Some thoughts and a question on Wylla, and a specific choice of wording by Edric.

[Macgregor of the North]

1 hour ago, Balerion's Whiskers said:

This whole thing makes the most sense of anything I've seen. Ashara to Dragonstone with Elia and then a journey back to Dorne...possibly by way of KL...possibly not. I agree she was gone from KL before the sack though.

(yeah...I gotta work sometime too. I'm in the US and it is still working hours now...)

Being at work when a thread is poppin off and you wanna talk on it is the worst lol!

Gotta make them sly posts on the computer/phone when you can!

[Macgregor of the North]

32 minutes ago, Tini said:

It don't think it was common knowledge. However, ...
Ever considered the possibility that Elia suggested that Rhaegar take Lyanna to the tower in Dorne? 

Dany's visions show a happy Rhaegar and Elia with baby Aegon, saying "The dragon must have three heads!" Elia knew of Rhaegar's obsession with the prophesies. And she knew she couldn't give him another child. Rhaegar didn't divorce Elia - that would've caused a stir. We know that the Targaryens of old often had two wives.

Most of the Dornish would have considered Lyanna Rhaegar's mistress - keeping a mistress was not uncommon for princes and lords. But Dorne is the one place in Westeros where it's not uncommon for a noble lady to take a lover openly. Which might have been a reason for Rhaegar to take Lyanna there. (And Dorne was as far away from the North as was possible without leaving Westeros.)

As long as Elia didn't call for Lyanna's blood, no Dornish would set a price on Lyanna's head.

 

Very Interesting post this one!

Im of the opinion also that Elia was not entirely against Rhaegars search for a woman to supply the third head of the Dragon. She knew her husband needed it for his prophecy and she knew she couldn't give him it. Simple really.

[Macgregor of the North]

@Balerion's Whiskers @Tini @The Weirwoods Eyes @Ashes Of Westeros @Little Scribe of Naath I've tagged a few of you that's been part of the thread. Care to weigh in on a thought if mine?.

 Ned Stark and the Daynes have cooked up a story that their Wet Nurse/servant of years Wylla, will be named as the mother of Jon Snow, should the need arise. She was Jon's Wet Nurse when he was born so she made sense to name as the mother.

This is not something Ned expects to spread around, more a measure he will resort to should he be pressed to name a mother and his icy cold demeanour can't get him out of the situation silently. To this day we know he has personally used the name on two occasions with Robert.

The Daynes of Starfall are keeping their End of the bargain also. Wylla is still a Wet Nurse/servant there and the story that she is Jon's mother still holds true there. 

Edric Dayne tells Arya that Wylla was Jon's mother.
I am still undecided whether he actually believes this or not but it proves that the ruse is still being played out at Starfall that was agreed upon with Ned Stark in 283AC.

A rumour that also circulates at Starfall is that Ned and Ashara Dayne fell in love at Harrenhal. Not that Ashara loved Ned,or that Ned loved Ashara, but that they both fell in love with each other. A very specific tale and a location and time is given. The Tourney at Harrenhal in late 281AC.

Funnily enough, Harwin of Winterfell has heard the exact same tale.

What is strange is that we are expected to believe that the young Lord of Starfall Edric Dayne, who was the Lady Ashara Daynes nephew, believes that Ned and Ashara Dayne were in love with each other, but also believes that Ned fathered a bastard on the Daynes Wet Nurse/servant Wylla. 
And they actually kept this Wet Nurse/servant on after Ashara allegedly jumped to her death after Ned Stark turned up to return the family sword but also with his bastard he fathered on Wylla.

Now we know that Wylla is still a Wet Nurse/servant at Starfall as recent as 299AC. They kept her on because they know the truth obviously. That Wylla was not Jon's mother but is playing the part.

As to Edric though, he would have grown up thinking Wylla was Jon's mother, but also, due to the stories by his 'Aunt' Allyria, also thinking that Ashara and Ned were in love with each other and that Ashara killed herself after Ned turned up with a sword and a bastard and broke her heart.

