Blue Winter Roses

[tugela]

3 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

We can be pretty sure that it was Robert's own conclusion. A man appreciated his betrothed's beauty and then made off with her, supposedly against her will - what other conclusion could there possibly be for Robert? Should he admit to himself that Lyanna might have reciprocated Rhaegar's feelings? Robert, who is so apt at not seeing things he doesn't want to?

 

Provided that the said dialogue ever happened.

You must have access to some extra documents that you know how much time Ned spent with Lyanna and what they talked about.

Ned passed out after Lyanna died.

Which account? The one about his sister dying in a bed of blood while holding onto dried roses (now, how she might have gotten them and why were they so dear to her?) Or that he had a fight with the KG who wouldn't stand down because they claimed they had some superimportant duty there? That's not just one account but several interspersed through the text, and none of them contradicting the other. I don't see what's fishy there.

 

Robert didn't say "probably", he said it as if it were fact. Which means he believes it to be so, and he probably has reason to believe it to be so. Since he encountered Rhaegar himself, we have to believe that it was Rhaegar who told him this. What Rhaegar told him may or may not have been true, but he must have said it.

Ned found Lyanna about to die from fever, she was weak and said a few things, then died. It was right after the battle. Ned passed out as she died, presumably from wounds sustained in the fight, and has no recollection of what happened after that. She might not even be dead for all we know. The only account of her actually being dead apparently comes from Howland Reed, not Ned.

We can be reasonably certain that whatever they talked about could not have taken very long, based on what was going on before and the fact that Ned was apparently seriously wounded himself.

The room was described by Ned as smelling of blood and roses. People have assumed that it was Lyanna's blood from giving birth, but if Ned passed out from his wounds, the blood probably came from him, not her. Lyanna was probably just very ill, and probably extremely upset that her guards were fighting to the death with her brother.

The point is, the descriptions of the tower of joy do not match up with what everyone thinks, and that is the fishy part. There is something else going on there, and I think it is going to surprise everyone

[Ygrain]

20 minutes ago, tugela said:

Rhaegar was like any prince and celebrity in an absolute monarchy. You don't speak ill of them.

Pretty funny that Aerys was known as "Mad King", though.

20 minutes ago, tugela said:

He was a sociopath that was adept at presenting an image to the world, but the real Rhaegar was quite different. That comes across pretty clearly in most accounts of him, people did not really know what he was about or why he was doing the things he did. He was a man of mystery.

And that sociopath had as a close friend a guy who was famous and honoured wide and far because...?

And while he didn't let many people close, there are still accounts of people who met him on a daily basis. You cannot dismiss their accounts because they don't fit your idea of Rhaegar.

20 minutes ago, tugela said:

The claim of Lyanna being raped hundreds of times comes from Robert, it is not fan fiction.

It has about as much value as the claim that Selyse slept with Moonboy. Robert wasn't there.

20 minutes ago, tugela said:

As I pointed out, the mechanism for Robert thinking that would have been their single combat encounter at the Trident. Robert had access to a primsry source, and that should not be so readily discounted.

There is zero reference to any goading taking place before or during the combat.

There is zero reference to Rhaegar ever goading anyone in such a way.

There is zero reference to Rhaegar being that kind of person, only the contrary

So, yes, your hypothetical scenario can, and should, be dismissed because it has zero textual basis.

20 minutes ago, tugela said:

Ned may not have known about the rape, since that is not something Lyanna would have talked about when he found her on her deathbed about to die. He just had Roberts version, and the public image of Rhaegar (he did not know the man personally) to base his opinion on.

Unless Ned had some outside knowledge (and he likely did, given his choice of companions), he had the same set of facts as everyone else to arrive at the conclusion that there was rape but he doesn't think so. 

Plus, you keep sticking to your assumptions. We don't know how much time Ned spent with Lyanna before she died. He doesn't have any Robert's version because Robert is never stated as having heard from any primary source. Heck, we don't even know if he ever had any personal contact with Rhaegar, or with someone who knew Rhaegar well.

 

20 minutes ago, tugela said:

There no mention of what happened to Rhaegar's body in the book. Martin suggested that the body was cremated many years ago, but until it is in print in the books we don't know. Targaryens cremated their dead, so it isn't clear if he was talking about their general practice or what specifically happened.

He didn't "suggest" anything, he said "Rhaegar was cremated". He may change his mind about it but pretending that the info doesn't exist because it hasn't been printed is nonsense.

