Heresy 196 and a look at the Wall

[ravenous reader]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

,,,and then it was Bran's turn. Hodor ducked, but not low enough. The door's upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran's head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear.

Saliva is possible, but of itself it tends to be sweet rather than salty, and in any case I still contend that in the context and positioning of the passage - the cliff-hanging climax of the chapter as Bran and the rest of the Scooby gang enter the magic otherlands - GRRM is indeed writing of a tear.

He's also being very explicit in describing something which isn't a weirwood and strangely warm water certainly isn't ice-melt.

I see what you're saying BC.  I do agree with you it's most likely a tear.  Based on Seams' 'tear' wordplay (tearing as crying as well as ripping fabric or tissue), however, I was just exploring some possible alternatives.  Based on the gate as mouth or vagina/cervix stretching to accommodate Bran/Hodor, I was reasoning the fabric might have torn, as it were, releasing a secretion of some sort, which would be analogous to saliva and amniotic fluid respectively (since the passage is configured as a birth).

To your last point, I must disagree with the first claim that this isn't a weirwood (although I agree it's a very special one).  It very definitely is a weirwood, according to the text:

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A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

The well grew darker and colder with every turn. When Bran finally lifted his head around to look back up the shaft, the top of the well was no bigger than a half-moon. "Hodor," Hodor whispered, "Hodorhodorhodorhodorhodorhodor," the well whispered back. The water sounds were close, but when Bran peered down he saw only blackness.

A turn or two later Sam stopped suddenly. He was a quarter of the way around the well from Bran and Hodor and six feet farther down, yet Bran could barely see him. He could see the door, though. The Black Gate, Sam had called it, but it wasn't black at all.

It was white weirwood, and there was a face on it.

 The face also isn't a mere projection of the light on the door as posited by @LynnS; it's an integral part of the door, leading me to believe that someone has been trapped and/or imprisoned in the weirwood (I also agree with you @Black Crow that this face has not been carved).  It's found at the bottom of a well, hinting symbolically at someone having been 'drowned' in a well!

By the way, the saltiness can be explained by the 'niter' crystals ('saltpeter') lining the well's walls.

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A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

"Then pass," the door said. Its lips opened, wide and wider and wider still, until nothing at all remained but a great gaping mouth in a ring of wrinkles. Sam stepped aside and waved Jojen through ahead of him. Summer followed, sniffing as he went, and then it was Bran's turn. Hodor ducked, but not low enough. The door's upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran's head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear.

The fact that the fluid is strangely warm implies that someone warm-blooded has been buried alive in the ice tree!  Corroborating this supposition is the strange phenomenon of the door emitting light -- note that the light comes 'from the door' rather than being a reflection of light from some other source.  In LmL's parlance, there's a fiery presence embedded in the ice!

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A glow came from the wood, like milk and moonlight, so faint it scarcely seemed to touch anything beyond the door itself, not even Sam standing right before it. 

 

10 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

What is unusual about the Nightfort's location?  East/West it is towards the western side of the Wall but it is in the center of Westeros. 

Every other weirwood face we see is crudely carved and doesn't move, while the Black Gate is described being a man who got older for a thousand years without dying, probably very intricate detail.  Other weirwoods do cry, but it is sap or maybe blood, not tears.  The Black Gate is something special. 

How do you know the weirwood is crying?

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A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

"I am the sword in the darkness," Samwell Tarly said. "I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."

"Then pass," the door said. Its lips opened, wide and wider and wider still, until nothing at all remained but a great gaping mouth in a ring of wrinkles. Sam stepped aside and waved Jojen through ahead of him. Summer followed, sniffing as he went, and then it was Bran's turn. Hodor ducked, but not low enough. The door's upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran's head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear.

Bran steps into the 'gaping mouth' of the weirwood as if he's being eaten by it.  The 'upper lip' brushes against Bran's head at which point some kind of secretion is released.  Bran interprets this as a tear; however, it's more likely saliva, since we are talking about a mouth...

Also, bear in mind that 'tears' are not always what they seem.  For example, 'the tears of Lys' which mimics water and a natural death, although it's poison:

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard VII

"Tell me."

"The tears of Lys, they call it. A rare and costly thing, clear and sweet as water, and it leaves no trace. I begged Lord Arryn to use a taster, in this very room I begged him, but he would not hear of it. Only one who was less than a man would even think of such a thing, he told me."

Ned had to know the rest. "Who gave him the poison?"

 

9 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

So... last evening, I was thinking to the green-black wall of water (rain+sea) that make quite sink Tyrion's ship in ADWD and I was wondering what could concretly happen if the Wall was falling. Melting. A huge and cataclysmic flood/deluge. Could the water arrive to Winterfell and submerge it ? Could Jojen's green dream become concretly true (and not only metaphoric like it is with the Iron born) ? Could Winterfell have an end as a drowning place, after Summerhall was burnt ? When Catelyn, in AGOT, is climbing to the Eyrie and watching to the Giant's spears, and when she thinks that an avalanche could be catastrophic, could it be a foreshadowing for the fall of the Wall and the consequences ? 

All the "under the sea" could really have a litteral sense. And the "drowned God" could also be really drowned, after all. 

There is a theory I believe @cgrav first posited that the Wall is a giant Other, perhaps the Great Other.  Based on what happened to the Other slain by Sam with the dragonglass dagger, perhaps the same might happen to the Wall if subjected to an analogous impact (e.g. meteor), producing an enormous 'puddle'!

