Reine

Are Dragon Eggs made by Humans?

23 posts in this topic

I've had an idea, and here it is. I don't know if it even makes sense or if this has been discussed before, but if not... 

 

There is one big inconsistency when one looks at Dragons as a naturally evolved species. The apparent impossibility of Dragon Eggs hatching on their own. There isn't a wild dragon population in Valyria after the Doom. As a species that evolved around volcanos it makes sense that Dragon Eggs should be able to whitstand an eruption (the other way would be that they produce hundred of eggs so that some would survive a eruption). And we know that the Doom of Valyria didn't destroy everything completly otherwise there would be no adventurers trying to loot the place. But there aren't any wild Dragons, just intense heat form active volcanos doesn't seem to be enough to hatch Dragon Eggs. Human sacrifice does seem to be another requierment for an Egg to hatch. But if that is so (if the species has evolved around humans) who were those humans before Dragon Eggs were discovered in the Fourteen Fires? Just some random people Dragons took, then let them bleed out over their nests? And if Dragons do this to hatch Dragon Eggs why did they stop after the Dance of the Dragons? Did they forget the instinct because they were stunted even if they were able to produce healthy eggs? Or was it never the Dragons that hatched the Eggs, but always humans? Either in some Eragon style thing in which humans ensured that no Dragon can hatch without the help of a human who knows the right magic. Which would be pretty strange because in Eragon this is tied to magic that binds Rider and Dragon together but in ASOIAF we know that hatching a Dragon and binding yourself to a Dragon as a Rider aren't the same thing (as Dragons are inherited). So why would they ensure that only humans can hatch Dragon Eggs if it would be much easier and less costly if they do it on their own?

Unless the Dragons we learn of in ASOIAF are beings made with magic by humans. Either because they died out long ago or were never a naturally existing species. All the myths of Dragons before Valyria was founded (the first Dragons were hatched by them) could easily have been Wyverns. The grain of truth in the myth that Dragon Eggs were found inside the Fourteen Fires could be that volcanic stone is needed to make Dragon Eggs. That and blood magic/ human sacrifices (the Blood of the Dragon, Fire and Blood). These new creatures made by magic were likely modelled after an extinct species or Wyverns, but with fire from the volcanos in them. To make it more cost efficient those creatures can breed and change their gender, but as beings of magic there is always some magic needed to hatch them. They are made exactly so that some human lines can bond with them and control them better, which makes them more efficient and the humas more powerful and more successfull.

The reason the Targaryens settled on Dragonstone is because it is an active volcano, and as such a precious resource of volcanic stone (and heat). It is the place where you take the stone to make Dragon Eggs. Otherwise they could have easily settled on the Stepstones or take another place as their "head quarter". 

(This could also mean that Aegon III was trying to make Dragon Eggs and not just hatch them. Those three Eggs laid by the last living Dragon could have been faulty, they could have tried to hatch them before on Dragonstone in the volcano. Which would be the smart thing to try before setting a house on fire. Normally one takes measures to ensure nothing unwanted begins to burn when making a very big, very hot fire... How could Summerhall even happen? Maybe they sold the faulty eggs, which in the right hands (Dany) hatched because she has the magic in her. Or she got the newly made eggs from Summerhall, which her family made a big and recent sacrifice for.)

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On 2.02.2017 at 2:06 AM, Reine said:

I've had an idea, and here it is. I don't know if it even makes sense or if this has been discussed before, but if not... 

 

There is one big inconsistency when one looks at Dragons as a naturally evolved species. The apparent impossibility of Dragon Eggs hatching on their own. There isn't a wild dragon population in Valyria after the Doom. As a species that evolved around volcanos it makes sense that Dragon Eggs should be able to whitstand an eruption (the other way would be that they produce hundred of eggs so that some would survive a eruption). And we know that the Doom of Valyria didn't destroy everything completly otherwise there would be no adventurers trying to loot the place. But there aren't any wild Dragons, just intense heat form active volcanos doesn't seem to be enough to hatch Dragon Eggs. Human sacrifice does seem to be another requierment for an Egg to hatch. But if that is so (if the species has evolved around humans) who were those humans before Dragon Eggs were discovered in the Fourteen Fires? Just some random people Dragons took, then let them bleed out over their nests? And if Dragons do this to hatch Dragon Eggs why did they stop after the Dance of the Dragons? Did they forget the instinct because they were stunted even if they were able to produce healthy eggs? Or was it never the Dragons that hatched the Eggs, but always humans? Either in some Eragon style thing in which humans ensured that no Dragon can hatch without the help of a human who knows the right magic. Which would be pretty strange because in Eragon this is tied to magic that binds Rider and Dragon together but in ASOIAF we know that hatching a Dragon and binding yourself to a Dragon as a Rider aren't the same thing (as Dragons are inherited). So why would they ensure that only humans can hatch Dragon Eggs if it would be much easier and less costly if they do it on their own?

