Brad Stark Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 Interesting parallels between the Daynes and the Dragonlords. They look the same and similar swords, but supposedly had no contact and lived on opposite sides of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 I have slightly differing opinions regarding the two swords Dawn and Ice, but I'd like to preface my thoughts by saying that I too don't believe the Last Hero and Nights King were the same people. The official story is that the Night's King was the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and since the Wall was built after the Long Night these two cannot be the same people. His sin was to fall in love with an "Other", or rather a person living north of the Wall, so someone that knew of the magical sacrifice that creates white walkers. So together they began sacrificing to the Others again, and I can only assume it was their male children and any of their follower's children they were sacrificing just like Craster. The Lord of Winterfell and the King Beyond the Wall set aside their differences to put this man down so as to stop the re-creation of white walkers. Getting back to the two swords. The two houses of Dayne and Stark are shields at opposite ends of the realm of men. The Dawn sword that looks like ice is meant to guard against a rise in fire magic, and Ice is a fiery sword meant to guard against ice magic. Jon dreams of wearing black armor and holding a fiery sword which is the Stark's legacy: which is the black shield protecting the realm from ice. The Daynes are the white shield protecting the realm from fire. It's ironic that Arthur was a friend of the Targaryens, but at the same time I cannot help but notice that the Targaryens were defeated and wonder if that wasn't intentional? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 20 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said: Getting back to the two swords. The two houses of Dayne and Stark are shields at opposite ends of the realm of men. The Dawn sword that looks like ice is meant to guard against a rise in fire magic, and Ice is a fiery sword meant to guard against ice magic. Jon dreams of wearing black armor and holding a fiery sword which is the Stark's legacy: which is the black shield protecting the realm from ice. The Daynes are the white shield protecting the realm from fire. It's ironic that Arthur was a friend of the Targaryens, but at the same time I cannot help but notice that the Targaryens were defeated and wonder if that wasn't intentional? You could look at the events at the ToJ another way. That Dawn would have defeated Winter if it wasn't for Howland Reed. That sounds like and old gods/God's Eye intervention. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 27 minutes ago, LynnS said: You could look at the events at the ToJ another way. That Dawn would have defeated Winter if it wasn't for Howland Reed. That sounds like and old gods/God's Eye intervention. Why? I actually do think there was a magical intervention, and I'm wondering if it wasn't so much that Ned needed to survive, but rather the Targaryens needed to be put down in order to reverse history. What was happening at the tower of joy may have been a blood magic ritual that needed to be stopped. Ned was a tool used by the old gods to help put the final nail in the Targaryen coffin, only to be removed later as the shield in the north. I'm still mulling over the reasons why, because I still don't understand Bloodraven's motivations as I don't believe he's moved past his loyalties to the Targaryens. But I haven't figured out why he wanted to rid the realm of Aerys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said: Jon dreams of wearing black armor and holding a fiery sword This is interesting to me because I don't think the fiery sword is actually a sword. You could argue that the fiery red sword is a dragon, warm to the touch and the black armor? I'm not so sure that the story of forging Lightbringer is about a sword but a dragon and hatching a dragon's egg. R'hllor being the Lord of Light and dragons once worshipped as gods. It wouldn't surprise me if the Great Temple of R'hllor in Volantis is actually a dragon pit holding one of these old gods. Concerning the ToJ, this is really the ending of events that began at the Tourney of Harrenhal. So another beginning and ending. To me the important take away is that the decision was made for Stark to live. If he hadn't then, the Bran boy would never exist and Jon's future wouldn't be secured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 50 minutes ago, LynnS said: This is interesting to me because I don't think the fiery sword is actually a sword. You could argue that the fiery red sword is a dragon, warm to the touch and the black armor? I'm not so sure that the story of forging Lightbringer is about a sword but a dragon and hatching a dragon's egg. R'hllor being the Lord of Light and dragons once worshipped as gods. It wouldn't surprise me if the Great Temple of R'hllor in Volantis is actually a dragon pit holding one of these old gods. Concerning the ToJ, this is really the ending of events that began at the Tourney of Harrenhal. So another beginning and ending. To me the important take away is that the decision was made for Stark to live. If he hadn't then, the Bran boy would never exist and Jon's future wouldn't be secured. I don't see Jon as Azor Ahai reborn no matter what Melisandre says. He's a Stark and Starks are the shield of the North, and Ice was a black, fiery sword and likely hidden down in the crypts of