Heresy 187

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

The Iron Throne will probably be a minor legend in the brave new world. No different that the legend of the First King or other pre-Long Night heroes.

That's how I see it. While the conflict for the Iron Throne may be what has kicked off this mess it has been or is in the process of being overtaken by the far more important conflict between Ice and Fire. Its the latter, the battle for life itself, which is going to be important in the end as old feuds and enmities are laid aside and the throne recognised for the vanity it is. 

[Matthew.]

2 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

That's how I see it. While the conflict for the Iron Throne may be what has kicked off this mess it has been or is in the process of being overtaken by the far more important conflict between Ice and Fire. Its the latter, the battle for life itself, which is going to be important in the end as old feuds and enmities are laid aside and the throne recognised for the vanity it is. 

This is not incompatible with the discussions that were being raised on previous pages. Recognizing the pursuit of the throne as an end unto itself as something disasterous still ties it into the overall themes and conflicts being setup for the final arc. Possibly, this is even visually represnted by the show's version of the HoTU, where Dany briefly reaches forward to touch the IT, only to turn away and instead find herself on the north side of the Wall--a more important 'destination' than the IT.

It's also relevant to the topic Rodx wanted to raise, which is the possibility of a "villainous" character sitting the IT at the end, which I think is at least one scenario with fair plausibility; setting aside the desire for power in pursuit of something greater might necessarily mean that a more self serving character will win the IT.

And, of course, it's still not entirely clear what motivates the Others, nor why they have returned at this particular time. If this is a battle for life, then the Others really are nothing more than the evil ice orcs of the story, regardless of whether or not there's a "dark lord" looming behind them; on the other hand, if they're back because of something related to the events of Robert's Rebellion, or because someone saw the shadows of what was coming and determined that House Stark would have need of an army, then they may not be as disconnected from the political story as it seems.

[Matthew.]

Incidentally, if you wanted to track down The Fattest Leech's Balitcon report on these forums, her report shows that GRRM actually did touch a bit on both the ending and the leaked 1993 letter.

GRRM was, as might be imagined, furious about the lack of professionalism that lead to it being pictured and leaked, but he also admitted that he's bad at writing outlines, and that he's often just "making shit up" for the outlines, acknowledging the changes that the story and characters have undergone along the way. Nonetheless, he says he knows the endings of the "main characters" and who will sit the Iron Throne at the end...but that's the bare minimum one might hope for out of a series he's been working on for 20+ years.

[Black Crow]

6 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Incidentally, if you wanted to track down The Fattest Leech's Balitcon report on these forums, her report shows that GRRM actually did touch a bit on both the ending and the leaked 1993 letter.

GRRM was, as might be imagined, furious about the lack of professionalism that lead to it being pictured and leaked, but he also admitted that he's bad at writing outlines, and that he's often just "making shit up" for the outlines, acknowledging the changes that the story and characters have undergone along the way. Nonetheless, he says he knows the endings of the "main characters" and who will sit the Iron Throne at the end...but that's the bare minimum one might hope for out of a series he's been working on for 20+ years.

As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, have some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle [sic] characters in the drama. [GRRM 1993]

[Black Crow]

13 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

And, of course, it's still not entirely clear what motivates the Others, nor why they have returned at this particular time. If this is a battle for life, then the Others really are nothing more than the evil ice orcs of the story, regardless of whether or not there's a "dark lord" looming behind them; on the other hand, if they're back because of something related to the events of Robert's Rebellion, or because someone saw the shadows of what was coming and determined that House Stark would have need of an army, then they may not be as disconnected from the political story as it seems.

Its not, but I've suggested before that a useful parallel might be with Tolkein's Nazgul and that they are coming back to reclaim what was once their own. We see hints of this in their portrayal in the mummers' version, but more important I think is how this would fit in with the motivations and entitlement of so many of the other characters and factions.

Whether there is closer connection to those factions or rather the conflicts remains to be seen, but its worth remembering that conversation between Rugen/Varys and Illyrio below the Red Keep, where they talked of the war to come. I don't believe that they intentionally woke the blue-eyed lot, but if the dragon eggs were always intended to be more than trinkets then there may have been something that rang alarm bells up north.

[Matthew.]

