Floki of the Ironborn Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 Given that the Neck is huge, that the crannogmen tend to stay outside of many conflicts, and that they are pretty much impossible to attack on their home turf, one would assume that the Neck must be filled with a large population, no? Unless the living conditions are so bad that they have short lifespans or regular casualties to famine and the dangers of the Neck itself. But then if it's so bad to live there, why would they have remained there for so long? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theblackdragonI Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 I would say a couple thousand, but I'm not sure how many are fighting men. While on this topic, why did no men of House Reed follow Robb to war? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 34 minutes ago, theblackdragonI said: I would say a couple thousand, but I'm not sure how many are fighting men. While on this topic, why did no men of House Reed follow Robb to war? Robb's orders to protect the Neck. I've sent word to Howland Reed, Father's old friend at Greywater Watch. If the Lannisters come up the Neck, the crannogmen will bleed them every step of the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 It looks like the neck is roughly as large as the Umber lands (60k sq miles*) if not larger. We know they don't have traditional agriculture per the world book and Jojen/Meera, so the density is going to be quite low. Even if we assume .5 persons every square mile -- that's 1/16th that of Siberia -- they have maybe 30K people living all over the neck. I think that's a bit low myself, but I don't see how it can go any lower. * based off of borders jon states and some other posts on the topic 38 minutes ago, theblackdragonI said: I would say a couple thousand, but I'm not sure how many are fighting men. While on this topic, why did no men of House Reed follow Robb to war? Robb told Howland to bleed the Lannisters if they came up the causeway and I'm assuming they contributed some men to the garrison at MC too. He did the same for Manderly, but he has greater resources *and* the crannogmen are better as guerilla fighters apparently. Based on what we know of Howland's training at arms, he wouldn't do real well against typical heavy infantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floki of the Ironborn Posted August 31, 2016 Author Share Posted August 31, 2016 I find it hard to believe that they'd only be able to supply a couple thousand fighters. If Tywin were to invade the Neck, even with all the environmental obstacles, House Reed and their bannermen would need more than that to stop them. And Robb would know that. And yet he leaves them to guard the North for him. So they must have a significant force hidden away, albeit useless in traditional warfare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 6 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said: I find it hard to believe that they'd only be able to supply a couple thousand fighters. If Tywin were to invade the Neck, even with all the environmental obstacles, House Reed and their bannermen would need more than that to stop them. And Robb would know that. And yet he leaves them to guard the North for him. So they must have a significant force hidden away, albeit useless in traditional warfare. The Kingsroad there is a narrow causeway and at the end there is Moat Cailin that was manned by a different garrison. The idea was to do weeks of guerilla attacks with poisoned arrows while the Lannisters were stuck there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 5 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said: I find it hard to believe that they'd only be able to supply a couple thousand fighters. If Tywin were to invade the Neck, even with all the environmental obstacles, House Reed and their bannermen would need more than that to stop them. And Robb would know that. And yet he leaves them to guard the North for him. So they must have a significant force hidden away, albeit useless in traditional warfare. Typically 1% of the medieval population was raised to fight, often far less. The IB seem to have an advantage since they raid or fish for most of their food. The crannogmen cannot grow crops so ostensibly they have to fish and trap for most of their food, which might make them be able to raise a higher percentage to fight. The biggest issue is gathering the men, like in the rest of the north, except this is through hostile swamp and water to places that don't stay moored to a single spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GallowsKnight Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 11 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said: Given that the Neck is huge, that the crannogmen tend to stay outside of many conflicts, and that they are pretty much impossible to attack on their home turf, one would assume that the Neck must be filled with a large population, no? Unless the living conditions are so bad that they have short lifespans or regular casualties to famine and the dangers of the Neck itself. But then if it's so bad to live there, why would they have remained there for so long? Why does anyone stay anywhere terrible? They were born there and it isn't easy to leave. But I think it probably isn't that bad. I tend to think the neck probably has a micro climate from peat bogs and springs that makes it warmer than the rest of the north during winter. This explains why lizard lions are able to survive if they are alligators. But there population is probably smaller because they seem to be more nomadic. They probably hunt lizard lions, catch frogs, gather wild plants etc instead of farming. I tend to also believe Greywater watch is a fortification on a barge that can be steered through the deeper swamps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Vance II Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 14 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said: they have maybe 30K people living all over the neck. That seems right to me. I mean, the land is pretty terrible right? The Crannogmen seem to be one step above hunter-gatherers...if you could herd sheep or cows I don't think you'd make frogs a staple. Lack of agriculture usually means low population growth as well. 13 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said: I find it hard to believe that they'd only be able to supply a couple thousand fighters. I feel like since they're masters of non-traditional warfare, I think a large proportion of the population could fight a Lannister advance. Meera seems to be well-versed in fighting and survival, I