Now. If Edric is the young Lord of Starfall, he is entitled to ask questions. He is obviously going to ask- "Wylla, if my Aunt Ashara and Ned Stark were in love, but he fathered a bastard on you, then forgive me, but why are you here? Why would you be allowed to stay on at our House when my Aunt killed herself out of grief for the man she loved, but you slept with him and fathered his child. You should have been banished."

Solve the riddle folks! 

Wyllas response to young Ned would be....

What are we to think of the Ned/Ashara rumour at Starfall....

Why is the rumour even there? I mean, what purpose does the rumour even have?

Why is there two 'lies' doing the rounds at Starfall? What is the point? They conflict each other terribly and would only serve to rouse suspicions, and certainly young Edrics.

So, can the forum solve the riddle?

Does Edric really believe any one of these tales? He absolutely can not believe both of them because if he did believe both, he would feel negatively toward Wylla and she wouldn't be a Wet Nurse/servant there anymore. We know he does not think of Wylla negatively. And he doesn't think of Ned negatively either, in fact quite the opposite, Edric seems to respect Ned quite a lot, another thing he may struggle to do had he thought Ned was in love with his Aunt Ashara but fathered a child on their servant.

[Balerion's Whiskers]

Here's several thoughts:

The folks at Starfall would have to know that Ned didn't father a child on Wylla if she were a wet nurse in their employ, There would have been no opportunity. As far as I know, Ned shows up in Dorne close to the time Jon is born. The timeline above doesn't put him anywhere near Dorne until after the sack.

Cersei even thinks Ashara's baby was possibly Ned's, but she's apparently heard the common woman stories too.

Quote

"Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"

.

I think Ned Dayne knows the truth when he said that Ned Stark and Ashara were in love and knows the story about Wylla is a ruse. Although he's just a kid, he's from a respected noble house and should have been privy to matters concerning their family....although, I do think that Rickard and Brandon's deaths left Ned in the dark about some Stark 'business'. So, young Ned Dayne may not have been told everything as well. His father was Arthur's older brother and he's come into his lordship at a very early age for some reason.

I have a romantic notion that Ashara faked her death so that she wouldn't have to marry, when she heard that Ned had to take Brandon's place with Cat. This would have happened after the sack and when Ned arrived at Starfall. He would have known what his duty was by then.  (however....this does not answer the question....and simply raises more)

I have no textural evidence that Ned D knew the truth and was just going along with the Wylla ruse, but I think he did. I think he knows that Wylla wasn't Jon mother...and knew that Ashara wasn't either...but he might not know who she actually was. I think he's been told to say that Wylla was Jon's mother and Wylla was the one who told him to say that was the story. How better to continue the masquerade but from the mouth of the woman who it was about?

I think When Ned discovered that Arya had no clue what he was talking about, he decided to clam up, not knowing what he could or couldn't say. Arya was more concerned about Ned's romance with Ashara and didn't really make much of the Wylla story except that she could tell Jon his mother's name the next time she saw him. Ned D let the matter drop after that.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

Here are my 5 cents. I agree that wet nurse/servant Wylla was in cahoots with Ned and Daynes about Jon and was supposed to be named his mother if any questions arrise. Probably Wylla was present in ToJ when Ned arrived, but I'm not sure and I don't think it really matters.The only problem with this version is where Ned and Wylla met? I have an impression she has been in Dorne the whole time.

Ned/Ashara story used to be common gossip. This gossip has several points: something happened at HH with Ashara, Ashara gave birth sometime afterwards, Ned brought the Dawn to Dayens and they parted on good terms. Ashara threw herself from the tower. We have Harwin, Cersei, Ned and Cat as 2nd hand sources and Barry as 1st. The 2nd hand sources seemed to connect the dots we have and jumped to conclusion, Barry's thoughts are confusing. I already posted my thoughts on why I think N+A never happened, so I won't repeat.