46 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, have some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle [sic] characters in the drama. [GRRM 1993]

I'm not unaware of his philosophy, but since he was specifically addressing the leaked outline at Balticon, it puts things into perspective; the 1993 letter is not a roadmap, and since his comments at Balticon are the more recent ones we have to draw upon, we might correctly assume that any number of character and plot ideas could have transformed dramatically (edit: also, that the 1993 letter potentially contains some "made up shit" for the sake of having something more substantial to pitch). And, of course, even in that obsolete vision, it's clear that the IT is one of the things that is of central importance to the story, along with the character journeys of the Starks, the Lannisters, and the Targaryen(s).

[Black Crow]

I'm not offering this as a counter-argument to his Balticon comments but rather as confirmation of them.

Nevertheless, I still hold that while the Iron Throne provided a focus at the outset of the story, it is being overtaken by events and is a distraction from the real conflict rather its ultimate purpose. Its the Song of Ice and Fire not the Song of Iron.

[Muttering Ed]

On 6/26/2016 at 4:29 AM, Black Crow said:

 

Welcome to Heresy

A good point and true and another reason not to tie ourselves in knots trying to find a mystical reason for the Ironborn name

Thank you. I'm a long time lurker (loiterer, more like). I'm just happy to be here and want to do what I can to help the team. 

I agree about the tying of knots. I'm not much for the tinfoilery. There are enough amazing things that The George has done with his real-life influences (real-life mythos if that makes sense) that I don't think we need to invent more just 'cos we're bored. I'm of the opinion that many of the mysteries we perceive can be explained by real human behavior and don't require mystical explanations. Oh I'm sure there are a few since this is a fantasy series, and that's half the fun - figuring out what is humans being fallible humans versus what really is beyond our experience on earth.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Muttering Ed said:

Thank you. I'm a long time lurker (loiterer, more like). I'm just happy to be here and want to do what I can to help the team. 

I agree about the tying of knots. I'm not much for the tinfoilery. There are enough amazing things that The George has done with his real-life influences (real-life mythos if that makes sense) that I don't think we need to invent more just 'cos we're bored. I'm of the opinion that many of the mysteries we perceive can be explained by real human behavior and don't require mystical explanations. Oh I'm sure there are a few since this is a fantasy series, and that's half the fun - figuring out what is humans being fallible humans versus what really is beyond our experience on earth.

Which again is why I'm wary of greenseers under the bed and some of the other magical theories doing the rounds. The story is about very fallible humans, some of whom are using magic and thereby storing up trouble, but that's a long way from everything being manipulated by unseen hands and forces.

[Matthew.]

12 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Nevertheless, I still hold that while the Iron Throne provided a focus at the outset of the story, it is being overtaken by events and is a distraction from the real conflict rather its ultimate purpose.

"The real conflict" seems a flawed premise: it is one of many conflicts. The scope of these books is larger than the Others. When 5 of 7 books (and likely, much of 6) prominently feature the game of thrones as a central theme, does this somehow mean that this conflict is "less real" just because a different war might feature more prominently in the final book, or have elevated stakes?

Even then, I must reiterate that it's not a given that the IT is insignificant to the final conflict, since we don't know if the actual final conflict will be the generic fantasy clash that it seems to be, or if the return of the Others is tied to human ambition in unforeseen ways. I'll also reiterate that the context of the discussion was the ending, not the climax; with a series of this scale, one might assume that the denouement could stretch on for multiple chapters, and feature many locations, characters, and events--including the "fate" of the IT.

Finally, assuming the IT even exists as a concept at the end, it's worth questioning whether it's a thing that will be 'earned' by the resolution of the climax, or whether it will be leveraged to re-unify the realm and prepare it for the climax.

[Black Crow]

Its one of the conflicts and an important one, but the story isn't going to be defined by who is sitting on it in the end gazing out on a shattered realm.

[Tucu]

I have a feeling that there will not be enough survivors to justify a unified kingdom. The food situation is already bad everywhere but in the Reach and the Vale. And now we have Euron's forces pillaging the Reach, a new Dance of Dragons, a terrible Winter, the fall of Kings Landing, the Dothraki horde arriving and the Others invasion.

