Meera of Tarth

[Book Spoilers] Jaime & Brienne- What's going on?

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It would be interesting to discuss Jaime and Brienne's present and future after last episode: "No one".

They met after one season and a half since their last goodbye scene.

-Brienne looks at Jaime from a hill, in Riverrun. That scene mirrors that from Jaime in Season 5 when he sees Sapphire Island for the first time, and reminds him of Brienne.

-Before Jaime talks to Brienne, Bronn is making jokes about Jaime and Brienne having a sexual intercourse inside the tent. And notices "the way she looks at him."

-Then when they are talking Jaime's character resembles a little the one who was redeemed after his trip with Brienne. Of course, it's not the same at all, since his book counterpart is at a whole different level at this point of the story in regards his relationship with Cersei, but he is not as arrogant as I supposed he would be and I think the reason of that is that when he is with Brienne he changes.

-Brienne makes a good point talking about him being a knight and having honour, and I think that he uncounsciously keeps that information for himself, but the show character is not stillprepared to change again: "I'm a Lannister", he says. There is also the point when she wants to give Oathkeeper back to Jaime, and he refuses, saying it's hers. That particular scene has only this meaning in the show, don't think it would happen in the books, but considering the changes, I think it emphasizes that Jaime is different when he is with Brienne: it mirrors their scene in S4.

-At the end of the conversation, Brienne reminds him that she might have not choice but to fight him, if she fails persuading the BF. And he swallows saliva and tells her that he hopes it doesn't happen.

-After that he has a conversation with Edmure in which he reminds him of honour several times again, but this time Jaime's words are more harsh and emphasize again his "love" for Cersei, being the one who matters, and he does all that for her, the opposite thing that in the books.

-When Jaime takes Riverrun, I' confused because it's not exactly in pacific terms, but I'd say (tell me I'm so positive) that Jaime is not involved in the killing of the BF (actually a little battle) and some remaining Tullys. I'm not so sure what he would have done to the BF, possibly killed him (or not?), but it's interesting he doesn't have that choice: they tell him he is already dead and that he died fighting for his house. Jaime seems not to take about it, being proud...but then he sees Brienne again, and they "say" goodbye again, mirroring the scene from S4, but with a more bittersweet tone, especially considering his words to Edmure, and his confession to Edmure of his unconditional  and sick love for Cersei.

 

-So, what are your thoughts about these scenes? Do you think Jaime will reedem again and become "some sort" of the Jaime of the books?

-Do you think it's the end for Jaime and Brienne, or just a step forward, considering their scenes together, the gazes and "Bronn's foreshadowing"? -compared to his arc this season?

-Will he come apart from Cersei's  or not at some point of the remaining episodes?

-Considering what has happened to Cersei (not trial by combat), will we have the "burning letter" scene or maybe a new version of it (maybe Jaime saving her)?

-Will Brienne's or Edmure's words (or BFs sacrifice) have an impact on Jaime's future?

I'm a bit skeptical of Jaime changing, and very disappointed with the "obsessed about Cersei" version from this season, but I found a glimpse of hope in some of the scenes, to him becoming , at least, better than he is at the moment, (don't know if he will be able to become the same person as he is in the books at the end of aDwD, but who knows!!!) and maybe changing his unhealthy love for Cersei to one more pure for Brienne.....

I'd like to share my thoughts and read yours about this arc in Riverrun and especially  Brienne's meeting.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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I have a feeling that on the show Jaime will be more sad than upset when he heres that King's Landing has exploded with Wildfire. He'll probably blame himself and the faith militant for Cersei if she does goes full Aerys for not seeing it or stopping her and mourn her loss.

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8 minutes ago, Ruhail said:

I have a feeling that on the show Jaime will be more sad than upset when he heres that King's Landing has exploded with Wildfire. He'll probably blame himself and the faith militant for Cersei if she does goes full Aerys for not seeing it or stopping her and mourn her loss.

But do you think Cersei will make wildfire? I mean, there's been a lot of foreshadowing, but the same for LSh to appear,

If that happens there will be no KG. That would fit the story because next season they are looking for different locations (castles) but they also said t they wanted to do a big scene inside the Throne Room but instead moved that to the streets. If it burns, then there is no Thrones Room, or it will be half destroyed.

Anyway, do you think Cersei will write to Jaime?

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7 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

But do you think Cersei will make wildfire? I mean, there's been a lot of foreshadowing, but the same for LSh to appear,

If that happens there will be no KG. That would fit the story because next season they are looking for different locations (castles) but they also said t they wanted to do a big scene inside the Throne Room but instead moved that to the streets. If it burns, then there is no Thrones Room, or it will be half destroyed.

Anyway, do you think Cersei will write to Jaime?

Yeah I personally think Cersei is going Full Wildfire. This is something different to Lsh they've been telegraphing it very obviously yes however, this is a character that they like and think is misunderstood in their eyes and probably "desrves" revenge for her oppression.

I do not believe they will have her write a letter because she has Qyburn and Ser Robert Strong to do her bidding and she isnt locked up.