Since Ned left Starfall two stories about Jon's parentage existed: Wylla the Mother in Dayen's houshold and Ashara the Mother in WF, though by Starks this topic is a taboo. I wonder why Ned D knows about Jon Snow at all? The story happened more than a decade ago, Ned is gone and took Jon with him, there were no contacts between two families and they live across the continent. Why talk about that and about Ashara's affair which apparently lead to her death?

But then I had an idea. What if the story about Ashara and Ned was made up in case baby Jon develops any Valyrian features, which Dayens have too. Than people would think "Yea, it was Ashara as we thought"

We have no evidence that Ned D knew the real story. But probably he understood that this story is somehow important for both families and looked closer. As he met Arya he asked her about Jon and his mother because apparently it was the only thing he knew about Stark's family. When Ned D found out that Arya has no clue and reacted agressively on mentioning that Ned Stark and Ashara were in love, he retreated. He felt he touched upon a sensitive topic which was treated differentely by Starks.

I guess Arya idealized the marriage of Ned and Cat and though she knew that Jon had other mother, she couldn't assume that Ned could love someone else. She is too young and doesn't realize how complicated things are. Ned D is brought up in Dorne, and the Dornish are more liberal and don't make a big deal of affairs.

[maudisdottir]

I think the Ned+Ashara story was cooked up initially to cover the Brandon+Ashara pregnancy scandal which might hurt the Tully/Stark alliance.  Or if not deliberately cooked up, it wasn't denied when people remembered them dancing at HH and put two and two together.  But I do like the point about having a backup plan should baby Jon start growing into his Valyrian features.  

As things turned out, it was better politically never to come out and deny it - Ashara was already dead, it would only hurt Cat and bring up other tensions between the various families, not to mention possibly exposing Jon's identity if anyone were to dig deeper. 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

My 2 cents:

The N + A story was definitely allowed to rage on in the case Jon had Valyrian features. That's too big of a plot hole for GRRM to not have taken care of.

However, you raise a really good point w.r.t Edric - he should have smelled a rat if he heard that Ned loved Ashara but had a child with Wylla. Maybe it was explained to him that Aunt Ashara committed suicide because Ned had got married and was out of reach forever, not because of the bastard - because a lot of men father bastards anyway.

The other sensible explanation is that Edric is in on the whole thing and is playing his part well.

N + A also serves as an excellent piece of gossip for people in Westeros to "solve" the mystery of the super-honorable Ned Stark's bastard. A lot of people may not buy the Wylla story but they would suspect  - "Oh, he's saying this to cover for Ashara's honor and the whole tragedy. Makes sense."

[Macgregor of the North]

 Cheers for the replies guys! I'll reply as best I can in one swoop. For clarity, I'll call the young un' Edric and the honourable Eddard 'Ned'.

@Balerion's Whiskers

You first cottoned on to my mention of Edric's strange reaction and now, like me, it seems to have stuck with you and we seem in agreement that it points more to Edric knowing Wylla was not the mother of Jon Snow, than actually believing she was. 
I can't envision any scenario where he doesn't question Wylla outright as to why she is still a servant of House Dayne when his aunt Ashara was in love with Ned but she slept with him and had a child, breaking his Aunts heart. I mean grill her about it as only a young boy can do haha, they have no chill, kids just straight up ask shit! And he was a young Lord with every right to get answers.

The only answers he can get really are that  Wylla was acting in as a stand in mother in a plot should the need arise. Which is actually true, we know it is. 

As to Ashara suiciding, this is one I struggle with. If I lean more one way, I'd say she did but of course I still have that doubt in my mind of course.

