A possible new take on the Rhaegar = Mance crackpot

[cgrav]

2 hours ago, Red Man Racey said:

This definitely doesn't work since Mance Rayder was raised by the Night's Watch at the Wall. There most certainly was a Mance Rayder long before Robert's Rebellion.

Yeah, unless there's a way for Mance's backstory to be false (as well as other characters' memories of him), the theory is kinda DOA. It would be cool, but I'd expect to see something more strongly hinting at a father/son relationship when he talks with Jon. Maybe it's there and I wasn't clued in when I read most of chapters, but nothing in my memory sticks out. I'd frankly crackpot that it's more likely for Benjen to have been the connection between Jon and Mance (anyone want to search for evidence of Benjen as a mole?)

The rubies are conspicuous, though, and I think it means we have to look for something in that scene, but likely not a fake death. I person wonder if Robert used treachery to kill Rhaegar, such as yielding in single combat and then striking Rhaegar unawares.

But I don't see any need for Rhaegar to be alive. I think people are mostly just itching for more information and Rhaegar would be the most complete and direct source, short of a very thorough Varys POV. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

14 hours ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

I think there are already plenty of Aemon's, especially now with little Aemon Steelsong, it may be a little redundant. But I have wondered what his Targ name would've been, if in fact he was to have been given one. I'm thinking maybe Daemon.

There's actually only one Aemon now with little Aemon Steelsong. But Gilly's not going to officially name the boy until he's at least two years old. She might change her mind on the name, or the boy might get sick and die. Besides which Jon is probably going to stick with Jon even if he does have another birth name.

My second choice for Jon's "Targ name" is Jaehaerys because it starts with J and I could see Rhaegar naming a child after his grandfather. Rounding out my top three is Daeron because Jon thought a lot of Daeron I.

[Red Man Racey]

So the theory goes that someone else puts on Rhaegar's armor and the rubies hold the glamor in place so everybody thinks that it's Rhaegar; fRhaegar takes a hammer to the breadbasket which kills him and knocks loose all the rubies; fRhaegar's body is later cremated in the tradition of Targaryens; meanwhile, Rhaegar steals himself to the Wall and then deserts to go live with the Free Folk.

I've bolded the part that makes no sense. Once the rubies are gone the glamor would fail revealing the man underneath. The people who are doing the cremating know whose body they're supposed to be burning. Wouldn't they be the least bit puzzled that some random guy was wearing the Crown Prince's armor?

@cgravI think the importance of the rubies in Rhaegar's armor is not that they indicate some sort of glamor or deception, but instead they are ironic since rubies are symbolically tied to protection and success.

[cgrav]

1 hour ago, Red Man Racey said:

 

@cgravI think the importance of the rubies in Rhaegar's armor is not that they indicate some sort of glamor or deception, but instead they are ironic since rubies are symbolically tied to protection and success.

I don't think there was a glamor, but I think they tend to tip the reader off to a deception of some kind (which disguises are). Lyn Corbray, for example, has a prominently noted ruby in his sword hilt during the scene in which he stooges for Littlefinger in the Eyrie. I just think there's something possibly important  in Rhaegar's death scene that we haven't been told, and my take is that Robert may have used treachery to defeat Rhaegar.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

6 hours ago, cgrav said:

I don't think there was a glamor, but I think they tend to tip the reader off to a deception of some kind (which disguises are). Lyn Corbray, for example, has a prominently noted ruby in his sword hilt during the scene in which he stooges for Littlefinger in the Eyrie. I just think there's something possibly important  in Rhaegar's death scene that we haven't been told, and my take is that Robert may have used treachery to defeat Rhaegar.

Rubies are also a status symbol in the medieval world. Rhaegar could have chosen to have his flashy Targaryen dragon done in garnets, but garnets just don't say "I own your ass" the way rubies do.

Then of course there's the magic connection fitting in nicely with Rhae Rhae's early belief that he was TDtwP.

Lots to play with and think about where Rhaegar and rubies are concerned.

[Viking]

Lyn Corbray is also the guy who is said to kill Prince Luwyn of Dorne, who might have been in Rhaegar's armour, the prince dying in the stream with the name of his so far unnamed paramour on his lips before he dies falls in the water and later is bloated body is assumed to be rhaegar due to him wearing rhaegars armour. 

 

Lyn Corbray may have been in on it, or he  may just  have claimed credit for killing prince luwyn since he did attack the dornish contingent and nobody else claimed the kill. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

2 minutes ago, Viking said:

Lyn Corbray is also the guy who is said to kill Prince Luwyn of Dorne, who might have been in Rhaegar's armour, the prince dying in the stream with the name of his so far unnamed paramour on his lips before he dies falls in the water and later is bloated body is assumed to be rhaegar due to him wearing rhaegars armour. 

