sweetsunray Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 20 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said: Hi sweetsunray. I need to take a good look at your threads. A lot of people have recommended them, I have been a bit stuck in my own research. I shall address that. On the three weirwood trees at Highgarden, I have just checked in the world book and they are actually called the 'Three Singers', not Sisters Here is the text.... Legend has it these trees, known in the Reach as the Three Singers, were planted by Garth Greenhand himself. Anyway, I look forward to reading your threads. No idea how I ended up making that mistake. I'm sorry. And I have to edit an essay now... lol. For some reason I read "three sisters" at the time instead of "three singers". @LmL was referring to this chthonic essay with regards to WF (the first half discusses WF, godswood, the ponds, BR's cave, the underground rivers and Yggdrasil and Walhalla connections, especially the Urdardbrunnr): https://sweeticeandfiresunray.wordpress.com/2016/03/15/hades-of-winterfell-and-the-north/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted August 31, 2016 Author Share Posted August 31, 2016 14 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said: Thanks. I have some other notes as well, there are caves and cavern entrances everywhere! But just early ideas at the moment. I look forward to reading your response. I guess I really don't have a more detailed response other than to nod my head and say "yeah, that makes sense." I had only partly caught on to the idea of hollow hills (again Sweetsunray's essays are recommended here) but looking at you put them all together is outstanding. It's just more confirmation of my notion about Greenseer Kings. In fact I will probably want to include some of this info and give you the credit when I cover that topic - clearly, a discussion of greenseer kings in the Dawn Age would be incomplete without it. WF has all of our interest of course - we are flat out told that the original buildings were built over the crypts and the land was not leveled. If they were only choosing the location for the hot springs, it would be fine to level the land. But I think it seems likely that the caverns themselves are the important thing. In ADWD, Bran sees his father in front of the black pond in the WF godswood, and he sees weirwood branches wrapping around him, a perfect parallel to Bran himself. I think the point is a link between KoW and greenseer thrones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizz-The-Smith Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said: No idea how I ended up making that mistake. I'm sorry. And I have to edit an essay now... lol. For some reason I read "three sisters" at the time instead of "three singers". No problem, you had me thinking I had done the same thing. It wouldn't be the first time I'd made that mistake. There is of course the islands 'Three Sisters'. Weren't they fought over for years between the North and the Vale? I was going to visit that soon, but perhaps there is another hollow hill or seam of magic there? It would explain the constant wars over a seemingly normal set of islands, and perhaps involve your thoughts around Three Sisters? Thinking out loud now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 14 minutes ago, LmL said: Combined with Brandon of the Bloody Blade being a son of Garth and potentially related to Bran the B. Basically I totally agree with King of Winter and Garth the Green as a version of the Oak and Holly King pairing. The interesting thing is that Robb attempts to create a unified North & South with the North and the Riverlands. He even gets an extra title. He's not just King in the North but also King of the Trident. It seems to me though that a Horus-like unification ought to be North & Reach. Or it could also work with Dorne as Set was the King of the desert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 2 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said: No problem, you had me thinking I had done the same thing. It wouldn't be the first time I'd made that mistake. There is of course the islands 'Three Sisters'. Weren't they fought over for years between the North and the Vale? I was going to visit that soon, but perhaps there is another hollow hill or seam of magic there? It would explain the constant wars over a seemingly normal set of islands, and perhaps involve your thoughts around Three Sisters? Thinking out loud now. No, I had it as "Three Singers" originally when I first mention them, and then later when I expand on the 3 Norns at the Urdarbrunnr and the 3 intertwined weirwood trees at a pond with Highgarden much a name like "Asgard" (gardne of the gods/high ones) I ended up with 3 sisters in my head. Though yes, there is the 3 sisters of the Vale, and I'm thinking it might have weirwood significance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizz-The-Smith Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 4 minutes ago, LmL said: I guess I really don't have a more detailed response other than to nod my head and say "yeah, that makes sense." I had only partly caught on to the idea of hollow hills (again Sweetsunray's essays are recommended here) but looking at you put them all together is outstanding. It's just more confirmation of my notion about Greenseer Kings. In fact I will probably want to include some of this info and give you the credit when I cover that topic - clearly, a discussion of greenseer kings in the Dawn Age would be incomplete without it. WF has all of our interest of course - we are flat out told that the original buildings were built over the crypts and the land was not leveled. If they were only choosing the location for the hot springs, it would be fine to level the land. But I think it seems likely that the caverns themselves are the important thing. In ADWD, Bran sees his father in front of the black pond in the WF godswood, and he sees weirwood branches wrapping around him, a perfect parallel to Bran himself. I think the point is a link between KoW and greenseer thrones. Ha, that's a compliment if ever there was one. I would be happy for you use this in your Greenseer Kings project, let's hope for some more info as well. I have caverns on the brain at the moment! I'm off, it's late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted September 1, 2016 Author Share Posted September 1, 2016 21 hours ago, Ser Creighton said: Okay I have to rewrite this post, because the sight glitched and the server went down. Sooooooo annoying. Probably my biggest gripe about this otherwise wonderful website we all know and love. Thanks for taking the time. 21 hours ago, Ser Creighton said: So you have the sword tower on Pyke. The white green and and black which you associate with the color of Dany's dragons and I agree. Viserion the white, with a roar that would send a 100 lions running. Rhaegal, the Green, the birth of the Thunderbolt from the final chapter of Thrones. Drogon, the black, the world breaker. This ties into Dany's triple deity symbolism. Maiden, Mother and Crone. The maiden with her white lion pelt, the Mother who is really the storm giving them the fire of the gods, and finally Drogon and the Crone. The crone lights the way, the beacon, while Drogon named after a King symbolizes the stallion who mounts the world, the stallion being associated with the Horned lord in the series. Yes, the stallion = horned lord connection is a clue about greenseer steering the comet. The horned lord = the stallion, so the station who mounts the world is actually about the horned lord who will mount the world. Drogon is a horned lord, after a fashion, but I think the horned lords we are really talking about here are the ones who mounted the comet and broke the moon. The horned moon rides up the sky, the horned lord does the same. I have more than one horned lord essay coming in the near future. 21 hours ago, Ser Creighton said: Now with the horn and the relationship to the moon I generally see that as foreshadowing to what Euron wants to do. He wants to pull the moon maiden from the sky aka Dany. Generally I find in the series that when myth meets reality it's never really lived up to it's billing. The really big shit went down 10,000 years in the past, and will go down again as the series wraps up. I think the Doom gives us an inkling - nature can indeed live up the mythical billing, especially when magic is involved. 21 hours ago, Ser Creighton said: The Horn of Winter, both past and present we have never heard of seen the Wall come down. Though it draws a nice parallel to the Dragon binder, which in turn is associated with blood magic and controlling magical creatures. Waking giants from the earth can be raising the dead something associated with the Others and perhaps that means the Horn of Winter is symbolic or tied to the Others who sleep beneath the ice. Maybe something like that was used to control them. As Dragon binder may be able to bind dragons. Comets = dragons, so dragonbinder = cometbinder. And that's how the Wall will be brought down - dragon comets, perhaps summoned in part with huge of the horn. But again that is all for a future episode. Just remember the spiky iron of the Hammerhorn Keep clawing at the moon. And that is the keep of House Goodbrother, obviously not a coincidence. I'm not sure exactly what George is doing with the idea of the Grey King having a brother, but it's not an accident. 21 hours ago, Ser Creighton said: The Grey kings hall. So the this everyone basically agrees was a ship, me included, though I tend to think it is responsible for for most of the historical Iron born references. It may have been part of a larger fleet or squadron. The Iron Born seemed to have been a very primitive race at the time of this ships discovery. As we learn it pre dates their long ships and even sailing. Possible, but I do not necessarily agree. They do have a myth about the Grey King building the first longship from the hard pale wood of Ygg, so they may not have found the ribs as they are. We are told that they found the Seastone Chair and Pyke already built when they arrived, but no such claim is made for the ribs. In any case, I do agree it is very possible the ship is of foreign origin, and of course if it is, it's likely not to have been the only ship. 21 hours ago, Ser Creighton said: It may have been a raiding ship looking for slaves, a war ship, or even something like a whaler or fishing vessel as it ate Leviathans, and we have seen Leviathans in the series and they are whales. To be honest I am not so sure the Grey King is from the Iron Islands. He taught them their culture, it says he taught them to make ships and sails. Nagga may have actually been his ship and he may have had a slave from Asshai on board with him. The Iron Born practice a sort of CPR we see in the books. How would they learn that so early in culture? Well the red priests practice the last kiss. You know breath into someones mouth to bring them back to life, and it also seems to prolong life. I agree he was probably a seer but they come in different flavors so to speak. He may