20 minutes ago, tugela said:

There is a mechanism under which people might believe that Rhaegar was killed at the Trident, and that is through rubies, which are mentioned many, many times in the accounts of the battle. Rubies are used to glamor people so they look like someone else, and Rhaegar at the Trident had a large number of them on his breastplate. So it may not have been Rhaegar at all. The real Rhaegar may have gone somewhere else, say, for example, beyond the wall, where he continued his pursuit of prophecy under an assumed identity.

For all we know, fake Rhaegar's body was burned at the Trident, but real Rhaegar might still be out there.

There is certainly an argument to be made that such a scenario might fit the story reasonably well.

If the author said "Rhaegar was cremated", then it doesn't involve any fake bodies or anything of the kind.

[Ygrain]

20 minutes ago, tugela said:

Robert didn't say "probably", he said it as if it were fact. Which means he believes it to be so, and he probably has reason to believe it to be so. Since he encountered Rhaegar himself, we have to believe that it was Rhaegar who told him this.

What Rhaegar told him may or may not have been true, but he must have said it

A completely invalid line of thought. A man kidnaps your betrothed and spends months hiding somewhere with her. What are you supposed to think, that he sings to her over a cup of tea? If you don't know, or don't want to believe, that she went willingly, then multiple rape is what you assume.

20 minutes ago, tugela said:

Ned found Lyanna about to die from fever, she was weak and said a few things, then died. It was right after the battle. Ned passed out as she died, presumably from wounds sustained in the fight, and has no recollection of what happened after that. She might not even be dead for all we know. The only account of her actually being dead apparently comes from Howland Reed, not Ned.

You need to re-read the passage:

Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief.

The first bolded passage refers to the moment of her death, the other about her being dead. In between, Ned was sitting there and holding her. He apparently was in a state of emotional shock, and if he was weakened by his wounds (if he even sustained any), he would have mentioned that.

Another apparent assumption on your part is that Ned's conversation with Lyanna took place right after the fight. There is zero textual basis for any time estimates between the two events. They come from separate memories and the passage of time is not hinted at in any way. We cannot even be sure that the fight took place before Lyanna's death (most likely it did, but we cannot rule out the scenario that they let him talk to Lyanna and the fight ensued only when Ned refused to let them leave with Jon)

20 minutes ago, tugela said:

We can be reasonably certain that whatever they talked about could not have taken very long, based on what was going on before and the fact that Ned was apparently seriously wounded himself.

Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions. And incorrect on top of that.

20 minutes ago, tugela said:

The room was described by Ned as smelling of blood and roses. People have assumed that it was Lyanna's blood from giving birth, but if Ned passed out from his wounds, the blood probably came from him, not her. Lyanna was probably just very ill, and probably extremely upset that her guards were fighting to the death with her brother.

Well, Lyanna was in her bed of blood. There is no reason for Ned to refer to it like that, even if he bled all over her bed. And he never mentions being seriously injured, so it he wasn't.

20 minutes ago, tugela said:

The point is, the descriptions of the tower of joy do not match up with what everyone thinks, and that is the fishy part. There is something else going on there, and I think it is going to surprise everyone

Can you show me the passage where anyone thinks anything about ToJ? Because I can't recall any.

[Orphalesion]

15 hours ago, tugela said:

Rhaegar would have done whatever he pleased.

We know this because Robert told Ned that Rhaegar raped Lyanna hundreds of times (presumably to ensure that she got pregnant). He would have been told this at the battle of the Trident by Rhaegar himself when they were in single combat. They both knew why they were there and would have been trading insults and taunts while fighting. Rhaegar knew that telling Robert this would be an affront to his honor and enrage him, presumably so that Robert would make a rash mistake. He probably laughed and joked about what he had all done to her. Rhaegar was a better warrior than Robert, but Robert won, probably due to a lucky blow while enraged. This is why all of that happened.

Poor Lyanna. She would have been chained up in this tower being raped multiple times a day by Rhaegar until she got pregnant, and then was forced to carry his child, watched over by the kings guard to ensure that she did not escape her captivity. But she was a good woman, and did not blame her child for his fathers evil nature. No wonder her brother and father were so outraged - they knew what kind of man Rhaegar really was.

And now he is the Night King, continuing his evil quest. Except by a strange twist of fate, his own son will put him down.

 

GRRM doesn't allow Fan Fiction based on his work.