Unless the Dragons we learn of in ASOIAF are beings made with magic by humans. Either because they died out long ago or were never a naturally existing species. All the myths of Dragons before Valyria was founded (the first Dragons were hatched by them) could easily have been Wyverns. The grain of truth in the myth that Dragon Eggs were found inside the Fourteen Fires could be that volcanic stone is needed to make Dragon Eggs. That and blood magic/ human sacrifices (the Blood of the Dragon, Fire and Blood). These new creatures made by magic were likely modelled after an extinct species or Wyverns, but with fire from the volcanos in them. To make it more cost efficient those creatures can breed and change their gender, but as beings of magic there is always some magic needed to hatch them. They are made exactly so that some human lines can bond with them and control them better, which makes them more efficient and the humas more powerful and more successfull.

The reason the Targaryens settled on Dragonstone is because it is an active volcano, and as such a precious resource of volcanic stone (and heat). It is the place where you take the stone to make Dragon Eggs. Otherwise they could have easily settled on the Stepstones or take another place as their "head quarter". 

(This could also mean that Aegon III was trying to make Dragon Eggs and not just hatch them. Those three Eggs laid by the last living Dragon could have been faulty, they could have tried to hatch them before on Dragonstone in the volcano. Which would be the smart thing to try before setting a house on fire. Normally one takes measures to ensure nothing unwanted begins to burn when making a very big, very hot fire... How could Summerhall even happen? Maybe they sold the faulty eggs, which in the right hands (Dany) hatched because she has the magic in her. Or she got the newly made eggs from Summerhall, which her family made a big and recent sacrifice for.)

I've translated essay from Ogień i Lód forums (equivalent of Westeros.org in Poland), which suggests that dragon eggs are in facts artificial and are 'sealed' with certain symbol:

 

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On 3.2.2017 at 9:53 PM, Blue Tiger said:

I've translated essay from Ogień i Lód forums (equivalent of Westeros.org in Poland), which suggests that dragon eggs are in facts artificial and are 'sealed' with certain symbol:

 

Thank you very much.

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I don't have text handy, but there is a line somewhere to the effect that Valyrian dragons were "bred for war".

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I think in books 6 and 7 we may start to see that genetics and genetic engineering by the First races(possibly GEOTD-or who or what came before them.) have had a long running effect on the world as it is now.

 

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I always liked the idea that they were union of Firewyrms and Wyverns.

Quote

In Septon Barth's Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns, he speculated that the bloodmages of Valyria used wyvern stock to create dragons. Though the bloodmages were alleged to have experimented mightily with their unnatural arts, this claim is considered far-fetched by most maesters, among them Maester Vanyon's Against the Unnatural contains certain proofs of dragons having existed in Westeros even in the earliest of days, before Valyria rose to be a power.

 

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See I see blood mage as a scientist or someone who knew how to work a very ancient technology as opposed to a d and d prestige class...

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On 2/1/2017 at 5:06 PM, Reine said:

I've had an idea, and here it is. I don't know if it even makes sense or if this has been discussed before, but if not... 

 

There is one big inconsistency when one looks at Dragons as a naturally evolved species. The apparent impossibility of Dragon Eggs hatching on their own. There isn't a wild dragon population in Valyria after the Doom. As a species that evolved around volcanos it makes sense that Dragon Eggs should be able to whitstand an eruption (the other way would be that they produce hundred of eggs so that some would survive a eruption). And we know that the Doom of Valyria didn't destroy everything completly otherwise there would be no adventurers trying to loot the place. But there aren't any wild Dragons, just intense heat form active volcanos doesn't seem to be enough to hatch Dragon Eggs. Human sacrifice does seem to be another requierment for an Egg to hatch. But if that is so (if the species has evolved around humans) who were those humans before Dragon Eggs were discovered in the Fourteen Fires? Just some random people Dragons took, then let them bleed out over their nests? And if Dragons do this to hatch Dragon Eggs why did they stop after the Dance of the Dragons? Did they forget the instinct because they were stunted even if they were able to produce healthy eggs? Or was it never the Dragons that hatched the Eggs, but always humans? Either in some Eragon style thing in which humans ensured that no Dragon can hatch without the help of a human who knows the right magic. Which would be pretty strange because in Eragon this is tied to magic that binds Rider and Dragon together but in ASOIAF we know that hatching a Dragon and binding yourself to a Dragon as a Rider aren't the same thing (as Dragons are inherited). So why would they ensure that only humans can hatch Dragon Eggs if it would be much easier and less costly if they do it on their own?