have some association to the Warlocks which funny enough pop up with Euron and his seeing abilities. Would it be so hard for a Warlock to make a connection from the Weirwood trees to the Shade trees? After all white and black make grey. Maybe he drank from both trees. Also how would people associated with the shade trees of Essos view the weirwoods? Interesting ideas here. I'm very open to the idea that he was not the exact same sort of greenseer Bloodraven or Bran is - my theory is that he did something bad and transformed himself, which indicates an alteration or mutation of magic. And I don't really know what George is doing with shade of the evening trees except as symbolic inversions of the weirwoods... not sure if they are important themselves or not. Anyway, as I mentioned in the episode, I do think one aspect of the sea dragon myth could be fire people coming to the Iron Islands on boats, just as Targ ships are sea dragons. I don't think that's the ONLY explanation, but it could well be part of it. Almost certainly, I would say. These are the pirates from Assahi that I have talked about at times. That's why I mentioned the passage where Asha speaks of making a new kingdom on Sea Dragon point... it's a parallel to the idea of the foreign ancestors of the Ironborn making a new kingdom on the Iron Islands (which have a point of land that thrusts into the ocean like the sea dragon and a hill with the weirwood "ribs" of a sea dragon. I also did draw a potential connection between the Ironborn resurrection ritual and the resurrection of Azor Ahai, I agree it might be part of the same idea. 21 hours ago, Ser Creighton said: In the hall one of the scenes you quote is on the Starfish table and Mother of Pearl Chairs, is also about the Mermaid wife and the Thrall of living fire. I have a different take on that. This scene actually seems to focus on femininity, the mermaid is generally classically tied to ships wrecks which is a clue about the shipwreck of course. The Starfish and Chairs seem not to relate to Sea Dragons at all, the Starfish is the symbol of the holly mother Mary, and the Mother of Pearl here we see mother symbolism again and as you know the most famous god child ever was born of the abstract personifications of Light and Night, and symbolized by a black and white pearl. And the pearl is further associated with as being symbolic in the series at Dany's wedding to Hiz when it's stated they symbolize her children. The mermaid itself has a parallel in our own mythology, the sirens of Greek mythology, though they were half bird and women and famed for luring ships to wreck. Kind of like a Harpy. I don't disagree with the symbolic associations you are bringing up, but I don't think these ideas are mutually exclusive. All of the mermaid imagery has been associated with the drowned moon goddess - that's something I didn't have time for in this essay. The moon is both a pearl and a star, a goddess who was pulled down and drowned. All the courtesans of Bravos, the ladies who live on floating pleasure barges, play into this idea (with names like "Moon Shadow," "The Veiled Lady," and of course the black pearl (black moon meteor which was drowned). Durran stealing Elenei refers to stealing a moon goddess associated with water, and the Grey King took a mermaid to wife. These are the same idea, expressing the moon drowning as a mermaid. So yes, the starfish table and mother of pearl thrones bring in a different aspect of moon lore, but we are still talking about the moon. It was a star that became a fish, and then furniture, It was also a pearl that was eventually recovered from the ocean... and made into furniture (seastone chair). The siren aspect has been realized too, as we recall that NN's scream was the sound which cracked the moon. Think of the sword Widow's Wail - that's the same sound. It appears in every Lightbringer forging metaphor. Hukko / Hugor play into this idea - seven stars were pulled down from heaven, he married a divine water woman, and he also slew swan maidens (who are like sirens). You can also flip the story around and say that the moon goddess lured the sun into coupling with her, and thereby sucked the sun of its vitality - this story is more like the Night's King and Queen, with the moon as a succubus, and also a lot like a siren. 21 hours ago, Ser Creighton said: The Hammer of the waters. I have the same stance on the Hammer of the Waters as I have always have, I don't think it's real or what mythology has made it out to be. Same with Azor and Nissa and the scaring of the moon. With the Children who are magical in nature their powers seem very much tied to seeing and skin changing. When leaf attacked the Whights she had to use a torch displaying zero offensive magic ability. It seems they can ward and do many things, but I have a problem when it comes to blowing up moons or ripping out chunks of them. One it's the single most OP power you can give anyone, who are they Galactus? The death star? 2 it's the single worse use of an OP power. Why blow up part of a moon and blow up a second moon to bring down rocks to blow something up on the planet, just blow up what is in front of you. Agree 100%. It makes no sense at all for the children to do anything that destroys the earth to save themselves. It's absolutely counter to their morals and values. Breaking the moon is even worse. They did not do it. Breaking the moon is the original sin of the story - it can only have been committed by mankind. 21 hours ago, Ser Creighton said: Lets say you can hit something with your magic whammy that is 250k miles away and put a crater in it the size of the Atikin Basin 1600 miles across what do you need to hit the moon for to get some rocks. Do they hand pick the meteorites after that and point where they want them to go? Maybe you do something like the Tycho crater, 85 km across. Why not just make a Tsunami by thinking about it? Call a storm? I mean if you got that kind of power, you should never lose any war ever and it should not even be close. Agree, and I have made this exact argument. Why not drop smaller hammers on the ring forts? One or two remote earthquake attacks would have sent the FM running. You cannot fight elves who can send remote controlled earthquakes at you. Makes no sense... because the children never did this. Also... breaking the arm after the FM have been crossing for centuries? Makes no sense, and this doubt is raised by TWOIAF deliberately to make us question the story. 21 hours ago, Ser Creighton said: Now Tycho is a great name it connects to both a crater on the moon and a great comet. So you have that symbolism of Azor when he shows up to speak with Jon. When it comes to Nissa's scar on the moon I tend to think when the story became myth the people attributed the scar on the moon to that story. I also think seers have a habit of taking credit for things they don't do true in history as well as in the series. It makes them seem powerful or more powerful in case. Natural disasters like the Doom, are said to be the work of cults and such and I tend to think even though the Valyrians were powerful, holding back a chain of Volcanoes seemed a bit much. Actually given it blew away a country and the size of the damage that should of caused a long night, it's a mega volcano essentially. Given the size displayed on the map all life should of ended and the air should be toxic, Martin blew up something the size of Texas, it's like escalating global warming by 10,000. The Arm of Dorn was nothing compared to the doom. And the doom is nothing compared to blowing giant visible craters in the moon. If this were the real world, I would agree. But it's a fantasy novel, so the simplest explanation does not cut it so simply. We know the Valyrians did in fact restrain the volcanoes, because they existed as a civilization for 5,000 years, on top of volcanoes. If they had blown their top before, we'd have heard about it, as we hear about the Doom. No, they definitely had a way to maintain the volcanoes' equilibrium, and the Faceless men seem to have disrupted whatever control mechanism they had, triggering the Doom as a pent-up reactive force that was inevitable to come at some point. As for how big a meteor strike or volcanic strike needs to be to blot out the sun for a few years but not kill all living things... well I don't think Martin is being that scientific, as this is not hard SF fiction. The meteors were big enough to cause the Long Night, and not big enough to kill everyone. That's how big they were. Not sure what else to say. You don't need to get any more precise to tell a fantasy story. 21 hours ago, Ser Creighton said: Martin had a huge problem deciding weather or not to put Dragons in the books, to magical and to powerful until a friend of his convinced him to do it. I even think the Stone singers are OP, but blowing up countries, and moons, and continental arms using magic seems a hell of a lot more OP. Maybe we do get meteorites causing damage in history and the moon was clearly hit by something. And you could even have second and third satellites that are not visible, our own planet gets temporary satellites from time to time. Most big hits probably would of had to pre date man for the most part. Agree that the second moon could have been a little asteroid grabbed by earth.. that's a more rational explanation, if one chooses to desire such. I don't really worry about that level of detail - some kind of moon like thing was hit by a comet, there was an explosion, and meteors impacted and caused the Long Night... that's good enough for me. You can think about it as a very small moon or asteroid if you want, that does make sense. Look at Phobos and Deimos, moons of mars (named after hellish things, no less). 21 hours ago, Ser Creighton said: Any of the magical looking stones just like Valyrian stone is probably spell forged by different people using slightly different magics. The Valyrians probably learned magic from Asshai and Asshai parallels the land of always winter. Agree, the Valyrians inherited the magical legacy of Azor Ahai / the Bloodstone Emperor, which is the corrupted magic and lore of the Great Empire of the Dawn. Asshai is a remnant of the GEotD, and one associated with the dark shadow fire magic of Azor Ahai. (according to me anyway). 21 hours ago, Ser Creighton said: But you never know with Martin he does odd stuff, 10 year winters and the like. People will generally migrate away from the extremely cold places because that in and of itself should kill almost everyone who experiences it. People in the middle ages had enough problems feeding themselves and getting through 4 months of winter. Feed gain will go bad, there will be nothing for the animals to eat, and everyone one should have giant storage facilities, even the average farmer should have something that looks like the Sears Tower. Yes, we can see that Martin is not worrying overmuch about logistics here. I agree with your reasoning. 