@Ashes Of Westeros

I can see the sense in letting a Ned/Ashara rumour have some legs in the event Jon had Valyrian features when he grew. I wonder if GRRM had that in mind. Well done! Good idea. I still have a tiny niggle at that though, why make the Wylla rumour at all??. Why not just say he slept with Ashara at Harrenhal, people already think it, Asharas gone and can't deny it, and all he needs to say is I went there and dropped the sword off and headed home with Jon. 
Of course it's sad she killed herself but I wanted to raise my son. It's what a few people believe anyway. But! There is a story in place that Wylla was Jon's mother, Ned told it to Robert twice, and it's an active story in Starfall still today.

@maudisdottir

This is where you come in, yes maybe the Ashara stories were just kept in reserve as a back up but the original plan was to use Wylla, a wench of low birth. This may soften the blow to Cat that Ned wasn't actually in love with a woman and that Jon is highborn, but infact he was the product of a one night stand on campaign and is indeed a base born boy with no threat to Robbs status as Heir.

Good! I like that.

@Little Scribe of Naath

I hear ya that Edric may have had that explained to him but I still think Edric would have a negative view on Wylla unless he knows the truth.  I've re read the exchange a few times(lol) and out of the two stories if I had to choose I'd say he seems to believe the Ned/Ashara love story more than he believes the Wylla version. 

I don't think he would have let Wylla stay on at Starfall or had any desire to talk with Ned and have this respect for him we see in Edrics conversations. Not if Ned was in love with his aunt, but fathered a bastard on the house servant then left them all to it, making off into the sunset with the bastard to live a married life with a totally different woman in the North.

In this scenario I think Edric is bitter as hell toward Wylla and also Ned, but he's not. In fact quite the opposite. Something keeps pulling me to think Edric knows Wylla is not Jon's mother.

[Macgregor of the North]

@The Weirwoods Eyes

To show that i do keep all angles open i had another thought. This follows the line of thought that Ashara (stupidly) slept with Brandon Stark at Harrenhal.

Ok, lets say they did. Brandon thought with his dick and not of the shame he would bring on the highborn young maid he had deflowered and also the shame he would bring on Cat and House Tully. He is promised after all. That shit means something.

Now, we know that every girl does not get morning sickness and that not every girl knows within the first week that they are even pregnant. Lets assume that Ashara never, but she was visibly upset at losing her maidenhead and being left high and dry by Brandon who had his fun and never gave a shit really.

The word is out that Ashara has lost her maidenhead at the Tourney. It may even be known it was a Stark. In steps Ned. The honourable Ned, i can believe, would step in and offer to take the fall and be the man. He would do it to save his brothers shame and the wrath of his father and also the wrath of Hoster and House Tully, since he is promised to Cat.

But, he would aslo be more than willing to do it to save the Lady Ashara the shame of being outed as the girl who slept with a promised Heir of a great house. Of course he would do it. He loves the girl! Hes loved her since he saw her and that shit only got deeper when they danced together.

So, with no pregnancy to know of, Ned does not need to act right away to try and marry the girl but he could have perhaps left her with the offer that should she be pregnant he would easily step in and be that guy. After that, things happened and they never saw each other again until much later when much had changed between the two.

In this fashion, i believe we have a point of origin for the rumours that Ned and Ashara were in love at Harrenhal, and also a reason why Ashara has a certain warmth toward Ned, enough to tell him where his sister was.

 

  

 

[Ashes Of Westeros]

6 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I can see the sense in letting a Ned/Ashara rumour have some legs in the event Jon had Valyrian features when he grew. I wonder if GRRM had that in mind. Well done! Good idea. I still have a tiny niggle at that though, why make the Wylla rumour at all??. Why not just say he slept with Ashara at Harrenhal, people already think it, Asharas gone and can't deny it, and all he needs to say is I went there and dropped the sword off and headed home with Jon. 
Of course it's sad she killed herself but I wanted to raise my son. It's what a few people believe anyway. But! There is a story in place that Wylla was Jon's mother, Ned told it to Robert twice, and it's an active story in Starfall still today.