We do know very little about what happened during the time Lyanna was with Rhaegar and we know even less about the exact motivations of both of them.

Robert would of course have been biased against Rhaegar, but we wasn't even at the Tower of Joy to see what state Lyanna was in, so all he has is his own, self-created, mental image of the guy who "stole" the "love" of his life. The only two people who saw Lyanna before her death 9and who are still alive) are Ned and Howland and both of them avoided talking to Robert about those events.

Robert didn't even know that Lyanna was less than thrilled about the prospect of marrying him, so how was he supposed to know how she was treated or felt in the last months of her life?  

[Turkish Delight]

10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

You're confusing the passages. The memory of the crowning was not in a poppy-induced state, it was during Ned's imprisonment in the Black Cells and it was very vivid. The dream has a storm of blue rose petals across the sky which apparently is not what happened, but it is still an old dream, i.e. Ned had had dreams with similar content before, so the effect of fever and poppy didn't lead to something wildly incoherent.

Thanks for setting me straight! I'm in desperate need of a re-read. These posts have really cleared it up for me regarding the tangible nature of the blue roses. Thanks again!

[Turkish Delight]

19 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

This is just plain wrong. Elia gave birth to Aegon AFTER Harrenhal.

Do we know for sure how long after Harrenhal Aegon was born? 281 or 282 was his birth year, I believe. The tourney was held in 281. My memory is a little stale - is there any mention of Elia being pregnant at Harrenhal or did she and Rhaegar conceive afterward? There was a comet the night Aegon was conceived, yes? Was that before or after Harrenhal? Just trying to get my timeline straight.

[BalerionTheCat]

19 hours ago, tugela said:

We know this because Robert told Ned that Rhaegar raped Lyanna hundreds of times (presumably to ensure that she got pregnant). He would have been told this at the battle of the Trident by Rhaegar himself when they were in single combat. They both knew why they were there and would have been trading insults and taunts while fighting. Rhaegar knew that telling Robert this would be an affront to his honor and enrage him, presumably so that Robert would make a rash mistake. He probably laughed and joked about what he had all done to her. Rhaegar was a better warrior than Robert, but Robert won, probably due to a lucky blow while enraged. This is why all of that happened.

Poor Lyanna. She would have been chained up in this tower being raped multiple times a day by Rhaegar until she got pregnant, and then was forced to carry his child, watched over by the kings guard to ensure that she did not escape her captivity. But she was a good woman, and did not blame her child for his fathers evil nature. No wonder her brother and father were so outraged - they knew what kind of man Rhaegar really was.

And now he is the Night King, continuing his evil quest. Except by a strange twist of fate, his own son will put him down.

If Robert was suspecting Lyanna had a child, Ned would have great trouble explaining Jon.
 
What? The NK? A show invention. This is book's forum. A legend of a past age. There is no evidence of the NK in ASoIaF present time. And he would be Rhaegar? I knew Rhaegar = Mance. But Rhaegar = NK is new to me.

[BalerionTheCat]

3 hours ago, Turkish Delight said:

Do we know for sure how long after Harrenhal Aegon was born? 281 or 282 was his birth year, I believe. The tourney was held in 281. My memory is a little stale - is there any mention of Elia being pregnant at Harrenhal or did she and Rhaegar conceive afterward? There was a comet the night Aegon was conceived, yes? Was that before or after Harrenhal? Just trying to get my timeline straight.

Nor could he[Rhaegar] be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands.

The tourney was in 281. Aegon was already born at the turn of 282, or in the very first days at the latest. Elia was possibly pregnant during the tourney, depending when it happened in the year. Given Elia's health, Rhaenys was born in 280 and Elia was bedridden for half a year after, it is unlikely the tourney was early or late in 281, or Elia would not have attended. Anyway it is unlikely Rhaegar knew during the tourney that Elia could not have another child, the 3rd head.

[tugela]

14 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Pretty funny that Aerys was known as "Mad King", though.

And that sociopath had as a close friend a guy who was famous and honoured wide and far because...?

And while he didn't let many people close, there are still accounts of people who met him on a daily basis. You cannot dismiss their accounts because they don't fit your idea of Rhaegar.

It has about as much value as the claim that Selyse slept with Moonboy. Robert wasn't there.

There is zero reference to any goading taking place before or during the combat.

There is zero reference to Rhaegar ever goading anyone in such a way.

There is zero reference to Rhaegar being that kind of person, only the contrary

So, yes, your hypothetical scenario can, and should, be dismissed because it has zero textual basis.