21 hours ago, Ser Creighton said: The question of who put a scar on the moon, well who put all the scars on our moon? Nobody it got hit, by asteroids and such. And many in mythology will attribute stories and people to craters, stars, constellations, and other heavenly bodies just like in the books. I can see a meteor impact, and all kinds of things, I just can't attribute it's action to any person or race. Did Dany create the comet? Or summon it? Or was there a comet there and the timing fit. Martin attributes the Comet to Caesar's Comet, which suggests it was random. I don't think the Undying sent a comet and I don't think she created it and like most comets it has probably come around before. Been a very long time but it was probably here before. I don't doubt the idea of meteors and comets, I don't doubt some say they could control them perhaps by using leeches and kings blood, or that they might say the blew up a moon. But I do doubt that Martin would give anyone that level of power. I attribute most of that to Euhemerism, there are so many abstracts and personifications, metaphors, exaggerations, and adopted cultural mores mixed in. He has really done a nice job replicating mythology but I think while based off historical events, things tend to grow in the telling. I think you are letting your good sense about the real world influence your fantasy analysis, if I may say so. Again I would agree with you if this were not fantasy - the collision just happened, surely, and everyone made up myths about it, many of which ave the power and responsibility to mankind. That's the clear conclusion... if this were not fantasy. Because it is, the same logic can be applied so confidently. At first, I thought as you did - the event just happened, and the magical fallout caused all the crazy events remembered in myth on the ground, like making meteor swords and dealing with the Long Night. But, I have changed my mind, because I realized this is a Garden of Eden story - it's about original sin. The entire theme of the AA story is stealing the fire of the gods. It's a theft, an act of challenging the gods. Every single Lightbringer forging metaphor shows us AA causing the moon cracking, in my opinion. From Durran to Grey King to Azor Ahai, the pulling down of the gods is a deliberate act. It's obviously completely irrational without magic... but we have plenty of magic to go around. Somehow, some way, mankind DID break the moon, and I think Martin is cluing us in to how. That's what I have just started to lay out, though I have barely begun to present that evidence. I'm surprised you didn't comment on the Sunfyre / Moondancer scene! You have been bringing up that scene for forever, and I even set it to music for you! I was thinking of you actually when I wrote that, I was like "here's a great place to finally use that passage Ser Creighton always brings up..." especially since moondancer wears the fiery robes, just like the fiery dancers in the alchemical wedding bonfire. I think it's absolutely sick how Matin worked that correlation in TPATQ back tot he alchemical wedding in book one... I mean the man plans ahead more than people think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted September 1, 2016 Author Share Posted September 1, 2016 21 hours ago, Ser Creighton said: Just to clear something up on the Grey King. So Euron who draws a parallel to Goodbrother who desend from the brother of the Grey King draws a parallel here it's just inverted. The Grey King has this sort of wood theme as you point you out. While Euron has this red and blue theme we see it with his eyes and desires. The wood of the magic trees and the leaves of the magic trees. I am often finding clues that we are talking about 2 or even 3 brothers related to the figure of Azor Ahai, much like we have three Baratheon horned lord brothers who go the different ways. Grey King sate weirwood throne, his brother blew the horn? Mane is king beyond the wall (with his white tent surmounted by great elk antlers) but he has a right hand man who is the horn blower. Euron gave his horn to this brother as well... something is up here. Plus I think of the idea that the Stark who brought down the NK might have been his brother. I think of the endgame, which may have Jon as the King of Winter, and Bran as the Greenseer of the North - are they two different, adjunct positions? Hard to say, hard to say. Quote Euron who seems to be a Greendreamer stole the Shade of the evening from the Warlocks who draw a nice parallel to the Others with the Undying and all that. In turn Robert and the Storm lords draw some personifications of the Others. Blue eyed kings and storms, probably a horned lord connection. Yes, and we also find juxtaposition of fire an ice elsewhere. Stannis is an AA type with blue eyes... JonCon too, the red griffon reborn who has fiery red hair but "icy" blue eyes and a wolf pelt. Jon dreams of being armored in black ice and wielding a burning red sword, which is close. Hell, Ned's sword gives it to us - it's a black sword forged in dragonfire with blood magic, but it is called ice. The Others are ice demons with burning star eyes... frozen fire... it's everywhere, freezing fire and burning ice and other weird juxtapositions of the two. I do think there is a horned lord - Others connection, yes. As for Euron... he is loaded with symbolism. His eyes are the two moons his "other eye" is blue, just as one day "the other moon will kiss the sun too and crack." The blood eye or crows eye (it's called both) always has an eyepatch - sometimes a black one, sometimes a blood red one. Blood and black, in other words, and that's our destroyed fire moon. It's actually the eclipse alignment, the fire moon in front of the sun. That's also Euron's sigil, a black moon pupil over a red sun eye. His face is a sky map. The other eye awakens in space when the first eye is blinded, just as we see with Ser Waymar. His eye is bloodied by a splinter of the broken sword (which was a rain of needles, think Needle as in the sword Needle, and rain as in a storm of swords), and then the other eye turns blue. In other words, the Others were somehow a part of the fallout of the moon destruction event, and came during the long Night when the sun-moon eye (the God's Eye) was blinded. It's a version of the Odin myth, who gave up one eye to gain magical ability. Quote The Grey King in stead Red and Blue is marked by grey an mix of the two woods. He stole two things, the Storm lords being associated with the Weirwoods, will call it visions rather than fire, no need to steal fire twice. And Nagga's living flame who may have been a slave of Asshai or Valyria or red priests and ties in well to Moqorro and Vic. Who is tied to the Grey king. Cool idea, I didn't think if the living flame as a fire priest exactly, although I did suggest the Grey King became a living flame, a fiery greenseer. He didn't seal fire twice - the same act is remembered two different ways, or we might say the weirwood fire and the meteor fire are linked and part of the same event. Vic's ADWD chapters are great and i plan to get into those soon as well. Quote While the Grey King got the living fire. Euron seeks "the Fire the Life" Dany to be his wife. Some of the inversions like the Seastone Chair and the Grey Kings throne, and the crowns of Iron and Wood, I really like. The Grey (Black and White wood) and the Blue and the red seem to mix well with the second act idea of parallels and duality, the Sigil above kings landing, the Harpy, the Mermaid not just the grey king, but Manderly in the modern era, Stannis who is sort of symbolic of both Thoros and Robert or the Storm Lord and Azor, the Griffon, Nagga's bones wood that became stone, wooden throne, seastone chair. Yeah I like that, that's a storm parallel with inversion. We have a difference of opinion on some things but some of the parallels and ideas expressed are really strong. I really like them. I finished big thumbs up on a lot of this, some good stuff to think about. I have not enjoyed much on the board in awhile and I liked this, it gave me stuff to think about and some new stuff. I am even going to listen to the Tyrion pod cast when I get some time. Right on, that's part of the idea. I like to show the parallels so people can make of them what they will, whether their idea os close to my own or not. I do try to interpret the parallels and symbolism, but more important to me is simply pointing out the parallels and symbolism. I am happy if everyone is looking at that and coming up with ideas and having a discussion around it. I'm glad some of this stuff gave you food for thought, and I hope you enjoy the Tyrion Targaryen episode. But really, no comment on the moondancer scene?!? lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluetiger Posted September 2, 2016 Share Posted September 2, 2016 Do you think that this is yet another scene where George shows the moon's destruction? Quote Littlefinger shook the rain from his hair and laughed. "Now I see. Lord Arryn learned that His Grace had filled the bellies of some whores and fishwives, and for that he had to be silenced. Small wonder. Allow a man like that to live, and next he's like to blurt out that the sun rises in the east." There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not. The rain was falling harder now, stinging the eyes and drumming against the ground. Rivers of black water were running down the hill when Jory called out, "My lord," his voice hoarse with alarm. And in an instant, the street was full of soldiers. Ned glimpsed ringmail over leather, gauntlets and greaves, steel helms with golden lions on the crests. Their cloaks clung to their backs, sodden with rain. He had no time to count, but there were ten at least, a line of them, on foot, blocking the street, with longswords and iron-tipped spears. "Behind!" he heard Wyl cry, and when he turned his horse, there were more in back of them, cutting off their retreat. Jory's sword came singing from its scabbard. "Make way or die!" "The wolves are howling," their leader said. Ned could see rain running down his face. "Such a small pack, though." Littlefinger walked his horse forward, step by careful step. "What is the meaning of this? This is the Hand of the King." "He was the Hand of the King." The mud muffled the hooves of the blood bay stallion. The line parted before him. On a golden breastplate, the lion of Lannister roared its defiance. "Now, if truth be told, I'm not sure what he is." "Lannister, this is madness," Littlefinger said. "Let us pass. We are expected back at the castle. What do you think you're doing?" "He knows what he's doing," Ned said calmly. Jaime Lannister smiled. "Quite true. I'm looking for my brother. You remember my brother, don't you, Lord Stark? He was with us at Winterfell. Fair-haired, mismatched eyes, sharp of tongue. A short man." "I remember him well," Ned replied. "It would seem he has met some trouble on the road. My lord father is quite vexed. You would not perchance have any notion of who might have wished my brother ill, would you?" "Your brother has been taken at my command, to answer for his crimes," Ned Stark said. Littlefinger groaned in dismay. "My lords—" Ser Jaime ripped his longsword from its sheath and urged his stallion forward. "Show me your steel, Lord Eddard. I'll butcher you like