I think Wylla was a default version and Ashara's - the backup story. If both families would have acknowledged Jon it could lead to some complication in terms of inheriting. In Dorne bastards can inherit the same as trueborns. At the moment of Jon's birth Lord Dayne had no children (Edric was born later), so if he would die childless, Jon as acknowledged bastard could put a claim on Starfall. Sounds a little speculative but stll possible.

Besides that, I think neither Ned Stark nor Dayens wanted Ashara's name to be dragged through all this. Romantic legend about tragic love is one thing, it isn't proven. But an acknowledged bastard is a bit different. And it would rise questions why Ned didn't marry her and bla.  It would be bigger stain on the reputation for both. But iin case with Wylla, nobody would bother about commoner's reputation and won't ask why Ned didn't marry her. You know what I mean?

[Tini]

14 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

Does Edric really believe any one of these tales? He absolutely can not believe both of them because if he did believe both, he would feel negatively toward Wylla and she wouldn't be a Wet Nurse/servant there anymore. We know he does not think of Wylla negatively. And he doesn't think of Ned negatively either, in fact quite the opposite, Edric seems to respect Ned quite a lot, another thing he may struggle to do had he thought Ned was in love with his Aunt Ashara but fathered a child on their servant.

I think he may have believed all of them - he heard them as a small boy, just like he heard tales of giants and first men. You don't question fairy tales, no matter the contradictions. The Ned+Ashara story and the Wylla story were each great tales - but part of different tales.  I don't see why that would reflect badly on Wylla and Ned Stark. Edric's family did not view Wylla and Ned negatively, Edric would've picked up on that.

Maybe he woke up to the contradictions in his family history after meeting Arya, maybe he is only now realizing that those two stories are connected. And while

                                            (Wylla nursing Jon) + (Ned is Jon's father) = (Wylla is Jon's mother)

may have seemd natural and true to him, adding in (Ashara + Ned in love) will give instead:

             (Ned + Ashara in love) + (Wylla nursing Jon) + (Ned is Jon's father) = (Jon is Ashara's son and Edric's cousin)   

Which explains his shock when Arya questioned that Wylla was Jon's mother.

ETA: We don't know where Edric fits into the Dayne family tree, do we? If bastards can inherit in Dorne, it's possible that Ashara's bastard would be ahead of Edric in the succession. Which explains why Ned Stark and the Daynes chose to name Wylla, and not Ashara, as Jon's mother. 

But nosy people like Varys would've been thrown of Lyanna's track: if they realized that Jon couldn't be Wylla's son by Ned, they, too, would've arrived at Ashara. And there investigation would stop.

[Balerion's Whiskers]

5 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

The word is out that Ashara has lost her maidenhead at the Tourney. It may even be known it was a Stark. In steps Ned. The honourable Ned, i can believe, would step in and offer to take the fall and be the man. He would do it to save his brothers shame and the wrath of his father and also the wrath of Hoster and House Tully, since he is promised to Cat.

But, he would aslo be more than willing to do it to save the Lady Ashara the shame of being outed as the girl who slept with a promised Heir of a great house. Of course he would do it. He loves the girl! Hes loved her since he saw her and that shit only got deeper when they danced together.

This is so Ned-like and I do think Brandon was the one who 'did the deed' with Ned offering to make things right. This would definitely promote warm feelings toward him in Starfall. Also, Ned wouldn't have proposed marriage...he would have asked Rickard to properly make the arrangements. Ned couldn't even ask her to dance.  If RR had never happened the N+A may have been a reality. It was a good match.

I do like the theory that if Jon displayed any Valyrian features, the Ashara story would solve that problem.

I think Edric heard the truth from Wylla herself. That's why he doesn't seem to have any conflicting feelings for her.