 

Lyn Corbray may have been in on it, or he  may just  have claimed credit for killing prince luwyn since he did attack the dornish contingent and nobody else claimed the kill. 

How does anyone claim credit for the kill of a guy who was pretending to be someone else?

First of all, if Lewyn was wearing Rhaegar's armor, then someone had to be wearing Lewyn's armor, or Corbray couldn't claim credit for killing Lewyn.

Second, then who was in Lewyn's armor? The problem with one guy pretending to be another is that eventually you get to the end of the line of people filling in and you've got someone whose family wants to know where the heck he is.

It's been stated...by the author, I think...that the name Rhaegar whispered was Lyanna. Why would Lewyn whisper Lyanna's name?

Third, GRRM himself said that Rhaegar was cremated. Not the guy in Rhaegar's armor. Not Rhaegar's stunt double. Rhaegar. 

[Ygrain]

5 hours ago, Viking said:

Lyn Corbray is also the guy who is said to kill Prince Luwyn of Dorne, who might have been in Rhaegar's armour, the prince dying in the stream with the name of his so far unnamed paramour on his lips before he dies falls in the water and later is bloated body is assumed to be rhaegar due to him wearing rhaegars armour. 

 

Lyn Corbray may have been in on it, or he  may just  have claimed credit for killing prince luwyn since he did attack the dornish contingent and nobody else claimed the kill. 

 

5 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

How does anyone claim credit for the kill of a guy who was pretending to be someone else?

First of all, if Lewyn was wearing Rhaegar's armor, then someone had to be wearing Lewyn's armor, or Corbray couldn't claim credit for killing Lewyn.

Second, then who was in Lewyn's armor? The problem with one guy pretending to be another is that eventually you get to the end of the line of people filling in and you've got someone whose family wants to know where the heck he is.

It's been stated...by the author, I think...that the name Rhaegar whispered was Lyanna. Why would Lewyn whisper Lyanna's name?

Third, GRRM himself said that Rhaegar was cremated. Not the guy in Rhaegar's armor. Not Rhaegar's stunt double. Rhaegar. 

What she said. 

Besides, for a body to be bloated past recognition, it would have to be in water for days, and even if it was, hair colour wouldn't be affected. And since Lewyn is not stated to have Targ pale hair, it couldn't be him.

[cgrav]

Ultimately I think the best clues as to Rhaegar's death are in the multiple Trident reenactment scenes (Joff vs Arya, B. Stark vs Littlefinger, Dareon vs Samwell...), which is where I first got the idea of Robert winning by treachery more than battle prowess. 

Rubies bear further investigation. Their association with glamor taints every other mention of them. Tywin even compares rubies and garnets directly, which tells us that we're not meant to think of them as just another gemstone. "Garnets lack the fire", not an innocuous choice of words in this universe of symbols.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

1 hour ago, cgrav said:

Ultimately I think the best clues as to Rhaegar's death are in the multiple Trident reenactment scenes (Joff vs Arya, B. Stark vs Littlefinger, Dareon vs Samwell...), which is where I first got the idea of Robert winning by treachery more than battle prowess. 

Rubies bear further investigation. Their association with glamor taints every other mention of them. Tywin even compares rubies and garnets directly, which tells us that we're not meant to think of them as just another gemstone. "Garnets lack the fire", not an innocuous choice of words in this universe of symbols.

Yes and no. Glamors are pretty obvious by the glowing or pulsing of the ruby. Non-glamoring rubies just act like regular gems.

Strange. I was just thinking that of rubies yesterday. That they lack fire and how well that fits with the Targaryen house words.

Rubies were at the top of the show-off-the-money list of gems in the middle ages. They are a status symbol.

[cgrav]

56 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 

Strange. I was just thinking that of rubies yesterday. That they lack fire and how well that fits with the Targaryen house words.

The garnets lack fire, which means the rubies possess it... maybe a sort of dragonglass stand in? 

The words are fire and blood, so maybe garnets are blood? Ramsay has a garnet "in the shape of a drop of blood", and later teardrop shaped ones, and they are described as "spattered" on the clothing. They are also used as eyes on multiple occasions.

its pretty cool that Tywin wants the fiery rubies in Widow's Wail - fire and Ice!

And Interestingly, one "fire" character we'd expect to have the fiery rubies has only garnets: Stannis. And he definitely does lack the fire. 