Unless Ned had some outside knowledge (and he likely did, given his choice of companions), he had the same set of facts as everyone else to arrive at the conclusion that there was rape but he doesn't think so. 

Plus, you keep sticking to your assumptions. We don't know how much time Ned spent with Lyanna before she died. He doesn't have any Robert's version because Robert is never stated as having heard from any primary source. Heck, we don't even know if he ever had any personal contact with Rhaegar, or with someone who knew Rhaegar well.

 

He didn't "suggest" anything, he said "Rhaegar was cremated". He may change his mind about it but pretending that the info doesn't exist because it hasn't been printed is nonsense.

If the author said "Rhaegar was cremated", then it doesn't involve any fake bodies or anything of the kind.

Aerys being "mad" was the history written by the victors. He might not have quite as mad as they though, perhaps just a personality disorder. There are historical rulers like that, Richard II for example.

Sociopaths special skill is fooling people into thinking they are great individuals. The dysfunctional side of them is hidden. It is not out of the question that Rhaegar was like that, and certainly his behavior is entirely consistent with the type.

Robert may not have been at Lyanna's rapes, but he certainly confronted Rhaegar in person, and the whole question of the abduction would have come up. Lyanna may or may not have been raped, but Robert certainly was pretty insistent that she was, and his belief had to come from somewhere. That somewhere would have been Rhaegar himself on the Trident when they fought one on one.

Ned would have been subject to the same deception by a sociopath as anyone else. In fact, he would have been even more so, since he appears to be particularly naïve and gullible. He is probably one of those people who believes in the best motives of everyone unless confronted otherwise in person. Using Ned as an authority is hardly convincing.

We don't know how much time they spent together, but Lyanna was almost dead from fever, and Ned apparently was seriously wounded from the battle. We can say this for sure because Lyanna was very weak and promptly died, while Ned passed out for no apparent reason in a room that "smelt of blood". So, he was wounded, the "blood" in question probably came from him, and the battle must have just taken place, possibly in the room itself. So I doubt they spent much time together. Long enough for Ned to reach her, but not much else, since Howland does not appear to be in attendance until after death/passing out. I would say 5-15 minutes at most. If it were longer Lyanna would have secured agreement long before she died, not as she was dieing.

"Rhaegar" was supposedly cremated, but if it was fake Rhaegar, the real Rhaegar may still be around. The author said that the guy who fell on the field was cremated.  Until it appears in print that Rhaegar really is dead, we cannot assume that it is so, because, as we know, the book provides for multiple avenues for something else to have happened. Maybe he was misleading fans, or did not have a clear idea how that story line would evolve that far into future. Until it is in print we cannot be sure, we can only speculate.

[tugela]

2 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Nor could he[Rhaegar] be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands.

The tourney was in 281. Aegon was already born at the turn of 282, or in the very first days at the latest. Elia was possibly pregnant during the tourney, depending when it happened in the year. Given Elia's health, Rhaenys was born in 280 and Elia was bedridden for half a year after, it is unlikely the tourney was early or late in 281, or Elia would not have attended. Anyway it is unlikely Rhaegar knew during the tourney that Elia could not have another child, the 3rd head.

He would have known that it would be unlikely. Especially considering his own mothers difficulty in producing healthy children.

In any case, the prophecy involved fire and ice, so whoever Elia produced, they would not satisfy what he was working towards.

Rhaegar may already have known that Elia was the wrong wife before he even married her. He had to marry her for political reasons.

[tugela]

14 hours ago, Ygrain said:

A completely invalid line of thought. A man kidnaps your betrothed and spends months hiding somewhere with her. What are you supposed to think, that he sings to her over a cup of tea? If you don't know, or don't want to believe, that she went willingly, then multiple rape is what you assume.

You need to re-read the passage:

Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief.

The first bolded passage refers to the moment of her death, the other about her being dead. In between, Ned was sitting there and holding her. He apparently was in a state of emotional shock, and if he was weakened by his wounds (if he even sustained any), he would have mentioned that.

Another apparent assumption on your part is that Ned's conversation with Lyanna took place right after the fight. There is zero textual basis for any time estimates between the two events. They come from separate memories and the passage of time is not hinted at in any way. We cannot even be sure that the fight took place before Lyanna's death (most likely it did, but we cannot rule out the scenario that they let him talk to Lyanna and the fight ensued only when Ned refused to let them leave with Jon)

Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions. And incorrect on top of that.