[Tini]

Eddard Stark may have employed a multi-layered defense:

0) Don't mention Jon's mother at all if you can get away with it.
1) If forced to speak about Jon's mother, mention Wylla, and Starfall.
2) If the Wylla line of defense doesn't hold up, admit it, and bring up Ashara.

All lines of defense were in keeping with Ned's character, and had corresponding stories to back them up.

Line 0 was for Winterfell, and his family. He just refused to speak of the circumstances surrounding Jon's birth. People made up their own explantions for Jon's existence, and Ned Stark's reticence.

Line 1 came into play when he couldn't stay silent - because silence was not acceptable, or would've roused suspicion. This was the case with Robert Baratheon - Robert was Ned's king, and a lifelong friend. Robert would've kept asking until he got an answer. 
If someone checked at Starfall, he would've met Wylla, and everyone he asked would've told him the same story that Edric Dayne told Arya. King Robert didn't sound as if he believed the Wylla Story - he knew Ned's character -, but he was too lazy to keep digging. 

Line 2 was the fallback defense, in case the first line didn't hold. It was to be used only if someone realized that Jon could not be the son of Ned and Wylla. As it was the last line of defense, it had to be much more carefully crafted than the Wylla story -  that's where the story of Ned and Ashara falling in love at Harrenhal comes into play. And why the Dayne's kept the story alive, along with the Wylla story.

People who wouldn't believe Ned sired Jon on Wylla might've been more inclined to believe in a tragic love story between Ned and Ashara - especially if they had heard rumors dating back to the tourney at Harrenhal. And that story also explained the failed 1st line of defense: obviously Wylla and Ned protected Ashara's reputation by claiming Jon was Wylla's son.  

PS : They needed Wylla to make the defense look authentic as a whole. If Ashara had claimed to be Jon's mother, it would've been a scandal, and attracted lots of attention in King's Landing - what was exactly what they were trying to avoid. Getting caught trying to hide her bastard, however, would only have caused raised eyebrows. 

[Ashes Of Westeros]

11 minutes ago, Tini said:

Eddard Stark may have employed a multi-layered defense:

0) Don't mention Jon's mother at all if you can get away with it.
1) If forced to speak about Jon's mother, mention Wylla, and Starfall.
2) If the Wylla line of defense doesn't hold up, admit it, and bring up Ashara.

Great sum up @Tini!

[Macgregor of the North]

@Ashes Of Westeros @Tini @Balerion's Whiskers

I find myself very very busy at the weekends so can't form up big detailed replies as yet but I'll say thanks! and good work, all of you!

Between us I think we are all painting reasonable sounding and quite clear pictures of the possibilities of what's went on here.

In my notes I have started a quite detailed list of possible events beginning at the Tourney, fusing together fact and theory. When I have it, I'll tag you all and will possibly give it a new thread, or just add it to this beast right here lol.

[maudisdottir]

^I agree, and to add to that, it's possible that anyone who dug that deep and discovered the "truth" about Ashara, might decide to let it go and leave her to rest in peace with her secret.  Don't speak ill of the dead and all that.

[Balerion's Whiskers]

I'm busy on weekends too, but I just want to thank everyone who participated in this thread for staying civil and trying to hold an intelligent discussion. So many threads these days go down the rabbit hole of crackpottery, tinfoil and personal agendas. I rarely participate in a thread this long because of all of the trolls and troublemakers. (it just isn't worth it) But this has been one of the few threads these days that actually had people working together for a common cause. Something I noticed about this thread was that we weren't trying to push what we wanted to happen, but we were trying to figure out what GRRM did, which is truly novel these days.

A big thanks to everyone and I hope to see you all in the future!

[Little Scribe of Naath]

On 10/28/2016 at 2:20 AM, Macgregor of the North said:

I hear ya that Edric may have had that explained to him but I still think Edric would have a negative view on Wylla unless he knows the truth.  I've re read the exchange a few times(lol) and out of the two stories if I had to choose I'd say he seems to believe the Ned/Ashara love story more than he believes the Wylla version. 

