursor and I've argued before and still argue that Bran's long journey into Conrad's Heart of Darkness was the desperate journey into the heart of Ice. If so then Tyrion's odyssey to Meereen may turn out to be the journey into the heart of Fire - where the dragons come from

But Bran has not reached the Heart of Winter yet (or it looks very different from the vision in the first book). If Bran and Tyrion are the ones doing the journeys, I would expect them to continue further North and East during the next book.

[Tyryan Lannister]

5 minutes ago, Tucu said:

But Bran has not reached the Heart of Winter yet (or it looks very different from the vision in the first book). If Bran and Tyrion are the ones doing the journeys, I would expect them to continue further North and East during the next book.

Bran going north, sure.  But if we're equating Heart of Fire with birthplace of dragons, then Tyrion needs to head back westward, into the ruins of Valyria and the Fourtain Flames

[Tucu]

1 minute ago, Tyryan Lannister said:

Bran going north, sure.  But if we're equating Heart of Fire with birthplace of dragons, then Tyrion needs to head back westward, into the ruins of Valyria and the Fourtain Flames

Or to "Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise". Part of the same vision were Bran saw the Heart of Winter.

[Melifeather]

10 minutes ago, Tucu said:

But Bran has not reached the Heart of Winter yet (or it looks very different from the vision in the first book). If Bran and Tyrion are the ones doing the journeys, I would expect them to continue further North and East during the next book.

I'm wondering if the "heart of winter" isn't a literal place, but rather the origin of the source as in the "heart of the matter"? The mummer's version has the Children telling Bran that they were the ones that created white walkers to fight against mankind, so in essence the "heart of winter" is the knowledge that the source is the Children that created it, and it exacted the sacrifice of many, many greenseers.

[Black Crow]

33 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I'm wondering if the "heart of winter" isn't a literal place, but rather the origin of the source as in the "heart of the matter"? The mummer's version has the Children telling Bran that they were the ones that created white walkers to fight against mankind, so in essence the "heart of winter" is the knowledge that the source is the Children that created it, and it exacted the sacrifice of many, many greenseers.

Exactly so which is why I'm equating the cave of skulls with the Heart of Darkness. I'd also point out in this context that in Bran's first vision, the three-eyed-crow is trying to encourage him to fly, to become a greenseer and below him he sees his fellow dreamers, those who failed to make the grade not impaled on weirwood branches or otherwise scattered around the cave, but impaled on spires of Ice.

[Tucu]

I will be dissapointed if the Heart of Winter is just a dying greenseer and 6 CotF.

[Black Crow]

57 minutes ago, Tucu said:

But Bran has not reached the Heart of Winter yet (or it looks very different from the vision in the first book). If Bran and Tyrion are the ones doing the journeys, I would expect them to continue further North and East during the next book.

I always rather imagined that what made Bran cry out in fear wasn't serried ranks of icy warriors blowing the snow off their weapons and armour, but a vision of the future he must try to avert

[Tyryan Lannister]

Ok, so, part of the reason I came back is because I decided to read the series again.

And from AGoT, Cat I:

"Every noble house had its words.  Family mottoes, touchstones, prayers of sorts, they boasted of honor and glory, promised loyalty and truth, swore faith and courage.  All but the Starks.  Winter is coming, said the Stark words."

What if she's wrong?  She (like almost everyone, both in book and in the real world--and in That Thing Which Must Not Be Named), takes it to be a warning about the coming winter.  But what if that's not it.  What if it actually does go in line with the other house words.  What if, instead of a seeming inconsequential warning about a seasonal occurrence, it is instead a warning of the House to all others:

Don't mess with the Starks, don't mess with Winterfell, cause if you do, then Winter is Coming.

It gives a different light when put into context of the various times the Stark in Winterfell has had to go out and take down its enemies (e.g. the Greystarks, the Night's King, the slavers at White Harbor, the various conflicts with the the wildlings, the conflicts with the Boltons, etc.).