Aerys if I must, but I'd sooner you died with a blade in your hand." He gave Littlefinger a cool, contemptuous glance. "Lord Baelish, I'd leave here in some haste if I did not care to get bloodstains on my costly clothing." Littlefinger did not need to be urged. "I will bring the City Watch," he promised Ned. The Lannister line parted to let him through, and closed behind him. Littlefinger put his heels to his mare and vanished around a corner. Ned's men had drawn their swords, but they were three against twenty. Eyes watched from nearby windows and doors, but no one was about to intervene. His party was mounted, the Lannisters on foot save for Jaime himself. A charge might win them free, but it seemed to Eddard Stark that they had a surer, safer tactic. "Kill me," he warned the Kingslayer, "and Catelyn will most certainly slay Tyrion." Jaime Lannister poked at Ned's chest with the gilded sword that had sipped the blood of the last of the Dragonkings. "Would she? The noble Catelyn Tully of Riverrun murder a hostage? I think … not." He sighed. "But I am not willing to chance my brother's life on a woman's honor." Jaime slid the golden sword into its sheath. "So I suppose I'll let you run back to Robert to tell him how I frightened you. I wonder if he'll care." Jaime pushed his wet hair back with his fingers and wheeled his horse around. When he was beyond the line of swordsmen, he glanced back at his captain. "Tregar, see that no harm comes to Lord Stark." "As you say, m'lord." "Still … we wouldn't want him to leave here entirely unchastened, so"—through the night and the rain, he glimpsed the white of Jaime's smile—"kill his men." "No!" Ned Stark screamed, clawing for his sword. Jaime was already cantering off down the street as he heard Wyl shout. Men closed from both sides. Ned rode one down, cutting at phantoms in red cloaks who gave way before him. Jory Cassel put his heels into his mount and charged. A steel-shod hoof caught a Lannister guardsman in the face with a sickening crunch. A second man reeled away and for an instant Jory was free. Wyl cursed as they pulled him off his dying horse, swords slashing in the rain. Ned galloped to him, bringing his longsword down on Tregar's helm. The jolt of impact made him grit his teeth. Tregar stumbled to his knees, his lion crest sheared in half, blood running down his face. Heward was hacking at the hands that had seized his bridle when a spear caught him in the belly. Suddenly Jory was back among them, a red rain flying from his sword. "No!" Ned shouted. "Jory, away!" Ned's horse slipped under him and came crashing down in the mud. There was a moment of blinding pain and the taste of blood in his mouth. He saw them cut the legs from Jory's mount and drag him to the earth, swords rising and falling as they closed in around him. When Ned's horse lurched back to its feet, he tried to rise, only to fall again, choking on his scream. He could see the splintered bone poking through his calf. It was the last thing he saw for a time. The rain came down and down and down. When he opened his eyes again, Lord Eddard Stark was alone with his dead. His horse moved closer, caught the rank scent of blood, and galloped away. Ned began to drag himself through the mud, gritting his teeth at the agony in his leg. It seemed to take years. Faces watched from candlelit windows, and people began to emerge from alleys and doors, but no one moved to help. Littlefinger and the City Watch found him there in the street, cradling Jory Cassel's body in his arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maester of Valyria Posted September 2, 2016 Share Posted September 2, 2016 On 29/08/2016 at 10:32 PM, LmL said: comment before you finish - with essays this long it's only fair. I encourage everyone else to do the same - you don't have to wait till the end if you notice something and have a comment. Pipe in whenever. The worst that can happen is I might say "I actually address that later." Well alright then... Hey LmL, good to see some of your stuff again! I'll get right to it: Quote The Grey King was actually said to posses fire by two different methods: by taunting the Storm God into setting a tree ablaze with a thunderbolt, and also by slaying the sea dragon Nagga. He’s got a taste for godly fire, this Grey King! Aaron Damphair gives us the quick summary of the sea dragon in A Feast for Crows: Nagga had been the first sea dragon, the mightiest ever to rise from the waves. She fed on krakens and leviathans and drowned whole islands in her wrath, yet the Grey King had slain her and the Drowned God had changed her bones to stone so that men might never cease to wonder at the courage of the first of kings. And then a bit, later, we hear about the Grey King’s possessions of the Sea Dragon’s fire: The hall had been warmed by Nagga’s living fire, which the Grey King had made his thrall. The World of Ice and Fire tells us about the stealing of fire from the Storm God’s thunderbolt: The deeds attributed to the Grey King by the priests and singers of the Iron Islands are many and marvelous. It was the Grey King who brought fire to the earth by taunting the Storm God until he lashed down with a thunderbolt, setting a tree ablaze. This doesn't necessarily point to a contradiction in the legends: it is possible that the Grey King took fire from the heavens in the thunderbolt story, but later/earlier decided to warm his hall with Nagga, perhaps to prove his might in having a sea dragon as a thrall, when he could just use 'ordinary' fire. Quote The Hammer of the Waters, another likely moon meter impact story, also involves drowning a lot of land: the formerly-whole-and-now-broken Arm of Dorne. I mentioned that Thor’s lightning hammer suggests a connection between the Storm God’s thunderbolt and the Hammer of the Waters, and the drowning of land involved in both tales does the same. As we examine the sea dragon ideas here, watch out for hammers and hammering waves. My own personal theory is that the aforementioned drowning of lots of land was a result of a large-scale sea rise, which broke the Arm and nearly snapped the Neck. Although it doesn't tally with your theories in a number of areas, there may be some stuff you could find useful. Quote The moon is the cause of the ocean tides, and tends to trigger a woman’s monthly cycle as well The link between the moon's phases and womens' menstrual cycles is extremely dubious, with many studies stating that it does not, while others make opposite claims as to its effects. Quote a moon meteor must have impacted on or near the Iron Islands, drowning the land and probably collapsing some of the land too, such as the area around Castle Pyke While I cover the 'formation' of the Iron Islands in my above theory, the collapse of the land is clearly best explained by the processes of erosion and weathering over thousands of years. ______________ Quote blood is spilled (three people at the fire for the three dragon meteors) Quote remember the idea is three dragon moon meteors descending to Planetos, with one breaking up into the meteor shower and two making large impacts Apologies: I haven't yet caught up with your last segment for fear of Winds/S6 spoilers, and I haven't read all of this theory yet. I was wondering why there are now only three dragon meteors, when your hypothesis is that the second moon split into thousands of fragments. ______________ Quote In other words, the Drowned God IS the sea dragon moon meteor, and therefore, a drowned goddess. Do you think this female connotation could have a connection to the being Nagga, who clearly has a significant role in Ironborn history? I was also wondering if you were aware of the Biblical connotation of the word Nagga-i? Quote According to my theory, the Sea Stone Chair is a piece of moon meteorite, one which was supposedly found on the shores of Old Wyk by the first people to arrive on the islands. It may be remnant of a larger meteorite from which meteoric iron to make weapons was harvested. Ironborn steel is widely regarded as of excellent quality, but are you suggesting that enough meteoric iron fell to the islands for that entire section of their economy to be born? Quote We’ve seen it said of the broken sword of land that “the waves had hammered at it day and night until the land broke and shattered, thousands of years past,” and that “the angry waves foamed and crashed” among the remains pieces of the peninsula, which are “like the pillars of some sea god’s temple.” We saw that “the sheer- sided pillar” on which the sea tower stood was “half- eaten through by the endless battering of the waves.” There’s more I could quote, but you get the idea. Could these angry waves that did so much damage in the ancient past be the ones generated by the sea dragon’s fall from the heavens? The same event which was remembered as a Hammer of the Waters breaking the land and drowning islands? Aaron Damphair, from A Feast for Crows: Once again this is a literally textbook example of erosion and weathering in action. I'm afraid I have to credit these mundane but commonplace processes over meteorite-induced tsunamis. Besides which, IIRC we are told that the cliffs are still eroding. Your point about Robert and his hammer crushing the Ironborn got me thinking. The Ironborn, being lead from Pyke (which is an analogy for Lightbringer), torched the Lannister fleet (with Lightbringer being associated with fire and light), and the Lannisters have more than a passing connection to the sun (ie with all their gold etc). Do you suppose this could be significant? Quote But Leviathan is actually a well known mythological sea creature with a very specific description: it’s a monstrous, multi-headed sea dragon. While I don't dispute the original meaning of the word Leviathan, what do you think about the way it has become a synonym for any large sea monster, especially huge whales? Apologies for the bluntness of this post: I've had to write it in a bit of a hurry and in several short intervals. I hope to finish reading your theory some time soon. Once again congratulations on another brilliant essay! Also I note that you've removed the links in your signature to your Facebook and Wordpress accounts. Was that intentional? It's just that it makes it slightly more difficult to locate the other entries in your series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted September 2, 2016 Share Posted September 2, 2016 ignore this. You already knew about the Arryns and their Weirwood Throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizz-The-Smith Posted September 3, 2016 Share Posted September 3, 2016 On 31/08/2016 at 11:50 PM, sweetsunray said: @LmL was referring to this chthonic essay with regards to WF (the first half discusses WF, godswood, the ponds, BR's cave, the underground rivers and Yggdrasil and Walhalla connections, especially the Urdardbrunnr): https://sweeticeandfiresunray.wordpress.com/2016/03/15/hades-of-winterfell-and-the-north/ Thanks for the link, I really enjoyed the read, awesome work. I am not as well versed in mythology and its potential meaning regards asoiaf. But I love to read such great analysis, and it certainly ties