I don't think he would have let Wylla stay on at Starfall or had any desire to talk with Ned and have this respect for him we see in Edrics conversations. Not if Ned was in love with his aunt, but fathered a bastard on the house servant then left them all to it, making off into the sunset with the bastard to live a married life with a totally different woman in the North.

In this scenario I think Edric is bitter as hell toward Wylla and also Ned, but he's not. In fact quite the opposite. Something keeps pulling me to think Edric knows Wylla is not Jon's mother.

Yeah, I think @Tini explained it the best in her summary of Ned's line of defenses - maybe, Edric thinks Ashara is Jon's mother, but understands why this story of "Wylla" is being spread everywhere (to protect his aunt's honor), which is why he has a lot of respect for Ned. Alternatively, maybe he knows the truth (R + L = J) and is playing the part his family have been playing all these years, to cover up for that.

23 hours ago, Tini said:

Eddard Stark may have employed a multi-layered defense:

0) Don't mention Jon's mother at all if you can get away with it.
1) If forced to speak about Jon's mother, mention Wylla, and Starfall.
2) If the Wylla line of defense doesn't hold up, admit it, and bring up Ashara.

All lines of defense were in keeping with Ned's character, and had corresponding stories to back them up.

Line 0 was for Winterfell, and his family. He just refused to speak of the circumstances surrounding Jon's birth. People made up their own explantions for Jon's existence, and Ned Stark's reticence.

Line 1 came into play when he couldn't stay silent - because silence was not acceptable, or would've roused suspicion. This was the case with Robert Baratheon - Robert was Ned's king, and a lifelong friend. Robert would've kept asking until he got an answer. 
If someone checked at Starfall, he would've met Wylla, and everyone he asked would've told him the same story that Edric Dayne told Arya. King Robert didn't sound as if he believed the Wylla Story - he knew Ned's character -, but he was too lazy to keep digging. 

Line 2 was the fallback defense, in case the first line didn't hold. It was to be used only if someone realized that Jon could not be the son of Ned and Wylla. As it was the last line of defense, it had to be much more carefully crafted than the Wylla story -  that's where the story of Ned and Ashara falling in love at Harrenhal comes into play. And why the Dayne's kept the story alive, along with the Wylla story.

People who wouldn't believe Ned sired Jon on Wylla might've been more inclined to believe in a tragic love story between Ned and Ashara - especially if they had heard rumors dating back to the tourney at Harrenhal. And that story also explained the failed 1st line of defense: obviously Wylla and Ned protected Ashara's reputation by claiming Jon was Wylla's son.  

PS : They needed Wylla to make the defense look authentic as a whole. If Ashara had claimed to be Jon's mother, it would've been a scandal, and attracted lots of attention in King's Landing - what was exactly what they were trying to avoid. Getting caught trying to hide her bastard, however, would only have caused raised eyebrows. 

That's an excellent summary  I really liked how GRRM set up the whole "story" of Jon's mother in-world. Have N + A be the "real deal" in the eyes of the people (thus, it would explain away Valyrian features) and to cover for that come up with the story of "Wylla" so that people think Ned's trying to protect his highborn dead lover's honor (that's in character for him.)

4 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

^I agree, and to add to that, it's possible that anyone who dug that deep and discovered the "truth" about Ashara, might decide to let it go and leave her to rest in peace with her secret.  Don't speak ill of the dead and all that.

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

I always enjoy your threads @Macgregor of the North and this is no exception!  The Daynes are my most-wanted backstory before the series finishes (apart from R+L).

On 27/10/2016 at 9:38 PM, Macgregor of the North said:

Im of the opinion also that Elia was not entirely against Rhaegars search for a woman to supply the third head of the Dragon. She knew her husband needed it for his prophecy and she knew she couldn't give him it. Simple really.