This ruby/garnet thing is getting interesting. I will have to look into it more.

unrelated AJT thing: in the scene where Tywin says "Garnets lack the fire", The next sentence is Tyrion announcing his presence. 

[Victarious2]

On 2/24/2017 at 9:33 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I don't know how valid it is when a guy who works with GRRM and on whom GRRM relies for help with the millions of details in the series has repeatedly (and sometimes heatedly) said that Rhaegar Targaryen is dead. You've heard of Elio/Ran, right?

You probably weren't here during the height of the Mance = Rhaegar craze when people were posting three threads a week on it. That's when Ran lost his cool and posted in all caps that "Rhaegar Targaryen is f-ing dead."  Only he didn't shorten the f word.

Eh, idk.  I doubt Martin would tell him about such a huge spoiler.  And the Mance = Rhaegar theory just makes too much sense to me.

[Ygrain]

Sheesh, what kind of spoiler is it when it merely confirms the information from the books and when the author himself said that Rhaegar was cremated? Is now saying "Ned is dead" also a spoiler?

[Aegon VII]

2 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Sheesh, what kind of spoiler is it when it merely confirms the information from the books and when the author himself said that Rhaegar was cremated? Is now saying "Ned is dead" also a spoiler?

It's a spoiler when the reader has not yet gotten to that point in the story. So yes, if you told someone who just started GoT that Ned is dead, it would be a spoiler. Just like if grrm let anyone know that rhaegar is Mance, it would be a spoiler

[Ygrain]

Just now, Aegon VII said:

It's a spoiler when the reader has not yet gotten to that point in the story. So yes, if you told someone who just started GoT that Ned is dead, it would be a spoiler. Just like if grrm let anyone know that rhaegar is Mance, it would be a spoiler

Don't play obtuse. The author confirmed the information stated fairly early in book 1, that's no spoiler, and don't bring "new readers" into this, either, because this is apparently not what we are talking about here.

[Bael's Bastard]

Rhaegar's death is mentioned as early as the first chapter of Daenerys, which is the third chapter of the entire series, and is reiterated throughout the series. Rhaegar's death is no spoiler to anyone who has read half a hundred or so pages of the book.

GRRM has no problem ignoring or not answering a question when he doesn't want to address it. When he was asked about Rhaenys and Aegon being dead, he explicitly confirmed Rhaenys' death without addressing baby Aegon at all.

In this case, he chose to confirm that Rhaegar was cremated, years before the fake execution of Mance in ADWD was published.

The idea that Rhaegar is alive as Mance requires GRRM the author (not his characters) to have chosen to answer a question he didn't need to answer, and give a blatant lie as the answer, at around the same time he was writing Mance's fake execution.

The SSM and Mance's fake execution probably contributed more than anything to the crackpot that Mance is Rhaegar, so it is amusing that anyone would think his "lie" about Rhaegar's cremation was intended to avoid spoiling.

[J. Stargaryen]

On 3/1/2017 at 0:02 PM, cgrav said:

The rubies are conspicuous, though, and I think it means we have to look for something in that scene, but likely not a fake death. I person wonder if Robert used treachery to kill Rhaegar, such as yielding in single combat and then striking Rhaegar unawares.

 

On 3/2/2017 at 10:54 AM, Red Man Racey said:

I think the importance of the rubies in Rhaegar's armor is not that they indicate some sort of glamor or deception, but instead they are ironic since rubies are symbolically tied to protection and success.

GRRM tells us that Rhaegar's rubies are like fire and blood.

“rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight.”

"Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince."

And Rhaegar's rubies were pieced together in the shape of the Targaryen sigil. Those rubies represent House Targaryen.

On 3/3/2017 at 1:08 PM, cgrav said:

Rubies bear further investigation. Their association with glamor taints every other mention of them. Tywin even compares rubies and garnets directly, which tells us that we're not meant to think of them as just another gemstone. "Garnets lack the fire", not an innocuous choice of words in this universe of symbols.

 

On 3/3/2017 at 3:43 PM, cgrav said:

This ruby/garnet thing is getting interesting. I will have to look into it more.

Garnets are used to symbolize blood on multiple occasions. And, as a symbol of blood they are like rubies, except that rubies also symbolize fire— Fire and Blood.

On 3/1/2017 at 1:19 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

My second choice for Jon's "Targ name" is Jaehaerys because it starts with J and I could see Rhaegar naming a child after his grandfather. Rounding out my top three is Daeron because Jon thought a lot of Daeron I.

Aemon is the favorite, but I think there is a pretty strong case to be made for Aegon. Especially if fAegon manages to get himself crowned as Aegon VI. Then Jon could/would be Aegon VII.