Winterfell waiting for the black knight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 4 hours ago, LynnS said: RR, I'm not sure how to respond. I become very confused with the fuzzy dates around the Andal timeline. So I go with the series of events in the order in which I think they occurred. I don't think that the overthrow of the Night's King and the story of the Last Hero are the same event although I think they are confused by the use of the term the Long Night. To me, every winter is a long night with shortened hours of daylight, more so the further north you go. So I go with Bran's chronology of the LH and the events that followed as the end of the first Long Night in the Dawn Age. Beginning four thousand years of friendship. I think this ends with the Andal invasion where dates are conflicting so I go with the 4000 year timeline rather than the earlier timelines because Joer Mormont pegs the 'Long Night' at 8000 years. Since I think the overthrow of the Night's King is attributable to the end of the Andal invasion and the Andalization of the Watch; I don't think Mormont is referring to the events of the Night Fort but to the original conflict at the end of the Dawn Age marking the beginning of the Age of Heroes. In fact, he never says anything about the Night's King only that the Watch has forgotten what they should have remembered. In the tales of the Night's King we don't hear anything about the white walkers or wights. Instead, we hear about the undead army and those who leave no tracks in the snow in the tale of the Last Hero. So I think Feather is right that we are replaying the original events 8000 years in the past with an overlay of the Night's Kings story considering the parallels to Jon and Bran in the current story. I think this speaks to the notions of kinslaying and kingslayers and that this must be reversed. In terms of the timelines, as we discussed on the last thread, whatever the truth of the dating history appears to be a lot shorter than originally advertised. While I wouldn't rule out a close connection between the Nights King and the last of the 13 heroes, I don't on balance lean to their being one and the same. However one important thing we don't know is the price that was promised and ultimately paid when the Last Hero obtained the help of the tree-huggers - though we do know that in all of folklore, without exception, there is a price and normally a heavy one. First born sons often feature prominently and whether or not he had an immediate predecessor we have a very good example in Craster. A strong possibility therefore is that the Last Hero paid just such a price and was also bound to the Wall - at the Nightfort - and 12 more after him. Rather discovering that the Nights King had been sacrificing to the Others after his fall, I suggest that he was brought down to stop the sacrifices being made, and thereafter the "new" Watch took over, pledging to father no children who could be sacrificed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Black Crow said: In terms of the timelines, as we discussed on the last thread, whatever the truth of the dating history appears to be a lot shorter than originally advertised. While I wouldn't rule out a close connection between the Nights King and the last of the 13 heroes, I don't on balance lean to their being one and the same. However one important thing we don't know is the price that was promised and ultimately paid when the Last Hero obtained the help of the tree-huggers - though we do know that in all of folklore, without exception, there is a price and normally a heavy one. First born sons often feature prominently and whether or not he had an immediate predecessor we have a very good example in Craster. A strong possibility therefore is that the Last Hero paid just such a price and was also bound to the Wall - at the Nightfort - and 12 more after him. Rather discovering that the Nights King had been sacrificing to the Others after his fall, I suggest that he was brought down to stop the sacrifices being made, and thereafter the "new" Watch took over, pledging to father no children who could be sacrificed. I could go with that explanation for the Black Gate but I'm not sure about the 12 companions since they died before the Last Hero. I could also go with the Rat Cook as the Black Gate; doomed to roam the Night Fort and devour his own children; the price for violating guest rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said: I don't see Jon as Azor Ahai reborn no matter what Melisandre says. He's a Stark and Starks are the shield of the North, and Ice was a black, fiery sword and likely hidden down in the crypts of Winterfell waiting for the black knight. He's not AA. That would be Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Stark Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 Who else thinks Euron's Valaryian steel armor is the same as Jon's dream? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 24 minutes ago, LynnS said: I could go with that explanation for the Black Gate but I'm not sure about the 12 companions since they died before the Last Hero. Slight misunderstanding, what I was throwing out here was the possibility of the Nights King of legend being the 12th one after the Last Hero, although the figure 13 is so tied up with both stories in different ways that its significance is ambiguous to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Black Crow said: Slight misunderstanding, what I was throwing out here was the possibility of the Nights King of legend being the 12th one after the Last Hero, although the figure 13 is so tied up with both stories in different ways that its significance is ambiguous to say the least. Yep, no idea unless Martin is making reference to biblical number 13 or the story of Nimrod. I'm curious about when the Watch started making use of the title Lord Commander and if this replaces the title of King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 16 minutes ago, LynnS said: Yep, no idea unless Martin is making reference to biblical number 13 or the story of Nimrod. I'm curious about when the Watch started making use of the title Lord Commander and if this replaces the title of King. Very likely. Old Nan refers to the Nights King as "the thirteenth man to lead the Night’s Watch" not as the Lord Commander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 I don't know if this is relevant or not, but Jesus and his 12 disciples has it's roots in astrology and Mithraism with a sun-god passing through the zodiac each year. It's been suggested that the Bible was never meant to be taken literally, and GRRM may be doing the same thing. Maybe we should be trying to ascertain the symbolic meaning of the Last Hero? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 49 minutes ago, Black Crow said: Very likely. Old Nan refers to the Nights King as "the thirteenth man to lead the Night’s Watch" not as the Lord Commander. So could this account for the list of LC's being too short for a longer timeline? That previous to the overthrow of the Night's King the LC's were actually kings? There is a lichyard at Castle Black and there has to be one at the Night Fort as well and possibly even a crypt. Not to mention that Melisandre has started dreaming and claims to be able to talk to kings long dead. I'm guessing the 13th Lord Commander is a little more Andal fudging of the history. I'm not sure that we can rely on Old Nan's tales entirely, since Bran says she confuses things and sometimes changes the stories. There is one in particular about the wildlings that sounds like a blood libel to me but I'll leave that for the discussion on Old Nan's Tales. Not to mention the superstition around the number 13 in our own culture; to the extent that apartment buildings have no 13th floor. So perhaps there is no 13th LC and the actual list of LC's begins with the overthrow of the NK and the record of kings that preceded it; if there is one was destroyed or still waiting to be discovered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Stark Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said: It's been suggested that the Bible was never meant to be taken literally, and GRRM may be doing the same thing. Maybe we should be trying to ascertain the symbolic meaning of the Last Hero? Whether the Nights King being the 13th man to lead the Watch and the Last Hero having 12 companions are connected literally or symbolically, it is an interesting connection. It is almost more interesting if it is symbolic. But it could be a complete coincidence - what if I found there were 13 tournaments in the text, or 13 named members of House Mormont? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Carion of the Crow Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 7 hours ago, Brad Stark said: Who else thinks Euron's Valaryian steel armor is the same as Jon's dream? I'm not so sure this is the case. Valaryian steel is smokey gray. Much different than black. I think the armor is more symbolic. Hinting that Jon is indeed a Targaryean (black armor with a red sword). Also, the color black could hint at Jon because he was a sworn brother of the nights watch during Danny's vision. Dress in black! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Back to the Wall.... Does the Wall go from sea to sea or does it stop at the mountains? Why don't wights and white walkers bypass the Wall by going underneath as in the tale of Gendel and Gorne? If there is a way underneath the Wall, why don't the Wildlings use it? What is it about salt water that stops the undead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 3 hours ago, Brad Stark said: Whether the Nights King being the 13th man to lead the Watch and the Last Hero having 12 companions are connected literally or symbolically, it is an interesting connection. It is almost more interesting if it is symbolic. But it could be a complete coincidence - what if I found there were 13 tournaments in the text, or 13 named members of House Mormont? I think that's the point in that the number 13 keeps cropping up in different guises too often to be taken literally. Although not spelled out explicitly there is another and possibly significant recurrence. In general terms inside and outside the books the term generation is not precisely defined as to years but is generally accepted to be the span between birth and procreation. In Westeros as in mediaeval Europe generally that seems to be in the region of 13 years. Therefore, if the Long Night lasted a generation then it too may have lasted 13 years, which raises some interesting thoughts as to some of the other 13s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 37 minutes ago, LynnS said: Back to the Wall.... Does the Wall go from sea to sea or does it stop at the mountains? Why don't wights and white walkers bypass the Wall by going underneath as in the tale of Gendel and Gorne? If there is a way underneath the Wall, why don't the Wildlings use it? What is it about salt water that stops the undead? In a word, warding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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