I completely agree - we've seen that the Martells remained completely pro-Targ after Elia's death.  Prince Doran still intended Arianne to marry Viserys (until he died), which leads me to believe that Elia and her family were all in on R+L and were OK with it.

A lot of good points and theories have been raised throughout the thread on the origins of the stories about Wylla and also Asharya in relation to Jon. It's certainly credible that either story, or both, were deliberately planted and carried on to protect Jon's identity.  Its also possible that they are just a combination of gossip and wrong-assumptions that have never been disproved (kinda like what GRRM is doing to us with all the red herrings and unreliable witnesses in relation to the Daynes and Asharya in particular).  A possible exception is Ned telling Robert about Wylla, although this could have even been Ned simply not denying it when confronted with it as a rumour, as opposed to Ned making up the story.

Your original point about whether or not Wylla could have realistically gone to Winterfell as wetnurse got me to consider the distances involved.  Westeros is vast and I think we sometimes forget how much so.  I've consulted a few maps and whilst the distances aren't 100% reliable, it seems that there are maybe c.2000 miles between Winterfell and Dorne.  Also, we are told that people south of the neck take little or no interest in the North.  Because of this, some gossip in Dorne or even Kingslanding about Wylla may have been a non-issue in her going to Winterfell.  It would have been like servants in a household in the Scottish Highlands hearing gossip about a servant in a household in southern Spain!  In contrast, Asharya's name was more likely to have been mentioned that far north in connection with Ned because Ned had fought her famous brother, legendary kingsguard knight Arthur Dayne, and returned his famous legendary sword to his castle where his beautiful sister then jumped from a tower to her death (possibly due to lost love).  That's a great story, stuff of fairytales, and much more likely a story to travel than 'yet another lord sires yet another a bastard on a commoner during the war'.  

I'm not saying it was Wylla who went to Winterfell, it's equally possible they switched wetnurse before or during the journey north, but I do think it's possible she went there.  Like @Tini I also theorised a while back that Wylla may even have been Asharya in disguise, hence the weird suicide story, which I don't buy one bit. No hard evidence to support or refute this, but there is so little evidence to support anything that happened with the Daynes and Starfall, that I think it's well within the realms of possibility.  

The distance and separation also got me thinking about what would have caused people in Dornish Starfall to be discussing Northerner Ned Stark with Ned Dayne, a child who wasn't even born until about 3 years after Ned S had visited there?  I think maybe it was Ned becoming Robert's Hand that triggered his name being mentioned in Starfall and then someone (possibly a servant) said "Oh, Ned Stark is the new Kings Hand, I remember that time he came here.  It was just before your aunt Lady Asharya jumped from the tower. Everyone says she loved Ned and was heartbroken when he turned up here with another woman and their bastard son. By the way, that woman was your old wetnurse Wylla!". Maybe he heard 2 separate stories about Ned S and was interested because he shared his name with the Kings Hand and was milk brother with his son,  Maybe Ned D even just heard it from Allyria, who heard it from a servant, like Chinese whispers!  We have no real mention of Ned or Allyria's parents being around at Starfall in recent years and Asharya and Arthur were dead before they were born, so its not unreasonable they got this information via servants gossip.  It would be really odd if the Daynes had kept Wylla as wetnurse if she had truly had a bastard child with the man that Asharya loved, which then led Asharya to take her own life, so childish gossip seems about right. Maybe this is what causes Ned D's odd reaction, when he realises the story doesn't add up and all he 'truly' knows is that Wylla was his wetnurse.

This is all pure speculation of course, but so is everything else! 

I also believe Asharya's dishonouring/pregnancy may have been faked as a way for her to have to leave Elia's service and Kings Landing, possibly to help Rhaegar and Lyanna.  George has heavily hinted she was on the move (not hiding at Starfall or about to give birth) and she hasn't ever been mentioned in connection with the rebellion, so she may have been involved in something more covert.

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

PS I bet Old Nan knows!