Unless the Dragons we learn of in ASOIAF are beings made with magic by humans. Either because they died out long ago or were never a naturally existing species. All the myths of Dragons before Valyria was founded (the first Dragons were hatched by them) could easily have been Wyverns. The grain of truth in the myth that Dragon Eggs were found inside the Fourteen Fires could be that volcanic stone is needed to make Dragon Eggs. That and blood magic/ human sacrifices (the Blood of the Dragon, Fire and Blood). These new creatures made by magic were likely modelled after an extinct species or Wyverns, but with fire from the volcanos in them. To make it more cost efficient those creatures can breed and change their gender, but as beings of magic there is always some magic needed to hatch them. They are made exactly so that some human lines can bond with them and control them better, which makes them more efficient and the humas more powerful and more successfull.

The reason the Targaryens settled on Dragonstone is because it is an active volcano, and as such a precious resource of volcanic stone (and heat). It is the place where you take the stone to make Dragon Eggs. Otherwise they could have easily settled on the Stepstones or take another place as their "head quarter". 

(This could also mean that Aegon III was trying to make Dragon Eggs and not just hatch them. Those three Eggs laid by the last living Dragon could have been faulty, they could have tried to hatch them before on Dragonstone in the volcano. Which would be the smart thing to try before setting a house on fire. Normally one takes measures to ensure nothing unwanted begins to burn when making a very big, very hot fire... How could Summerhall even happen? Maybe they sold the faulty eggs, which in the right hands (Dany) hatched because she has the magic in her. Or she got the newly made eggs from Summerhall, which her family made a big and recent sacrifice for.)

Dragons Lay eggs to reproduce so no, they are not made by people. 

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On 25.2.2017 at 0:47 AM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Dragons Lay eggs to reproduce so no, they are not made by people. 

Cloned organism can reproduce, they are still made by humans.

Dragons could have been made so, that they can reproduce, that would be very efficient. But they don't hatch in the wild. There is no wild dragon population but if they are a evolved specied that wasn't altered by humans or made by humans, there should be a wild population. There are still wolves even when we have dogs. There are populations of wild horses whose ancestors were domesticated but had been set free because of a war or a catastrophe. Dedomestication exists. My conclusion is that they are not a naturally evolved species, that Dragons can't hatch on their own without help from humans.

Important questions to ask if you look at the evolution of a species is: Why? Why would they adapt this way? How does this increase their fitness?

So why would Dragons adapt to loose their ability to reproduce without a human sacrifice? Why would they nest in a volcano? Why aren't their eggs immune to extreme heat an force if they do nest in volcanoes? How does losing the ability to hatch their own eggs (if they evolved to having a need for human sacrifice) better their ability to pass on their genes to the next generation?

It makes no sense.

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1 hour ago, Reine said:

Cloned organism can reproduce, they are still made by humans.

Dragons could have been made so, that they can reproduce, that would be very efficient. But they don't hatch in the wild. There is no wild dragon population but if they are a evolved specied that wasn't altered by humans or made by humans, there should be a wild population. There are still wolves even when we have dogs. There are populations of wild horses whose ancestors were domesticated but had been set free because of a war or a catastrophe. Dedomestication exists. My conclusion is that they are not a naturally evolved species, that Dragons can't hatch on their own without help from humans.

Important questions to ask if you look at the evolution of a species is: Why? Why would they adapt this way? How does this increase their fitness?

So why would Dragons adapt to loose their ability to reproduce without a human sacrifice? Why would they nest in a volcano? Why aren't their eggs immune to extreme heat an force if they do nest in volcanoes? How does losing the ability to hatch their own eggs (if they evolved to having a need for human sacrifice) better their ability to pass on their genes to the next generation?

It makes no sense.

They were three wild dragons discussed in the World book during The Dance of Dragons. Cannibal, Grey Ghost, and Sheepstealer. Only Sheepstealer had a rider; the other two were never tamed. In fact, Cannibal survived The Dance of Dragons, flew off, and was never seen again. Some posit that he may still be alive.