in with everything I've been looking at. You have my mind racing! On that note, whether looking for Chthonic evidences, or potential Greenseer King strongholds, I think I have found another 'magic castle atop a [hollow] hill'. Sam the Slayer might be a wizard yet.... Horn Hill - Horn Hill was built on top of a hill by two sons of Garth the Green, Harlon the Hunter and Herndon of the Horn. -Sam remembers a time as a child when his father threw him into a fishpond underneath the castle in an attempt to teach him how to swim. This is reminiscent of Achilles being dipped into the pool, no? Not so much dipped as thrown, but you see where I'm coming from... When he was small his lord father had tried to teach him how to swim by throwing him into the pond beneath Horn Hill. The water had gotten in his nose and in his mouth and in his lungs, and he coughed and wheezed for hours after Ser Hyle pulled him out. - A pond/pool underneath the castle would suggest that they are in a cavern. [pond 'beneath' Horn Hill] And therefore, it seems there is access to this underground cavern/pond through the castle, much like we see with the other examples I gave up thread. - History tells us that the brothers Harlon and Herndon, both wed a woods witch, and lived on for a hundred years after that. But only on one condition, that they slept with her whenever the moon was full. So there is a further connection to magic associated with Horn Hill. ----------------------------------------------------------- An underground pool, seemingly in a cavern with access from the castle [that's built on top of a hill] and in a castle associated with magic at that. Surely Harlon and Herndon were greenseers too? There has to be a load more as well, I've been checking the Garth the Green descendants and the Houses associated with them. Not much to go on as they are mainly smaller houses, all we get is that a lot of their castles are built in hilly and mountainous terrain. Of course they are. Anyway, on top of potential greenseers and chthonic evidence, there are a lot of horn references going on here, and I thought I would throw that your way LML. Horns, Horn Lords and the moon seem important at Horn Hill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted September 3, 2016 Author Share Posted September 3, 2016 2 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said: Thanks for the link, I really enjoyed the read, awesome work. I am not as well versed in mythology and its potential meaning regards asoiaf. But I love to read such great analysis, and it certainly ties in with everything I've been looking at. You have my mind racing! On that note, whether looking for Chthonic evidences, or potential Greenseer King strongholds, I think I have found another 'magic castle atop a [hollow] hill'. Sam the Slayer might be a wizard yet.... Horn Hill - Horn Hill was built on top of a hill by two sons of Garth the Green, Harlon the Hunter and Herndon of the Horn. -Sam remembers a time as a child when his father threw him into a fishpond underneath the castle in an attempt to teach him how to swim. This is reminiscent of Achilles being dipped into the pool, no? Not so much dipped as thrown, but you see where I'm coming from... When he was small his lord father had tried to teach him how to swim by throwing him into the pond beneath Horn Hill. The water had gotten in his nose and in his mouth and in his lungs, and he coughed and wheezed for hours after Ser Hyle pulled him out. - A pond/pool underneath the castle would suggest that they are in a cavern. [pond 'beneath' Horn Hill] And therefore, it seems there is access to this underground cavern/pond through the castle, much like we see with the other examples I gave up thread. - History tells us that the brothers Harlon and Herndon, both wed a woods witch, and lived on for a hundred years after that. But only on one condition, that they slept with her whenever the moon was full. So there is a further connection to magic associated with Horn Hill. ----------------------------------------------------------- An underground pool, seemingly in a cavern with access from the castle [that's built on top of a hill] and in a castle associated with magic at that. Surely Harlon and Herndon were greenseers too? There has to be a load more as well, I've been checking the Garth the Green descendants and the Houses associated with them. Not much to go on as they are mainly smaller houses, all we get is that a lot of their castles are built in hilly and mountainous terrain. Of course they are. Anyway, on top of potential greenseers and chthonic evidence, there are a lot of horn references going on here, and I thought I would throw that your way LML. Horns, Horn Lords and the moon seem important at Horn Hill. I'm on mobile and short on time, but Google "Hern the Hunter" and you'll see he is but on version of the green man / horned god mythological archetype. I've actually spent some time breaking down all the children of Garth the Green, as they correlate to the zodiac. But to your point, yes, naming one of them Herndon is a giveaway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted September 3, 2016 Author Share Posted September 3, 2016 13 hours ago, Blue Tiger said: Do you think that this is yet another scene where George shows the moon's destruction? Yes, for sure, though you cut out too early - there is a reference to the stones of the Red Keep looking bloody in the rain. There is definitely some astronomy going on in this scene, but 1.) I haven't read it in a long time and don't have an analysis ready; and 2.) It's kind of a fucked up parallel, not necessarily a clear one. Ned (who is generally speaking a moon character) split the lion on the helm in half, and usually it's the sun that does the comet splitting. Jaime is the solar figure, while his soldiers are red phantoms, which means they are playing the role of lightbringer, the red weapon of the sun. Thus Treggar's helm being split might be a comet splitting... but it's not very obvious. Ned and his men being "pulled down to earth" is a pretty good one, as is back water running down the street as the red phantoms appear, and of course the "red rain" of blood from Jory's sword, which alludes to the Valyrian steel sword Red Rain and the concept of meteor rain - the "storm of swords." Basically, I can see some of the things going on there, but it's kind of muddled. I might use it if I ever go back to the concept of the meteor shower as rain, which is pretty well depicted here. The rain makes a black river, then it makes the red stone of the Red Keep look bloody, plus Jory's Red Rain. In fact I'd say that's the best symbolism in this scene - the storm of swords. I will eventually be doing a Ned-centric study, so I suppose I'll have to come back to this scene at that time. Tell me truly: it's pretty fun to be reading or listening to the book and all the sudden, you start seeing astronomy symbolism going on, and all of the words begin to sound different and new meanings start to pop out. You think you might be off your rocker for a second, but then the double means stack up consistently all through the scene, as it does with the rain and water in this chapter. Anyway, it's a lot of fun. None of it makes any sense unless you isolate the core themes and understand how they relate to Lightbringer and the moon disaster.. but of course that's what my podcast is all about, and once you do have the basic concept of mythical astronomy down, you can start to see the extra layer of meaning and symbol that Martin has woven into the story. The books are enjoyable in a whole new way... basically, just think about them as very detailed lost Greek myths, written to contain symbolic double meaning in almost every action, description, and character. I could go on and on, but the point is, I am tremendously happy to hear you and others having fun and finding things in the books. That's essentially what make me feel the most fulfilled with this whole project and the time I've put into it. It's not about being right in every aspect of my theorizing, but just pointing out the mythical astronomy symbolism in the books in general, and to get people talking about it. I think it's just fantastically cool, and since he's put all this thought into crafting it, it's only appropriate that we all appreciate it. That's really what fires me up about all of this, so every time someone comes back to me with some passage they've noticed.... it's terrific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted September 3, 2016 Author Share Posted September 3, 2016 10 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said: Well alright then... Hey LmL, good to see some of your stuff again! I'll get right to it: Hey @Maester of Valyria, thanks for reading, glad you enjoyed it. A few general remarks before I address some of your points. All of your arguments make a lot of sense and if we were analyzing real world myth and history, your conclusions would be the most probable and plausible ones, no doubt. And I am not throwing them out wholesale by simply saying "...but it's fantasy." I think we'd both agree Martin has built a fantasy world that tries to feel realistic, like an alternate middle ages with magic or some thing, and therefore applying real world logic is appropriate and valuable as way of analyzing ASOIAF. However (you knew there was a however coming), the entire foundation of my body of work is that Martin is creating a symbolic parallel between the events of the Long Night, both sky and ground, to scenes in the main novels. The birthing of the dragons scene with Daenerys is the most clear example, and it demonstrates the idea very well - the scene itself combines the Lightbringer myth and the Qarthine origin of dragons myth into one, while also referencing the hammer of the waters and the storm god's thunderbolt (that is something addressed further on in this episode, you may not have gotten there yet). Point being, we can use this knowledge to decode the mysteries of these big cataclysm events by analyzing scenes which reference or re-enact their corresponding myths. In my theorizing, I attempt to use reason and logic to interpret the symbolism, or said another way, I do a lot of symbolic analysis, but I always view it in the context of what makes sense from a narrative perspective and somewhat logical perspective. I attempt to combine both approaches, in other words. But what you are doing with your analysis, as best as I can tell, is primarily relying on logic deduction based on your knowledge of the real world (and you seem like a learned fellow). Therefore, when you say certain things like "isn't it more likely by far that _____ happened," I can't really disagree wither reasoning, but my first response is always "you aren't considering the symbolism." Of course I could be wrong, I don't know everything you're thinking about, but what I see in your comments consistently here is a strictly rational approach. I'll do my best to answer, but I thought it useful to address that basic difference in our analysis first. Apologies if that was boring to anyone else reading. 