don't think shes an exception in the area. Their tactics seem to be one step away from hunting (poison arrows, stalking, guerrilla warfare), and I think women would be very involved in the defense. I think it would be pretty hard to nail down how many combatants Tywin would face if he had made it to the Neck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennis of the Brown Shield Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 19 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said: It looks like the neck is roughly as large as the Umber lands (60k sq miles*) if not larger. We know they don't have traditional agriculture per the world book and Jojen/Meera, so the density is going to be quite low. Even if we assume .5 persons every square mile -- that's 1/16th that of Siberia -- they have maybe 30K people living all over the neck. I think that's a bit low myself, but I don't see how it can go any lower. * based off of borders jon states and some other posts on the topic Robb told Howland to bleed the Lannisters if they came up the causeway and I'm assuming they contributed some men to the garrison at MC too. He did the same for Manderly, but he has greater resources *and* the crannogmen are better as guerilla fighters apparently. Based on what we know of Howland's training at arms, he wouldn't do real well against typical heavy infantry. I don't think it sounds too low. Hunter gathering societies in general had vastly lower population densities than agricultural ones (perhaps the main reason for why the agricultural lifestyle won out in the end) and the Crannogmen also live in an extraordinarily inhospitable and dangerous region at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrhex Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 The Neck is a swamp, and thier diet is not something that would keep a large population (it is mainly the reason for the Crannogmen are short). The "can't be taken by an enemy" is for a good reason, and it also works on the locals. Somewhere in the low thousands sounds more than reasonable. There is literally nothing, ever, in any of the books or SSMs and whatnot to give the impression that they are a large society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 47 minutes ago, Nyrhex said: The Neck is a swamp, and thier diet is not something that would keep a large population (it is mainly the reason for the Crannogmen are short). The "can't be taken by an enemy" is for a good reason, and it also works on the locals. Somewhere in the low thousands sounds more than reasonable. There is literally nothing, ever, in any of the books or SSMs and whatnot to give the impression that they are a large society. The sheer amount of land argues against "low thousands". There are at least 7 nobles houses there. It doesn't have to be super, super dense but at some point unless everyone is a noble, then people need to be peasants/commoners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrhex Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 17 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said: The sheer amount of land argues against "low thousands". There are at least 7 nobles houses there. It doesn't have to be super, super dense but at some point unless everyone is a noble, then people need to be peasants/commoners. Size of land means practically nothing, since the auther does not do large figures well. The "nobles houses" you grouped there are the Reeds and their bannermen, that is like grouping the Tallharts and the Condons together. The Condons are Tallhart's vassels just like the Tallharts are the Starks' and like the Starks are of the Iron Throne. Scale works both ways here. They are houses, the size is never mentioned and they show no sign of being anything close to the scale of the other Northern lords. Calling them "noble houses" is also not entirely called for, the sum total of their mark on the world is Theon's remark about Crannogmen in general: A Dance with Dragons - Reek II He was being watched. He could feel the eyes. When he looked up, he caught a glimpse of pale faces peering from behind the battlements of the Gatehouse Tower and through the broken masonry that crowned the Children's Tower, where legend said the children of the forest had once called down the hammer of the waters to break the lands of Westeros in two. The only dry road through the Neck was the causeway, and the towers of Moat Cailin plugged its northern end like a cork in a bottle. The road was narrow, the ruins so positioned that any enemy coming up from the south must pass beneath and between them. To assault any of the three towers, an attacker must expose his back to arrows from the other two, whilst climbing damp stone walls festooned with streamers of slimy white ghostskin. The swampy ground beyond the causeway was impassable, an endless morass of suckholes, quicksands, and glistening green swards that looked solid to the unwary eye but turned to water the instant you trod upon them, the whole of it infested with venomous serpents and poisonous flowers and monstrous lizard lions with teeth like daggers. Just as dangerous were its people, seldom seen but always lurking, the swamp-dwellers, the frog-eaters, the mud-men. Fenn and Reed, Peat and Boggs, Cray and Quagg, Greengood and Blackmyre, those were the sorts of names they gave themselves. The ironborn called them all bog devils. It can just as well be common family names. Another house that is not mentioned by Theon is Marsh, who seems to only fit in the Neck. That's about the only one I can buy that is noble, maybe also Fenn, because they actually have a sigil. Marsh's name and sigil, and considering the title of "Marsh King", I can see them being once a dynasty of petty kings. The others? The wording does not imply for noble houses. So three houses with sigils, two of those practically unheared of? Yeah, I can easily buy that the Neck has a small population even if by using real world metrics and real world historical comparisons, the fantasy series written by a guy who is notorious for his scale issues does not add up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Edd of House Tollet Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 Don't forget that is commonly believed that cragnomen breedeed with CotF, which might explain their short-stature and the recurrence of greenseners in their population, such as Jojen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrhex Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 It's been 8,000 years, everyone has everyone's blood. The Crannogmen should even have Rhoynar blood by now and vice versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.