All the Targaryan and Velaryon dragons are listed under the "Historical Dragons" section:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Dragon

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4 hours ago, Reine said:

Cloned organism can reproduce, they are still made by humans.

No, offspring of cloned organisms would not be made by humans. The cloned organism yes, but not their offspring

4 hours ago, Reine said:

Dragons could have been made so, that they can reproduce, that would be very efficient. But they don't hatch in the wild. There is no wild dragon population but if they are a evolved specied that wasn't altered by humans or made by humans, there should be a wild population. There are still wolves even when we have dogs. There are populations of wild horses whose ancestors were domesticated but had been set free because of a war or a catastrophe. Dedomestication exists. My conclusion is that they are not a naturally evolved species, that Dragons can't hatch on their own without help from humans.

Dragons do hatch in the wild when given the chance. There were wild dragons on dragonstone during the dance 

4 hours ago, Reine said:

Important questions to ask if you look at the evolution of a species is: Why? Why would they adapt this way? How does this increase their fitness?

Magic. It is a fantasy novel after all. 

4 hours ago, Reine said:

So why would Dragons adapt to loose their ability to reproduce without a human sacrifice? Why would they nest in a volcano? Why aren't their eggs immune to extreme heat an force if they do nest in volcanoes? How does losing the ability to hatch their own eggs (if they evolved to having a need for human sacrifice) better their ability to pass on their genes to the next generation?

I don't know what book you are reading but they don't require human sacrifice to reproduce. They can lay eggs and the targs hatched those eggs with children in cribs

4 hours ago, Reine said:

It makes no sense.

 Only with your suppositions. If you take the story for what it is it all makes perfect sense 

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On 3/3/2017 at 6:33 AM, Reine said:

Cloned organism can reproduce, they are still made by humans.

Dragons could have been made so, that they can reproduce, that would be very efficient. But they don't hatch in the wild. There is no wild dragon population but if they are a evolved specied that wasn't altered by humans or made by humans, there should be a wild population. There are still wolves even when we have dogs. There are populations of wild horses whose ancestors were domesticated but had been set free because of a war or a catastrophe. Dedomestication exists. My conclusion is that they are not a naturally evolved species, that Dragons can't hatch on their own without help from humans.

Important questions to ask if you look at the evolution of a species is: Why? Why would they adapt this way? How does this increase their fitness?

So why would Dragons adapt to loose their ability to reproduce without a human sacrifice? Why would they nest in a volcano? Why aren't their eggs immune to extreme heat an force if they do nest in volcanoes? How does losing the ability to hatch their own eggs (if they evolved to having a need for human sacrifice) better their ability to pass on their genes to the next generation?

It makes no sense.

Isnt there a alleged "wild" dragon population on that one island way past Essos

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11 hours ago, MilesJames said:

Isnt there a alleged "wild" dragon population on that one island way past Essos

That would be great, then I would have one point less on my Makes no sense/ immersion problem list.

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On 3.3.2017 at 7:42 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

No, offspring of cloned organisms would not be made by humans. The cloned organism yes, but not their offspring

My initial idea was that there were two ways to get dragon eggs, first make them with magic (out of carved rock/ volcanic stone) and second through normal reproduction of adult Dragons.

On 3.3.2017 at 7:42 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Dragons do hatch in the wild when given the chance. There were wild dragons on dragonstone during the dance 

It was never clear to me if they hatched in the wild (without any sort of human help/ interaction/ blood sacrifice) of if they were hatched in the crib or otherwise by humans but then they didn't take on a rider and became "wild". What is your opinion?

On 3.3.2017 at 7:42 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Magic. It is a fantasy novel after all. 

That could be the case, especially because magic isn't really understood. So your opinion is that magic stops the mechanics of evolution? Will it then also stop inbreeeding depression and problems related with inzest in Tragaryens because they have some magic too? That would be very interesting (dead babies sired/ concieved by Targaryens)...

On 3.3.2017 at 7:42 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

I don't know what book you are reading but they don't require human sacrifice to reproduce. They can lay eggs and the targs hatched those eggs with children in cribs

Reproducion in Dragons: the whole process from copulation to hatching. Hatching them through a blood sacrifice (by Dany maybe even the sacrifice of a human life) or because humans are near would mean that the hatching process is dependent on humans. In my opinion you need a blood sacrifice from a human (for me a human sacrifice, but my wording was maybe poor) and a fire of sorts to hatch a dragon egg. "Fire and Blood." But I'm not sure if the fire has to be literal or if a strong "inner fire" could be the key.