Well, Lyanna was in her bed of blood. There is no reason for Ned to refer to it like that, even if he bled all over her bed. And he never mentions being seriously injured, so it he wasn't.

Can you show me the passage where anyone thinks anything about ToJ? Because I can't recall any.

Most other people apparently thought that Lyanna went willingly, so just concluding that she was raped is a bit of a leap.

Ned remembered her dropping the petals, and assumed she died. Maybe she just fainted. The bit about him "still holding the body" does not come from himself, because he doesn't remember. That part comes from "they", who presumably was Howland Reed.

He was very specific about remembering nothing after that. That does not happen unless you have passed out. The only way for him to pass out would be from wounds.

He was in single combat with the greatest swordsman in the realm, and was losing until Howland jumped in and save the day. If he was losing then it means that he was wounded, otherwise it would be described just as being in combat.

The fight did not take place after Lyanna's death because (1) he describes first encountering the guards, and the fight immediately progresses from there; and (2) he had passed out after Lyanna's death and would be incapable of fighting.

Lyanna was dying from fever. He states that quite clearly. The blood would not have come from her, that leaves him as the source of the blood. It may well be that the final moments of the battle took place in her bedroom.

[tugela]

9 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

 

GRRM doesn't allow Fan Fiction based on his work.

We do know very little about what happened during the time Lyanna was with Rhaegar and we know even less about the exact motivations of both of them.

Robert would of course have been biased against Rhaegar, but we wasn't even at the Tower of Joy to see what state Lyanna was in, so all he has is his own, self-created, mental image of the guy who "stole" the "love" of his life. The only two people who saw Lyanna before her death 9and who are still alive) are Ned and Howland and both of them avoided talking to Robert about those events.

Robert didn't even know that Lyanna was less than thrilled about the prospect of marrying him, so how was he supposed to know how she was treated or felt in the last months of her life?  

Yes, but you are overlooking the fact that Robert personally met Rhaeger AFTER the abduction. So he has access to a first person version of events that is independent of Ned and Howland.

[Ygrain]

6 hours ago, tugela said:

Aerys being "mad" was the history written by the victors. He might not have quite as mad as they though, perhaps just a personality disorder. There are historical rulers like that, Richard II for example.

Sociopaths special skill is fooling people into thinking they are great individuals. The dysfunctional side of them is hidden. It is not out of the question that Rhaegar was like that, and certainly his behavior is entirely consistent with the type.

Robert may not have been at Lyanna's rapes, but he certainly confronted Rhaegar in person, and the whole question of the abduction would have come up. Lyanna may or may not have been raped, but Robert certainly was pretty insistent that she was, and his belief had to come from somewhere. That somewhere would have been Rhaegar himself on the Trident when they fought one on one.

Ned would have been subject to the same deception by a sociopath as anyone else. In fact, he would have been even more so, since he appears to be particularly naïve and gullible. He is probably one of those people who believes in the best motives of everyone unless confronted otherwise in person. Using Ned as an authority is hardly convincing.

We don't know how much time they spent together, but Lyanna was almost dead from fever, and Ned apparently was seriously wounded from the battle. We can say this for sure because Lyanna was very weak and promptly died, while Ned passed out for no apparent reason in a room that "smelt of blood". So, he was wounded, the "blood" in question probably came from him, and the battle must have just taken place, possibly in the room itself. So I doubt they spent much time together. Long enough for Ned to reach her, but not much else, since Howland does not appear to be in attendance until after death/passing out. I would say 5-15 minutes at most. If it were longer Lyanna would have secured agreement long before she died, not as she was dieing.

"Rhaegar" was supposedly cremated, but if it was fake Rhaegar, the real Rhaegar may still be around. The author said that the guy who fell on the field was cremated.  Until it appears in print that Rhaegar really is dead, we cannot assume that it is so, because, as we know, the book provides for multiple avenues for something else to have happened. Maybe he was misleading fans, or did not have a clear idea how that story line would evolve that far into future. Until it is in print we cannot be sure, we can only speculate.

 

6 hours ago, tugela said:

Most other people apparently thought that Lyanna went willingly, so just concluding that she was raped is a bit of a leap.

Ned remembered her dropping the petals, and assumed she died. Maybe she just fainted. The bit about him "still holding the body" does not come from himself, because he doesn't remember. That part comes from "they", who presumably was Howland Reed.