[Black Crow]

 

7 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I have a feeling that there will not be enough survivors to justify a unified kingdom. The food situation is already bad everywhere but in the Reach and the Vale. And now we have Euron's forces pillaging the Reach, a new Dance of Dragons, a terrible Winter, the fall of Kings Landing, the Dothraki horde arriving and the Others invasion.

Indeed, I'd like to revise my previous statement slightly to say that what may be important abut the Iron Throne in the end may not be the winning of it but the destroying of it. As the late Greatjon Umber declared "it was the dragons we married"; the Seven Kingdoms became one only because Aegon and his dragons imposed the Pax Targaryena upon them. Perhaps what Westeros needs is for that bridle of Fire and iron to be lifted from it.

[Matthew.]

19 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Its one of the conflicts and an important one, but the story isn't going to be defined by who is sitting on it in the end gazing out on a shattered realm.

Nobody said the story would be defined by it.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Heresy 187 huh

 

Guess it's time I came back

 

 

EDIT: 

 

[Clueless Northman]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

 As the late Greatjon Umber declared "it was the dragons we married"; the Seven Kingdoms became one only because Aegon and his dragons imposed the Pax Targaryena upon them. Perhaps what Westeros needs is for that bridle of Fire and iron to be lifted from it.

Would be like history then. There are times vast regions get united into massive empires, and after a time, those dissolve into smaller components. India, bulk of Europe, Middle-East and even China are classic examples.
Same for vast parts of Essos actually. Valyria, then crumbling, then most taken over by the Dothraki, who will eventually make way for something else. Farther East into Essos, you had huger empires once.

[Melifeather]

36 minutes ago, Tyryan Lannister said:

Heresy 187 huh

 

Guess it's time I came back

As I live and breathe! Tyryan! I haven't seen you around here since my avatar was Melisandra! Howdy stranger!

[Tyryan Lannister]

Couldn't it be that Iron Throne is a central plot element, not in and of itself, but rather because it is entwined with the overall conflict?

Two things to consider:

1) the Iron Throne is ultimately the product of Fire.  It was created by dragon's fire--the ultimate embodiment of powers of the side of Fire--from the swords that previously belonged to now deceased or conquered lords who were brought into submission by those very same dragons.

2) More so than anything else, the Iron Throne represents the culmination of millennia of warfare which led to a Conquest of Westeros.  This Conquest was not only one of a particular group of people lording it over others, but also one of Man conquering Nature, and, in doing so, bringing Fire into the fore.

 

The Iron Throne is central not just because it has been the center piece for five published, and at least one to be published, books, but also because it's very existence poses a threat to Balance.  This Balance has long been lacking from Westeros; this Balance is inherent in the Old Oath, as given by Jojen and Meera to Bran ("I swear it by earth and water. I swear it by bronze and iron.  We swear it by ice and fire.") and the World is finally trying to find its new equilibrium.

[Black Crow]

6 hours ago, Tyryan Lannister said:

Heresy 187 huh

 

Guess it's time I came back

 

 

EDIT: 

 

Damn right it is. Welcome back old friend. 

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Tyryan Lannister said:

Couldn't it be that Iron Throne is a central plot element, not in and of itself, but rather because it is entwined with the overall conflict?

Two things to consider:

1) the Iron Throne is ultimately the product of Fire.  It was created by dragon's fire--the ultimate embodiment of powers of the side of Fire--from the swords that previously belonged to now deceased or conquered lords who were brought into submission by those very same dragons.

2) More so than anything else, the Iron Throne represents the culmination of millennia of warfare which led to a Conquest of Westeros.  This Conquest was not only one of a particular group of people lording it over others, but also one of Man conquering Nature, and, in doing so, bringing Fire into the fore.

 

The Iron Throne is central not just because it has been the center piece for five published, and at least one to be published, books, but also because it's very existence poses a threat to Balance.  This Balance has long been lacking from Westeros; this Balance is inherent in the Old Oath, as given by Jojen and Meera to Bran ("I swear it by earth and water. I swear it by bronze and iron.  We swear it by ice and fire.") and the World is finally trying to find its new equilibrium.

Hence my comment above about why this may [should?] come down in the end to the destroying of the Iron Throne rather than squabbling to see who gets to sit on it in the last chapter.