 

It also plays into the Iron Throne conversations.  First, alone of the combatants during the War of Five Kings, the North was never seeking the Iron Throne, instead looking to get rid of it as overlord (in a sense similar to UK and the EU vote?).  So, in this context, again, Joffrey and Cersei enacted measures against the ruling Stark of Winterfell, so Winter Came.  Second, Aegon wasn't able to solidify his position as High King until he had the North; another way to say that, is that the Iron Throne was not created until the North was a part of the alliance.  So the Iron Throne might be symbolic of a unified Westeros--but as long as the North remains divided, as long as the Starks are not in Winterfell, as long as Winter is still Coming, the Iron Throne will not be secure.  And, from where I'm standing, I don't see the North joining up with the rest of them anytime soon.  As such, anyone who is still centered around controlling the Iron Throne is doomed to failure, for they will never be able to reunify Westeros, and it is only in a unified Westeros that the Iron Throne can endure.

[LordImp]

The journey into the heart of fire might be Dany realizing that she is fire and blood or maybe Tyrion discovering who he really is or Jon. Though i like the idea of literal hearts and i have always liked the idea that Dany will fly into the heart of winter sacrificing herself. 

[Tucu]

6 minutes ago, LordImp said:

The journey into the heart of fire might be Dany realizing that she is fire and blood or maybe Tyrion discovering who he really is or Jon. Though i like the idea of literal hearts and i have always liked the idea that Dany will fly into the heart of winter sacrificing herself. 

My bet is on Tyrion based on Moqorro's vision: "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of it all"

[Matthew.]

4 hours ago, Tyryan Lannister said:

While discussing importance of the Iron Throne, I feel we would be amiss if we didn't also address the whole "must be a Stark in Winterfell" thing, particularly since we don't know what it actually means, nor do you know the origin or implications of not following through on it are.

I have this hunch that the mere existence of the Iron Throne and what it symbolizes (a non-Stark ruling Westeros/the North) is in conflict with whatever is going on with the "Stark in Winterfell" conundrum, i.e. the magical forces could be the final culmination in the conflict set in motion either when Torrhen knelt or when Aerys killed the Ruling Stark*.

In addition to the things you've listed, other potentially significant events that may have prompted the Others' return could be Howland Reed's winter spent on the Isle of Faces, the birth of Dany, and House Stark's current dire straits.

The latter, as a matter of timing, assumes some "foresight" on the part of whatever it is that drives the Others, but I've often wondered whether or not the Others are preparing an army that is meant to eventually fall under the control of either Bran or Jon. For this interpretation, I'm also being mindful of the fact that an alternate title GRRM was considering for ADOS was "A Time for Wolves," which has an almost ominous ring to it.

If you're interested in some weirder crackpot about the return of the Others, I believe Voice has characterized the duel between Eddard and Arthur Dayne - as presented on the show - as quite literally being a Battle for (the) Dawn; the Sword of the Morning was killed by a Lord of Winterfell (rightful King of Winter?), his sword taken, and his own blood spilled upon it. Maybe there's something there, and maybe there isn't, but I thought it was a neat observation.

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, LordImp said:

But still the Iron throne is also one of the most important things. Almost everything is about sitting on the throne or controll whoever sits there.

Unless GRRM is going to really pick up the pace in WoW, I can't imagine that Dany's invasion begins until ADOS--in that case, the IT seems likely to remain a part of the story for at least the first third or more of ADOS, and may even remain so straight until the end, depending on whether or not Dany is to be played as villainous.

 

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

But Bran has not reached the Heart of Winter yet (or it looks very different from the vision in the first book). If Bran and Tyrion are the ones doing the journeys, I would expect them to continue further North and East during the next book.

For what it's worth, the show's synopsis for The Door confirms that the weirwood we see as the center of the ceremony for creating the WWs is the same place Bran views in his encounter with the NK: now as a ruined, frozen wasteland. Some people theorize that the heart tree used for the ceremony is the Heart(tree) of Winter.