10 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said: This doesn't necessarily point to a contradiction in the legends: it is possible that the Grey King took fire from the heavens in the thunderbolt story, but later/earlier decided to warm his hall with Nagga, perhaps to prove his might in having a sea dragon as a thrall, when he could just use 'ordinary' fire. As you will see later on in the episode, I don't think they are contradicting stories, but rather two myths talking about related events. This is probably a "read the rest and then we'll talk about this" topic. 10 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said: My own personal theory is that the aforementioned drowning of lots of land was a result of a large-scale sea rise, which broke the Arm and nearly snapped the Neck. Although it doesn't tally with your theories in a number of areas, there may be some stuff you could find useful. I am pretty sure we've talked about this topic a few times - I do think the evidence points to sea level rise and a global warming pattern since the Long Night or sometimes thereafter. All the drying out in the east... I tend to think that in the Dawn Age, the line of demarcation between frozen north and habitable land in Westeros was further south. But no, it doesn't jibe with my theories, which pin the Breaking and the Hammer on the moon meteors. I feel like the symbolic evidence for this is overwhelming. Not sure if you read / listened to my fourth episode, The Mountain vs. The Viper and the Hammer of the Waters, but that's where I laid out a lot of the initial evidence for that. One of my favorite stupid little clues is the fact that one of the Stepstones Islands is named Bloodstone. 10 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said: The link between the moon's phases and womens' menstrual cycles is extremely dubious, with many studies stating that it does not, while others make opposite claims as to its effects. LoL dude, you're being too literal. Doesn't matter if it's true or not, what matters is that it been an association made by humans for thousands of years. I mean, sure, duly noted in all, but the point if me bringing it up and Martin using it is that its an association people make. 10 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said: While I cover the 'formation' of the Iron Islands in my above theory, the collapse of the land is clearly best explained by the processes of erosion and weathering over thousands of years. Yes, again, if this were real world myth and history and not a fantasy novel. Surely the waves have indeed eroded the land as waves do.. but that's why he tells us that the point of land on which Pyke sits once thrust into the bowels of the sea like a longsword while the comet hangs in the air above the castle... and all the rest of the symbolism I laid out in the episode. A bit further on, I show that the myth of slaying a sea dragon which drowns whole islands is simply martin's version of the universal dragon slayer myths of eastern and central Asia, and slaying the dragon always brings a flood. That's why the sea dragon drown whole islands... because ocean impacts of meteors (dragons) do indeed cause massive tidal waves that drown the land. I am not saying those tidal waves instantly changed the Iron Islands to their current shape. I have no idea. There may have been earthquakes involved in the Long Night megadisaster. Look at Moat Cailin - it screams of earthquake to me. In any case, the sea dragon is clearly associated with flooding, which make perfect sense if the sea dragon is a meteor strike. 10 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said: ______________ Apologies: I haven't yet caught up with your last segment for fear of Winds/S6 spoilers, and I haven't read all of this theory yet. I was wondering why there are now only three dragon meteors, when your hypothesis is that the second moon split into thousands of fragments. So I'm hesitant to get to specific and firm in my interpretation here, but there are two primary depictions of the meteor shower. It's either a thousand fiery somethings (occasionally with and 'and 1,' as in 'a thousand eyes and one'), and then the three heads of the dragon idea. I am not sure exactly what George means - perhaps the three dragons idea means three major impact sites that we care about, or it could be three different places where humans did something with meteorites. I don't know. But frequently, like at Dany's dragon waking scene, three dragon things wake from the moon burning and cracking. Other times, a thousand things wake. So maybe three big meteors, and one of them breaks up like Tunguska but bigger and gives us the thousand meteors. I've seen some scenes which suggest that. 10 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said: ______________ Do you think this female connotation could have a connection to the being Nagga, who clearly has a significant role in Ironborn history? I was also wondering if you were aware of the Biblical connotation of the word Nagga-i? LoL, keep reading 10 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said: Ironborn steel is widely regarded as of excellent quality, but are you suggesting that enough meteoric iron fell to the islands for that entire section of their economy to be born? No, I am suggesting that it's possible that the legends of the ancient Ironborn having magical black weapons which drank peoples souls or something like that could be reference to the kinds of weapons you get from oily black meteorite stone, which according to my theory, is what Lightbringer was made of. Also, I am suggesting that the Ironborn tradition of making iron weapons was learned from non-First Men ancestors who came to the Iron Islands by boat, people who are connected to Azor Ahai and his technology (keep reading). The tradition and knowledge of iron working may be a legacy of that time, which is why the Ironborn were out in front of everyone for a long time. That's why I brought up the burning brand as another depiction of the general idea of the Ironborn bringing fire out of the sea, because the burning brand is a Lightbringer symbol, as pointed out by Aeron. A drowned god who has lightbringer's fire - that's the moon meteor. And someone or something brought it's fire out of the sea - that idea is depicted several different ways, as I tried to show in the essay. 10 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said: Once again this is a literally textbook example of erosion and weathering in action. I'm afraid I have to credit these mundane but commonplace processes over meteorite-induced tsunamis. Besides which, IIRC we are told that the cliffs are still eroding. Sure, sure, but that language here is also clear in its reference to hammers and angry gods. I'm drawing attention to the specific wording. You can make argument based on what is logical more likely in a real-world scenario, but you aren't addressing the symbolism on which my conclusion are based. 10 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said: Your point about Robert and his hammer crushing the Ironborn got me thinking. The Ironborn, being lead from Pyke (which is an analogy for Lightbringer), torched the Lannister fleet (with Lightbringer being associated with fire and light), and the Lannisters have more than a passing connection to the sun (ie with all their gold etc). Do you suppose this could be significant? Yes, any time you see a symbol of the meteors (which us what the Ironborn are, iron men carrying burning brands who are like an iron tide) attacking the sun or a sun figure, it's a reference to the meteor impacts darkening the sky and blotting out the sun. That is how the sun dies, through the darkening of the sky, and that happens because of them meteors. It creates a 'son taking revenge on the father' narrative, one which is popular in world mythology. However, I would need to look at the exact passage you are referring to see what Martin is doing with his choice of wording to really say what is going on. But yes! That could be something. 10 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said: While I don't dispute the original meaning of the word Leviathan, what do you think about the way it has become a synonym for any large sea monster, especially huge whales? I think it gives Martin a covert way to use the word leviathan without drawing attention to it. For example, he uses Sam as a moon figure and specifically a sea dragon in the Nightfort scene with Bran. After the weirwood looks as though it is trying to pull the moon down into the well, and after Hodor drops a rock down into the well, Sam the black leviathan emerges to flop around in a puddle of moonlight like a fish. Sam is called a leviathan by Lazy leo, who is thinking of whales, but the label allows Sam (who also has a moon face four different times) to show us the moon becoming a black leviathan who has the "light in the darkness" and the blessing of the weirwoodnet. I need to look at the scenes with Yezzan the yellow leviathan to see what Martin might be doing symbolically beatnik all the shit and piss and pale mare. 10 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said: Apologies for the bluntness of this post: I've had to write it in a bit of a hurry and in several short intervals. I hope to finish reading your theory some time soon. Once again congratulations on another brilliant essay! Cool man, glad you enjoyed it, but definitely finish it up and come back and tell me what you think, as I address may of the whitings you brought up. Really appreciate the kind words, and no apologies necessary by any means. 