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My interpretation is that they seem to want more to happen with these two (Jaime/Brienne) yet, just not in the very near future, but in the meantime, still wavering as to the minutiae of their story, together and apart, the parabolic trajectory they might soon follow...

Might be next time they meet, they'll be in a somewhat better position to hold forth. It's the rule of three, I doubt another meet-up in time will be quite divested of some form of declaration of feelings, granted that any motion submitted until then is bound to come off as strictly editorial...

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20 minutes ago, Étoile du Soir said:

My interpretation is that they seem to want more to happen with these two (Jaime/Brienne) yet, just not in the very near future, but in the meantime, still wavering as to the minutiae of their story, together and apart, the parabolic trajectory they might soon follow...

Might be next time they meet, they'll be in a somewhat better position to hold forth. It's the rule of three, I doubt another meet-up in time will be quite divested of some form of declaration of feelings, granted that any motion submitted until then is bound to come off as strictly editorial...

but with the very few episodes left......there seems not a lot of time if something has to happen and Cersei is still there in Jaime's "heart".

It took 15 episodes to meet again and only the Tartg Gaze and Brienne's gaze in Riverrun.

It was very cold, but considering the regression that has happened during those episodes nothing else would have worked.

But are we supposed to believe that Jaime is still a Lannister 100%? Are any of Brienne's or Edmure's words going to have an effect on him? Or else, what would be?

Yes, I'm talking only about the show. Books are a different universe. Their meeting is different because of what has happened meantime in their minds is totally different.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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An interesting excerpt of an interview to Nikolaj Coster-Waldau:

Let’s talk about that great Episode 8 scene between Jaime and Brienne.

What I love about it is the buildup. Just before we cut into the scene, we have Bronn outside the tent with Pod, and he says, “Well, what do you think? Do you think they’re fucking? I think they’re fucking. I know he wants to fuck her, I know she wants to fuck him, so what do you think?” And then it cuts back in and you see this very respectful way of discussing politics. It’s a negotiation with a very clear subtext of two people who have very strong feelings for each other, but are caught in a situation that’s just beyond them. Their jobs overshadow everything else. There’s no room for the private Jaime and Brienne—they’re on a mission.

 

The end of the scene is lovely, too, where Brienne pauses to return Oathkeeper to Jaime and he tells her to keep it.

She fulfilled her oath and the job was done, and she hands it to him and he says, “It’s yours—it will always be yours,” and it’s his way of saying, “You’ll have my heart—you’ll always have it.” It’s so sweet, and then a second later she says that if the shit hits the fan, she’s going to have to fight him, and we all know that means she’s going to kill him because he doesn’t stand a chance against her. I just love that because clearly they don’t want that result to happen, but they’re so caught up in being very, very loyal, honorable people to whatever cause they’re fighting for. For her, it’s being loyal to the Stark Family, and for him, it’s to the Lannisters.

SUBSCRIBE
 

It seems that Brienne’s morality, conscience, and sense of honor and duty rubbed off on Jaime during their time on the road.

I think he’s always been loyal, but he’s been loyal to his family and the people he loves. When he broke the oath and slayed the Mad King, I think it broke something in him because he’d never do that. He went very far and tried desperately not to get to that point.

Although Jaime has been breakin’ the rules with Cersei the entire time. 

[Laughs] Yeah, that’s true. But love changes everything. He’s the Kingsguard, but he never promised not to sleep with his Queen! I don’t think that’s stated in the Kingsguard manual. They left that one out. They should probably put that in there, but for some reason it never crossed their mind. It should be an amendment to the Kingsguard manual: “Don’t fuck the Queen.”

Do you think that there is a romantic connection between Jaime and Brienne?

I think there are strong emotions. There’s love there. I think it’s one of the purest forms of love that Jaime’s experienced. The fact that he risks his life to save her from the bear attack, as well as when he stops the rape of her—and loses his hand because of that—is powerful. In the bathtub scene, he opened up to her and told her things he hadn’t told anyone, including the truth of why he killed the Mad King and the enormity of that trauma. For her to embrace him after that was, as I see it, an act of love.

 

Is it their collective shame that brings them together, too? Brienne gave that beautiful speech about being mocked as a child at dances for her appearance, and Jaime has lived his life as the subject of ridicule for everything from his Kingslayer rep to the incest whispers.

You’re right there. That’s the beauty of the whole partnership when it starts out—they despise each other because they see parts of themselves in each other. But as time passed, they realized that they have so much in common because they’re both outsiders, soldiers, and strongly believe in loyalty.

She’s also one of the only ones that sees the honor within Jaime.

Right. And she’s the only one—apart from his sister and brother—who calls him Jaime and not “Kingslayer.” She sees him as a human being.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/14/game-of-thrones-star-nikolaj-coster-waldau-on-jaime-s-purest-love-for-brienne-and-male-nudity.html

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

An interesting excerpt of an interview to Nikolaj Coster-Waldau:

snip

Wow, that was rough.

I think what it shows is that they are basically aware of what the dynamic between them ought to be and are trying to get them there despite the fact that they've written themselves into such a god awful mess.

Maybe sometime after the King's Landing Barb-B-Crew Jaime will do a character 180 towards his book character.