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On 21.2.2017 at 2:43 AM, The Dragon has three heads said:

I think in books 6 and 7 we may start to see that genetics and genetic engineering by the First races(possibly GEOTD-or who or what came before them.) have had a long running effect on the world as it is now.

 

That would be cool. I'm hoping that the genetic engineering was done with magic and that genetics on Planetos work a little bit different than on our world (just to spice things up a bit).

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On 21.2.2017 at 6:14 AM, Lord Wraith said:

I always liked the idea that they were union of Firewyrms and Wyverns.

 

Me too. The proof of Dragons in Westeros before Valyria could be sceletons of Wyverns...

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On 22.2.2017 at 10:28 AM, The Dragon has three heads said:

 

See I see blood mage as a scientist or someone who knew how to work a very ancient technology as opposed to a d and d prestige class...

I'm really hoping we can trust GRRMs world that he wrote a fantasy novel. I can't say anything about d and d because I had never contact with those sort of things (unless Terry Pratchett wrote d and d, or Tolkien did...). I always think of magic as either something inherent to the body/ soul of a person which enables them to alter reality in a way that goes against science (like breaking the first law of thermodynamics) or an ability to influence an energy around them with rituals, recipes, stubbornness, willpower or exactly phrased and ritualized pleas to this energy. The magical thing of the latter would be that our world lacks that energy and because of that isn't included in science. (But I really hate the idea that magic is just some strange form of futuristic/ extremely advanced technology. Because then magic only seems like magic but isn't magic and I want magic and not just things that look like magic.)

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8 hours ago, Reine said:

My initial idea was that there were two ways to get dragon eggs, first make them with magic (out of carved rock/ volcanic stone) and second through normal reproduction of adult Dragons.

Maybe, but they do mate and lay eggs. That is how the Targ kings got more dragons 

8 hours ago, Reine said:

It was never clear to me if they hatched in the wild (without any sort of human help/ interaction/ blood sacrifice) of if they were hatched in the crib or otherwise by humans but then they didn't take on a rider and became "wild". What is your opinion?

Since there was never any example in the books of blood sacrifice other than Dany's to hatch eggs, I would assume that they would have a fairly natural life cycle

21 hours ago, MilesJames said:

Isnt there a alleged "wild" dragon population on that one island way past Essos

Not sure, but Bran did see dragons in his coma vision.  When or where is not shown to the reader

8 hours ago, Reine said:

That could be the case, especially because magic isn't really understood. So your opinion is that magic stops the mechanics of evolution? Will it then also stop inbreeeding depression and problems related with inzest in Tragaryens because they have some magic too? That would be very interesting (dead babies sired/ concieved by Targaryens)...

That is the only rational reason why Dany is not deformed and looking almost exactly like every one of her relatives. 

8 hours ago, Reine said:

Reproducion in Dragons: the whole process from copulation to hatching. Hatching them through a blood sacrifice (by Dany maybe even the sacrifice of a human life) or because humans are near would mean that the hatching process is dependent on humans. In my opinion you need a blood sacrifice from a human (for me a human sacrifice, but my wording was maybe poor) and a fire of sorts to hatch a dragon egg. "Fire and Blood." But I'm not sure if the fire has to be literal or if a strong "inner fire" could be the key.

But aside from Dany, the has been no mention of blood sacrifice for hatching. Their creation? Maybe 

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Posted (edited)

14 hours ago, Reine said:

I'm really hoping we can trust GRRMs world that he wrote a fantasy novel. I can't say anything about d and d because I had never contact with those sort of things (unless Terry Pratchett wrote d and d, or Tolkien did...). I always think of magic as either something inherent to the body/ soul of a person which enables them to alter reality in a way that goes against science (like breaking the first law of thermodynamics) or an ability to influence an energy around them with rituals, recipes, stubbornness, willpower or exactly phrased and ritualized pleas to this energy. The magical thing of the latter would be that our world lacks that energy and because of that isn't included in science. (But I really hate the idea that magic is just some strange form of futuristic/ extremely advanced technology. Because then magic only seems like magic but isn't magic and I want magic and not just things that look like magic.)

In all of martins work he's never made magic 'real' there's always an explanation.    

Magic is what you make it.

power resides where men THINK it resides.

I can't think of anything more yawn worthy than finding out people are special n cause MAGIX.

nope nope nope haha

Edited by The Dragon has three heads

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well they might have done stuff so dragons would need human help. It would be a great way of keeping all the dragons under human control in some way at least. Remember dragons are destructive and having a ton of wild ones flying about cannot be good for people

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