[Aegon VII]

11 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Don't play obtuse. The author confirmed the information stated fairly early in book 1, that's no spoiler, and don't bring "new readers" into this, either, because this is apparently not what we are talking about here.

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. It seems pretty obvious that if GRRM told us Rhaegar was still alive it would be a spoiler. In the same way if you told someone who just started the books about Ned it would be spoiler. I make this comparison to show that by it's nature, a spoiler is dependent on where the audience is in the story.

So, then the discussion becomes, well he didn't have to answer or he could have answered around the question. Yes he could have. But obviously the more he declined to answer or the more ambiguity in his answer the more this theory would be given credence. You've seen how much support MR=RT has, and that is with all of us knowing about GRRM's SSM. Imagine how much more overblown it would be if he had given an ambiguous answer.

And what's to say he didn't give an ambiguous answer. There are many ways his statement can be viewed without being a lie. E.g. Mance is killed in twow and cremated, thus rhaegar's body was ultimately cremated. There is no rule that says the author has the same sense of past and present as the reader. Even if there weren't ways to view his statement as truthful, we still shouldn't dismiss it based on the logic, "grrm doesn't lie". We know grrms hasn't lied yet and we know he claims not to but ultimately that means nothing. We should not dismiss a theory because we are 100% sure the author wouldn't stretch the truth in an interview while discussing what would be the biggest twist in the book.

 

10 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Garnets are used to symbolize blood on multiple occasions. And, as a symbol of blood they are like rubies, except that rubies also symbolize fire— Fire and Blood.

I think more than anything Rubies are used when GRRM want's to highlight a sense of identity. This is why they are also used as glamours, as it is someone assuming a different Identity. The garnet/Ruby comparison also fits into this, as targs are heavily assocoiated with rubies, and those "pretending" to rule, Tywin Lannister, are actually more suited to Garnets. Tywin recognizes this and that's why he's intent on having Rubies in the sword instead of garnets, so he can display to the world that the lannisters are right and proper in their rule. Garnets would be more fitting for the Lannisters, but they want to pretend to be better than they are and call themselves rubies.

 

10 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

 

Aemon is the favorite, but I think there is a pretty strong case to be made for Aegon. Especially if fAegon manages to get himself crowned as Aegon VI. Then Jon could/would be Aegon VII.

Aegon VII is my favorite guess as well. I know grrm has confirmed otherwise by saying it was Elia he was with, but I would love for Rhaegar to have been talking to Jon Snow when he says, his is a song of ice and fire.

[J. Stargaryen]

6 minutes ago, Aegon VII said:

I think more than anything Rubies are used when GRRM want's to highlight a sense of identity. This is why they are also used as glamours, as it is someone assuming a different Identity. The garnet/Ruby comparison also fits into this, as targs are heavily assocoiated with rubies, and those "pretending" to rule, Tywin Lannister, are actually more suited to Garnets. Tywin recognizes this and that's why he's intent on having Rubies in the sword instead of garnets, so he can display to the world that the lannisters are right and proper in their rule. Garnets would be more fitting for the Lannisters, but they want to pretend to be better than they are and call themselves rubies.

We're pretty much in agreement here. Tywin has an inferiority complex when it comes to the Targaryens.

6 minutes ago, Aegon VII said:

Aegon VII is my favorite guess as well. I know grrm has confirmed otherwise by saying it was Elia he was with, but I would love for Rhaegar to have been talking to Jon Snow when he says, his is a song of ice and fire.

I think Rhaegar believed his son and heir was supposed to be the PtwP, and he wanted that child to be named Aegon—"What better name for a king?" It turned out he was right, but it took Lyanna to fulfill his wishes. Assuming that Jon's real name is Aegon.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

10 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

<snip

Aemon is the favorite, but I think there is a pretty strong case to be made for Aegon. Especially if fAegon manages to get himself crowned as Aegon VI. Then Jon could/would be Aegon VII.

Agreed on Aemon.

Why would Rhaegar and Lyanna name their child Aegon when Rhaegar already had an Aegon? 

10 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

Aegon VII is my favorite guess as well. I know grrm has confirmed otherwise by saying it was Elia he was with, but I would love for Rhaegar to have been talking to Jon Snow when he says, his is a song of ice and fire.

That would have to make the whole vision a dud though because Rhaegar was dead before Jon was born, so he couldn't have been talking to Lyanna while she nursed the baby. And if that vision is a dud, then all of them are suspect. And as I mentioned above, Rhaegar already had a son named Aegon.