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10 hours ago, thehandwipes said:

Wow, that was rough.

I think what it shows is that they are basically aware of what the dynamic between them ought to be and are trying to get them there despite the fact that they've written themselves into such a god awful mess.

Maybe sometime after the King's Landing Barb-B-Crew Jaime will do a character 180 towards his book character.

yes and I also read somewhwre that the showrunners explicitely told that they are awae of their story.

and that Bronn's jokes were there for a purpose.

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58 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

yes and I also read somewhwre that the showrunners explicitely told that they are awae of their story.

and that Bronn's jokes were there for a purpose.

What bothers me a lot is that they all go all the way and straight out blurt the L word, but at the same time aren't setting up anything between the two ? Do they intend to or do they feel like saying "they love each other but they'd never act on it" seals the deal ? Is that it ? Are they ever going to see each other again ?

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7 hours ago, HairGrowsBack said:

What bothers me a lot is that they all go all the way and straight out blurt the L word, but at the same time aren't setting up anything between the two ? Do they intend to or do they feel like saying "they love each other but they'd never act on it" seals the deal ? Is that it ? Are they ever going to see each other again ?

Another interview:

Quote

“[Bronn] tells us what the audience suspects,” Coster-Waldau says. “It’s a great way to get all that stuff into the audience’s head before the scene, because then there’s this added subtext. Jaime is always about Cersei and what he can do to help her and how to achieve whatever she wants. And for Brienne, it’s the same — she has an oath to Catelyn Stark. She’s extremely strong-willed and has her honor and has to do the right thing always. Sometimes, with both of them, you just want go, ‘For god’s sake, let it go for one second. What about what you want?’ They never listen to themselves. And what I love about the end of this scene is there’s some heartbreak. Because, once again, they were close. But are they ever gonna be able to talk about something other than someone else’s agenda?”

I think that never going on that route would be devastating, I mean, some kind of resolution is needed, and this scene proves that there wasn't anything more they wouldn't have hinted at that.

But I agree it's extremely frustrating and there's no guarantee of anything. Anyway, the actors seem to know there's something going on. They wouldn't use the L word so easily. 

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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Yeah, all we can really say for certain is that they are aware of it and are keeping it alive.  So it doesn't seem to be a dropped plotline.  They must have something planned.  Something awful, no doubt, but something.

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I don't know what's going on. I can't imagine they are making so much out of nothing. They must meet again.

I'm just in it for the pictures at this point, someone can put book dialogue to it, because the story makes no sense at all.

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we'll have to see if something happens in the next two episodes regarding them, separately

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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I think the show has been quite clear that it's depicting a conflict in Jamie between two sides of himself, one which is represented by his past and Cercei, and a more virtuous part of him that is represented by Brienne.

 

Now whatever the angry arguments about his character , and I agree that he has been spinning his wheels for a bit. It does seem that any progression in his character is going to be related to Brienne and Cercei. So like almost everyone else here I think the end of season 6 will be the point at which he breaks from Cercei and finds redemption in Brienne.

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1 hour ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I think the show has been quite clear that it's depicting a conflict in Jamie between two sides of himself, one which is represented by his past and Cercei, and a more virtuous part of him that is represented by Brienne.

 

Now whatever the angry arguments about his character , and I agree that he has been spinning his wheels for a bit. It does seem that any progression in his character is going to be related to Brienne and Cercei. So like almost everyone else here I think the end of season 6 will be the point at which he breaks from Cercei and finds redemption in Brienne.

Let's hope so ;It's now or never, though his change of heart should have started long ago. I hear he doesn't make it to KL nor is he in RR for episode 10, so chances are he meets up with Brienne again (or is about to).

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22 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I think the show has been quite clear that it's depicting a conflict in Jamie between two sides of himself, one which is represented by his past and Cercei, and a more virtuous part of him that is represented by Brienne.

 

Now whatever the angry arguments about his character , and I agree that he has been spinning his wheels for a bit. It does seem that any progression in his character is going to be related to Brienne and Cercei. So like almost everyone else here I think the end of season 6 will be the point at which he breaks from Cercei and finds redemption in Brienne.

I agree, they are focusing a lot on Cersei and contrasting their relationship with the one he has with Brienne.

21 hours ago, HairGrowsBack said:

Let's hope so ;It's now or never, though his change of heart should have started long ago. I hear he doesn't make it to KL nor is he in RR for episode 10, so chances are he meets up with Brienne again (or is about to).

If only!

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I have waited two years to see that Jaime's look at Cersei's eyes.

Is it happening....(???)

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1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I have waited two years to see that Jaime's look at Cersei's eyes.

Is it happening....(???)

They said on the outside the episode that he is terrified by her.

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10 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

They said on the outside the episode that he is terrified by her.

Yes! I saw that!!! NCW said it was scary...for the first time!!

I think they are going that way...for the very first time! If only. It's time to move on.

I see that finally Septa Unella is the only one who knows all Cersei's sins, Jaime will never know that she slept with Lancel, for instance, but after burning many people alive, Jaime can't forget that at this point.

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