He was very specific about remembering nothing after that. That does not happen unless you have passed out. The only way for him to pass out would be from wounds.

He was in single combat with the greatest swordsman in the realm, and was losing until Howland jumped in and save the day. If he was losing then it means that he was wounded, otherwise it would be described just as being in combat.

The fight did not take place after Lyanna's death because (1) he describes first encountering the guards, and the fight immediately progresses from there; and (2) he had passed out after Lyanna's death and would be incapable of fighting.

Lyanna was dying from fever. He states that quite clearly. The blood would not have come from her, that leaves him as the source of the blood. It may well be that the final moments of the battle took place in her bedroom.

Stop twisting the text into pretzels to make it fit your faulty preconceptions. Ned repeatedly speaks about Lyanna's bed of blood, so, ver much yeah, Lyanna was the source of blood because "bed of blood" = childbirth and the bleeding doesn't stop magically the moment the child is born. Neither the timing nor the sequence of events is known because all the information comes from disparate bits of memories, some even in dream form. An emotional trauma can easily turn a person's mind blank, so there is no reason to come up with wounds which are never mentioned, and when someone says that their sister gave up hold on life, it means she died.

PS "Rhaegar was cremated" means Rhaegar. As in, personal identification. Not "a guy who was killed by the Trident". Rhaegar.

[BalerionTheCat]

9 hours ago, tugela said:

He would have known that it would be unlikely. Especially considering his own mothers difficulty in producing healthy children.

In any case, the prophecy involved fire and ice, so whoever Elia produced, they would not satisfy what he was working towards.

Rhaegar may already have known that Elia was the wrong wife before he even married her. He had to marry her for political reasons.

But in Daenerys vision, he tells Elia, Aegon is TPTWP:

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire."

At Aegon's birth, after Harrendal (it can't be another way), he doesn't see Lyanna as the mother of TPTWP. Rhaegar parents and grandparents were brother and sister. The last external blood was Betha Blackwood, Aegon V wife. You can't find much stronger First Men"s blood. Probably Rhaegar thought he was carrying both the Ice and the Fire. IMO, it was their second meeting, by accident or provoked by Lyanna, which convinced Rhaegar of Lyanna's importance. I too thought the revelation was at Harrendal. It contributed, but the decision was later.

ETA:

As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

Ned is supposed to be confused. But it seems unlikely the combat occurred after Lyanna death.

 

[Orphalesion]

19 hours ago, tugela said:

Yes, but you are overlooking the fact that Robert personally met Rhaeger AFTER the abduction. So he has access to a first person version of events that is independent of Ned and Howland.

Robert met Rhaegar once after he "abducted" Lyanna: during the battle at the Trident where he fought and killed the guy. Unless Robert was a telepath this gives him zero insight into what happened at the Tower of Joy or into Rhaegar's character.

Sorry, what you said still has no justification in the text at all and thus remains Fanfiction.

[YOVMO]

On June 24, 2016 at 5:02 PM, Turkish Delight said:

Quick question:

So did Rhaegar literally give Lyanna blue winter roses at Harrenhal or was this the product of milk of the poppy in Ned's memory? We're told that Lyanna died with roses in her hand, which many interpret to be her champion's crown, but is this simply a metaphor?

I'm really confused about this myself, as I've always wondered how Rhaegar managed to get blue winter roses all the way to Harrenhal to give to Lyanna. Did he and Lyanna meet long before the tourney? Was it a regular champion's crown that has come to resemble something symbolic of Lyanna and her child in Ned's dreams?

That is a great question. Unlikely that there are loads of blue winter roses around Harrenhal. That said, if anyone in the 7 kingdoms could get his hands on some it would be Rhaegar.

 

Still, an excellent question. Impossible to answer with current information. 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

The Blue Winter roses at the Tower of Joy was not the same as those from the Harrenhal tourney . The tourney's was a crown , while the tower's was a bouquet maybe brought by Hightower from King's Landing or Arthur Dayne since Dornish ports are not blocked off or there may have some in the Dornish hill or in the Dayne's gardens .

 

[Ygrain]

4 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

The Blue Winter roses at the Tower of Joy was not the same as those from the Harrenhal tourney . The tourney's was a crown , while the tower's was a bouquet maybe brought by Hightower from King's Landing or Arthur Dayne since Dornish ports are not blocked off or there may have some in the Dornish hill or in the Dayne's gardens .

Oh? And you know how?