10 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said: Also I note that you've removed the links in your signature to your Facebook and Wordpress accounts. Was that intentional? It's just that it makes it slightly more difficult to locate the other entries in your series. If you click on the one link that is there, you go to lucifermeanslightbringer.com, and every page on that site has a directory of all my essays, so it should be easy to find whatever you are looking for. By the way, as for spoilers in the Tyrion Targaryen episode, there is one spoiler at the neighing from the TV seasons 6, in case you were not watching, and a teeny tiny spoiler from a Tyrion chapter of TWOW, but it's nothing to worry about at all. Just more preparation for the battle which is about to start. Tyrion's playing more chess, the battle is about to start, that's about it. Not even enough to spoiler tag - we already knew the battle was starting from Barristan's last chapter and Victarion's last chapter, and we already know Tyron plays a lot of chess - I mean cyvasse. So don't worry too much about spoilers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted September 3, 2016 Author Share Posted September 3, 2016 5 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said: Thanks for the link, I really enjoyed the read, awesome work. I am not as well versed in mythology and its potential meaning regards asoiaf. But I love to read such great analysis, and it certainly ties in with everything I've been looking at. You have my mind racing! On that note, whether looking for Chthonic evidences, or potential Greenseer King strongholds, I think I have found another 'magic castle atop a [hollow] hill'. Sam the Slayer might be a wizard yet.... Horn Hill - Horn Hill was built on top of a hill by two sons of Garth the Green, Harlon the Hunter and Herndon of the Horn. -Sam remembers a time as a child when his father threw him into a fishpond underneath the castle in an attempt to teach him how to swim. This is reminiscent of Achilles being dipped into the pool, no? Not so much dipped as thrown, but you see where I'm coming from... When he was small his lord father had tried to teach him how to swim by throwing him into the pond beneath Horn Hill. The water had gotten in his nose and in his mouth and in his lungs, and he coughed and wheezed for hours after Ser Hyle pulled him out. - A pond/pool underneath the castle would suggest that they are in a cavern. [pond 'beneath' Horn Hill] And therefore, it seems there is access to this underground cavern/pond through the castle, much like we see with the other examples I gave up thread. - History tells us that the brothers Harlon and Herndon, both wed a woods witch, and lived on for a hundred years after that. But only on one condition, that they slept with her whenever the moon was full. So there is a further connection to magic associated with Horn Hill. ----------------------------------------------------------- An underground pool, seemingly in a cavern with access from the castle [that's built on top of a hill] and in a castle associated with magic at that. Surely Harlon and Herndon were greenseers too? There has to be a load more as well, I've been checking the Garth the Green descendants and the Houses associated with them. Not much to go on as they are mainly smaller houses, all we get is that a lot of their castles are built in hilly and mountainous terrain. Of course they are. Anyway, on top of potential greenseers and chthonic evidence, there are a lot of horn references going on here, and I thought I would throw that your way LML. Horns, Horn Lords and the moon seem important at Horn Hill. I also really like this find as an addition to the list - it's a definite score. It's a hollow hill, with a cavern big enough to have something called a "pond." Here's the quick version of how I interpret this: Lightbringer is a dragon comet. Dragons have horns. The horn symbolism of this whole deal involves both horns of horned animals and horns that you blow - which are actually the horns of animals anyway. But point is, he's using both the sound and projectile aspect of the horn, plus a few others, and of course the lunar horns. In any case, what we have in the legend is a moon maiden who has to be impregnated when the moon is full (full moon = pregnant moon, or an egg-like moon) by two different stag men, two different horns. So.. a pair of horns, such as a dragon or stag has. A pair of comets, in other words. One maiden, two horns - that's the split comet perhaps, both heading to the moon. My theory has one missing the moon of course, but just barely, so it's not a perfect match. My other guess would be the two horned brothers might be the two moons (think horned moons) and the maiden would be the sun, like the female Maiden Made of Light which is the sun (she's modeled on the Japanese solar goddess Amaterasu). The horned person or god or goddess is a complicated symbol - it can sometimes denote lunar horns, as it does with Isis, the horned lunar goddess associated with cows and cow horns. But Cerrunos and the celtic horned god variants are male, solar figures. And in ASOIAF, George switches gender quite often, with male moon characters and female solar characters... and either gender can be Azor Ahai reborn / the moon meteors. I have actually been interpreting the stag figures and horned figures as representing the conjunction of sun and moon which I believe occurred before impact and explosion (remember that the moon wandered too close to the sun, indicating an eclipse). The main importance of the horned people in ASOIAF is terrestrial, imo, and involves the green men on the Isle of Faces and the first human greenseers. That' where this series is going, as a matter of fact - the greenseer transformed by fire magic idea I introduced in this episode is what I will be exploring in the near future. I believe those were the mysteries horned folk which seem to have left such a strong impression on Westeros (the Storm Lords have been dressing up like them for 8,000 years!!) In fact, that's why green and gold and antlered helmed Renly, summer king of the knights of summer, is the king of Highgarden and the Reach - they recognized a Garth the Green horned god type when they saw one! You'll remember what happens to Renly - he's sacrificed by Lightbringer's dark shadow, only to be resurrected as a fiery horned god leading an army of demons in steel at the Battle of the Blackwater. That's the first thing I am honing in on - the idea of the stag man transforming via fire to become a fiery greenseer. The stag antlers are basically the same as the weirwood crown of the Grey King, because in horned god tradition, wearing branch son your head is done as a symbol of the antlers of the stag. It's easy to see the resemblance of course. Anyway, I am giving away my next episode. I gotta run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluetiger Posted September 3, 2016 Share Posted September 3, 2016 Quote Tell me truly: it's pretty fun to be reading or listening to the book and all the sudden, you start seeing astronomy symbolism going on, and all of the words begin to sound different and new meanings start to pop out. You think you might be off your rocker for a second, but then the double means stack up consistently all through the scene, as it does with the rain and water in this chapter. Anyway, it's a lot of fun. None of it makes any sense unless you isolate the core themes and understand how they relate to Lightbringer and the moon disaster.. but of course that's what my podcast is all about, and once you do have the basic concept of mythical astronomy down, you can start to see the extra layer of meaning and symbol that Martin has woven into the story. The books are enjoyable in a whole new way... basically, just think about them as very detailed lost Greek myths, written to contain symbolic double meaning in almost every action, description, and character. I could go on and on, but the point is, I am tremendously happy to hear you and others having fun and finding things in the books. That's essentially what make me feel the most fulfilled with this whole project and the time I've put into it. It's not about being right in every aspect of my theorizing, but just pointing out the mythical astronomy symbolism in the books in general, and to get people talking about it. I think it's just fantastically cool, and since he's put all this thought into crafting it, it's only appropriate that we all appreciate it. That's really what fires me up about all of this, so every time someone comes back to me with some passage they've noticed.... it's terrific. Yeah... that's how I feel I finally bought English SoS and Clash ( I had only Feast and Dance I previously), and when my GoT arrives, I'll probably start re-reading whole series once again.... focusing on Astronomy this time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted September 3, 2016 Share Posted September 3, 2016 4 hours ago, LmL said: In fact, that's why green and gold and antlered helmed Renly, summer king of the knights of summer, is the king of Highgarden and the Reach - they recognized a Garth the Green horned god type when they saw one! You'll remember what happens to Renly - he's sacrificed by Lightbringer's dark shadow, only to be resurrected as a fiery horned god leading an army of demons in steel at the Battle of the Blackwater. That's the first thing I am honing in on - the idea of the stag man transforming via fire to become a fiery greenseer. Very enjoyable read! Just a couple of comments; thoughts triggered by the above statement. I like the idea of the fiery greenseer. It fits with Mirri Maaz Duur's ritual calling on the ancient powers; the great wolf and the man limned in flame. Also recalling that when Melisandre asks R'hllor to show her his instruments; she sees Bloodraven, Bran and then Jon in the fire. Can we say they are limned in fire? I think the importance of Garth the Greenseers bloodline to the story is being overlooked. At least it never occurred to me that it might be important to the story; until I read this OP. There are some curious statements I'd like to pass by you. When Ned and Robert go to Lyanna's grave; Ned says: Lyanna was .... (pause) fond of flowers. Why he checked himself is curious. It occurs to me that Flowers is a bastard name. The question that follows is whether or not he was thinking about Jon. Is it possible that Jon is a Snow according to where he was raised and a Flowers according to where he was born. I know this flies in the face of convection but in digging around the history of Garth Greenseer; I also came across these statements: When a wolf descends upon your flocks, all you gain by killing him is a short respite, for other wolves will come. If instead you feed the wolf and tame him and turn his pups into your guard dogs, they will protect the flock when the pack comes ravening. - King Garth IX Gardener. They gave us seven gods, we gave them dirt and daughters, *and our sons and grandsons shall be as brothers.[1]- King Gwayne V Gardener. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Three_Sage_Kings * This is echoed by Ned who says "Let them be brothers," without any real context. The symbolism of blue roses might have as much of a connection to House Gardener as it does with House Stark. The Battle of Three Armies was a battle between House Gardener of the Reach and an alliance of House Durrandon of the stormlands and House Lannister of the Rock.[1] In his last and greatest war, King Garth VII Gardener of the Reach faced an alliance between the Storm King and the King of the Rock, who intended to divide the Reach between them. Garth defeated them both, and then with cunning words he sowed such discord between the two kings that they turned on each other with great slaughter. In the aftermath Garth married his daughters to their heirs and signed a pact with each, thereby fixing the borders between their three kingdoms. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Durrandon The Battle of Three Armies seems to be in replay in the current story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maester of Valyria Posted September 3, 2016 Share Posted September 3, 2016 6 hours ago, LmL said: Hey @Maester of Valyria, thanks for reading, glad you enjoyed it. A few general remarks before I address some of your points. Your explanations surrounding the symbolism make a lot of sense. I appreciate that I have a tendency to seek out the most rational explanations given the known laws of Martin-world, but I know that this is sometimes a bit of a weakness. Many thanks for taking the time to explain it to me (I really should have got this by now!). Quote I am pretty sure we've talked about this topic a few times - I do think the evidence points to sea level rise and a global warming pattern since the Long Night or sometimes thereafter. All the drying out in the east... I tend to think that in the Dawn Age, the line of demarcation between frozen north and habitable land in Westeros was further south. But no, it doesn't jibe with my theories, which pin the Breaking and the Hammer on the moon meteors. I feel like the symbolic evidence for this is overwhelming. Not sure if you read / listened to my fourth episode, The Mountain vs. The Viper and the Hammer of the Waters, but that's where I laid out a lot of the initial evidence for that. One of my favorite stupid little clues is the fact that one of the Stepstones Islands is named Bloodstone. I did read it, and I found it very interesting. It always amazes me how much symbolism can be crammed into one chapter! And I'm glad that we agree on the fact of the sea level rise, if not its exact causes. Quote Yes, again, if this were real world myth and history and not a fantasy novel. Surely the waves have indeed eroded the land as waves do.. but that's why he tells us that the point of land on which Pyke sits once thrust into the bowels of the sea like a longsword while the comet hangs in the air above the castle... and all the rest of the symbolism I laid out in the episode. A bit further on, I show that the myth of slaying a sea dragon which drowns whole islands is simply martin's version of the universal dragon slayer myths of eastern and central Asia, and slaying the dragon always brings a flood. That's why the sea dragon drown whole islands... because ocean impacts of meteors (dragons) do indeed cause massive tidal waves that drown the land. I am not saying those tidal waves instantly changed the Iron Islands to their current shape. I have no idea. There may have been earthquakes involved in the Long Night megadisaster. Look at Moat Cailin - it screams of earthquake to me. In any case, the sea dragon is clearly associated with flooding, which make perfect sense if the sea dragon is a meteor strike. On that last point we can agree completely. If you're interested in the possibility of earthquakes (I've given geological processes some serious thought in the past) then the Iron Islands' peaks look slightly like extinct volcanic ones (although I confess that I'm not sure how much supporting evidence there is in the text) and the Lonely Light is probably volcanic. Of course, earthquakes often go hand in hand with volcanoes, so you may find this interesting to look at. Quote So I'm hesitant to get to specific and firm in my interpretation here, but there are two primary depictions of the meteor shower. It's either a thousand fiery somethings (occasionally with and 'and 1,' as in 'a thousand eyes and one'), and then the three heads of the dragon idea. I am not sure exactly what George means - perhaps the three dragons idea means three major impact sites that we care about, or it could be three different places where humans did something with meteorites. I don't know. But frequently, like at Dany's dragon waking scene, three dragon things wake from the moon burning and cracking. Other times, a thousand things wake. So maybe three big meteors, and one of them breaks up like Tunguska but bigger and gives us the thousand meteors. I've seen some scenes which suggest that. I've watched all of S6 now (less of a dissappointment than I'd expected) and I've read all the Winds chapters. But still, that's a very interesting idea and I look forward to reading more. When you say 'three major impact sites' which ones would you be refering to? I'm guessing Starfall, the Bloodstone, and...the Shrinking Sea? Gods Eye? (for the latter, the geological evidence is overwhelmingly supportive of a glacial formation). Quote No, I am suggesting that it's possible that the legends of the ancient Ironborn having magical black weapons which drank peoples souls or something like that could be reference to the kinds of weapons you get from oily black meteorite stone, which according to my theory, is what Lightbringer was made of. ... And someone or something brought it's fire out of the sea - that idea is depicted several different ways, as I tried to show in the essay. Ah of course, silly me! As for your latter point, do you suppose that the whole 'fire from the sea' thing might be a reference to a volcanic island? The Lonely Light, for instance... Quote Sure, sure, but that language here is also clear in its reference to hammers and angry gods. I'm drawing attention to the specific wording. You can make argument based on what is logical more likely in a real-world scenario, but you aren't addressing the symbolism on which my conclusion are based. I'll bear that in mind. Quote However, I would need to look at the exact passage you are referring to see what Martin is doing with his choice of wording to really say what is going on. But yes! That could be something. Thanks for the explanation; glad I could contribute something! Quote Cool man, glad you enjoyed it, but definitely finish it up and come back and tell me what you think, as I address may of the whitings you brought up. Really appreciate the kind words, and no apologies necessary by any means. I look forward to finishing it! May take me a while though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted September 3, 2016 Author Share Posted September 3, 2016 1 hour ago, Maester of Valyria said: Your explanations surrounding the symbolism make a lot of sense. I appreciate that I have a tendency to seek out the most rational explanations given the known laws of Martin-world, but I know that this is sometimes a bit of a weakness. Many thanks for taking the time to explain it to me (I really should have got this by now!). Right on man, I think it's healthy and wonderful to analyze ASOIAF from different approaches, because they turn up different connections and ideas. The symbolism wouldn't be worth writing about if the conclusions it led to didn't make any rational sense, so I value the act of cross referencing one to the other 1 hour ago, Maester of Valyria said: I did read it, and I found it very interesting. It always amazes me how much symbolism can be crammed into one chapter! And I'm glad that we agree on the fact of the sea level rise, if not its exact causes. Word! I definitely do agree there In general I think Martin is borrowing from the real world timeline The Long Night event was about 10,000 years ago, correlating to the myth of Atlantis's destruction and the dramatic sea level rise of 12,000 BC - 7,000 BC as the last ice age began to come to a violent end in fits of glacial meltwater flooding and ice sheet collapse We've been basically warming ever since, and it looks more or less the same in ASOIAF. In the Thousand Islands (was George hungry when he wrote that?) there are carved stone images below the waterline only visible at low tide, which most likely used to be above the waterline. And I would guess that although the Hammer of the Waters impact would have done a lot of damage, a lot more of the arm has surely been submerged over time by natural processes too. The Hammer event recalls a disastrous impact on the Arm, but that doesn't mean it's entirely responsible for the state it's in now. If sea levels are rising, then by necessity much of it has been covered for that reason. 1 hour ago, Maester of Valyria said: On that last point we can agree completely. If you're interested in the possibility of earthquakes (I've given geological processes some serious thought in the past) then the Iron Islands' peaks look slightly like extinct volcanic ones (although I confess that I'm not sure how much supporting evidence there is in the text) and the Lonely Light is probably volcanic. Of course, earthquakes often go hand in hand with volcanoes, so you may find this interesting to look at. What about Old Wyk? Honestly, Great Wyk and Old Wyk look like a caldera island setup, with Great Wyk being the crescent shaped remnant of the last caldera and Old Wyk the new volcano rising again. That doesn't make rational sense though - Nagga's bones have been on Old Wyk for thousands of years and have clearly not seen a volcanic eruption. So I've never done anything with that idea. But sure - a fire rising from the sea could be a volcano, certainly, at least in theory. The closest thing I coul find to this idea in terms of symbolism is the Fist of the First Men motif - a fist rising to the sky from the earth. Storm's End is also described as a fist rising from the earth. I have primarily linked this idea to the plumes of smoke which rose from the impact sites to kill the sun. That's like when fallen Gregor reaches up with his smoking fist to kill Oberyn and pull him down. I haven't found a lot of volcano symbolism, and so haven't gone in that direction, but maybe I just haven't found it yet I'm keeping the idea in the back of my mind. 1 hour ago, Maester of Valyria said: I've watched all of S6 now (less of a dissappointment than I'd expected) and I've read all the Winds chapters. But still, that's a very interesting idea and I look forward to reading more. Yeah this season was actually pretty good - it's funny how it swings back and forth - S5 almost made me quit, but I am glad I watched 6. I was going to avoid it but it seemed useless to try to hide from spoilers. I view show events the same is in-world tumors and scuttlebut. We suspect something similar to the show events may be the truth, but we don't know how and which ones and what might be totally false. That seems to work for me. 1 hour ago, Maester of Valyria said: When you say 'three major impact sites' which ones would you be refering to? I'm guessing Starfall, the Bloodstone, and...the Shrinking Sea? Gods Eye? (for the latter, the geological evidence is overwhelmingly supportive of a glacial formation). Iron Islands and Hammer of be Waters in Westeros, and the other impact site would probably be in the Shadowlands. Remember that the Bloodstone Emperor worshipped a black stone that fell from the sky at the time of the Long Night... that indicates one of them fell out east. Plus, Asshai is made of oily black stone. I don't think that's all meteorite stone, but rather stone that was burnt and corrupted by the moon meteor impact on the area, something like that. Maybe the impact upriver from Asshai just poisons all the land on the peninsula and turns it all oily and black over time. 1 hour ago, Maester of Valyria said: Ah of course, silly me! As for your latter point, do you suppose that the whole 'fire from the sea' thing might be a reference to a volcanic island? The Lonely Light, for instance... I'll bear that in mind. Thanks for the explanation; glad I could contribute something! I look forward to finishing it! May take me a while though... Right on Maester, your scholarly wisdom is welcome and appreciated. I also appreciate that you are coming from a different approach and that you can still enjoy what I am doing. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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