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A Storm of Swords - Samwell I

When he opened his eyes the Other's armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked.

Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. "Mother, that's cold."

"Obsidian." Sam struggled to his knees. "Dragonglass, they call it. Dragonglass. Dragon glass." He giggled, and cried, and doubled over to heave his courage out onto the snow.

You know, don't you Gloubie, that 'weirwood' is derived from the word 'weir' which is a kind 'dam', designed to regulate the water level of a river:

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From:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weir

Flood control and altering river conditions

Weirs are commonly used to control the flow rates of rivers during periods of high discharge. Sluice gates (or in some cases the height of the weir crest) can be altered to increase or decrease the volume of water flowing downstream. Weirs of this purpose are commonly found upstream of towns and villages and can either be automated or manually operated. By slowing the rate at which water moves downstream even slightly a disproportionate effect can be had on the likelihood of flooding. On larger rivers a weir can also alter the flow characteristics of a river to the point that vessels are able to navigate areas previously inaccessible due to extreme currents or eddies. Many larger weirs will have features built in that allow boats and river users to 'shoot the weir' and pass up/down stream without having to exit the river.

Drawbacks

19th century weir of porphyry stone on a creek in the Alps. During periods of high river flow this weir would be significantly more substantial.

Because a weir impounds water behind it and alters the flow regime of the river it can have an effect on the local ecology. Typically the reduced river velocity upstream can lead to increased siltation (deposition of fine particles of silt and clay on the river bottom) that reduces the water oxygen content and smothers invertebrate habitat and fish spawning sites. The oxygen content typically returns to normal once water has passed over the weir crest (although it can be hyper-oxygenated), although increased river velocity can scour the river bed causing erosion and habitat loss.

Weirs can have a significant effect on fish migration. Any weir that exceeds either the maximum vertical height a species can jump or creates flow conditions that cannot be bypassed (e.g., due to excessive water velocity) effectively limits the maximum point upstream that fish can migrate. In some cases this can mean that huge lengths of breeding habitat are lost and over time this can have a significant impact of fish populations. In many countries it is now a requirement by law to build fish ladders into the design of a weir that ensures that fish can bypass the barrier and access upstream habitat. Unlike dams, weirs do not usually prevent downstream fish migration (as water flows over the top and allows fish to bypass the structure), although they can create flow conditions that injure juvenile fish.. Recent studies suggest that navigation locks have also potential to provide increased access for a range of biota, including poor swimmers.

Even though the water around weirs can often appear relatively calm, they can be extremely dangerous places to boat, swim, or wade, as the circulation patterns on the downstream side—typically called a hydraulic jump— can submerge a person indefinitely. This phenomenon is so well known to canoeists, kayakers, and others who spend time on rivers that they even have a rueful name for weirs: "drowning machines".

Should the weir fail therefore, everything 'downstream' will be submerged, so there could be something to your theory, given that I believe the Wall is a weir built around and by a weirwood -- the Black Gate.

Qorin tells Jon that if the Wall fails, all the fires will go out -- perhaps because they will become submerged.  It would be analogous to what happened with Garin drowning the Valyrians and himself in a deluge.  When Jon thinks about Qorin's statement, the idea of the Wall falling is juxtaposed with a curtain of falling water, the waterfall behind which Jon, Qohrin and Ghost are sheltering in a cave for the night -- which might substantiate the idea of a flood when the Wall comes down:

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A Clash of Kings - Jon VIII

"When I was no older than you, I heard a brother tell how he followed a shadowcat through these falls." He unsaddled his horse, removed her bit and bridle, and ran his fingers through her shaggy mane. "There is a way through the heart of the mountain. Come dawn, if they have not found us, we will press on. The first watch is mine, brother." Qhorin seated himself on the sand, his back to a wall, no more than a vague black shadow in the gloom of the cave. Over the rush of falling waters, Jon heard a soft sound of steel on leather that could only mean that the Halfhand had drawn his sword.

He took off his wet cloak, but it was too cold and damp here to strip down any further. Ghost stretched out beside him and licked his glove before curling up to sleep. Jon was grateful for his warmth. He wondered if the fire was still burning outside, or if it had gone out by now. If the Wall should ever fall, all the fires will go out. The moon shone through the curtain of falling water to lay a shimmering pale stripe across the sand, but after a time that too faded and went dark.

Sleep came at last, and with it nightmares. He dreamed of burning castles and dead men rising unquiet from their graves. It was still dark when Qhorin woke him. While the Halfhand slept, Jon sat with his back to the cave wall, listening to the water and waiting for the dawn.

 

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Wow... I like this ! 

Are the Nightwatcher kind of whores ? Wed by force to a Wall who is a sword and a snake/worm (both as phallic symbol) ? Where do whores go ? I just suspect we will discover that all the whore's stuff with Tyrion (and also others characters, but Tyrion as 3rd head of the dragon might be the essential point) has a great sense, also symbolic, in the whole story, far more than only sex and love stories. 

Yes, the Night's Watchmen are forbidden to take wives.  Instead, they are symbolically wedded to the Wall -- some of them, like Jon and Sam, even say their vows in front of a heart tree as in traditional northern weddings, where that alone suffices as a solemn binding commitment.  In the story of the Night's King, the Night's King is the whore who is wedded to the Night's Queen -- the Other or Wall analog -- who is the master of him.  She takes everything from him: 'his seed' (i.e. his fertility), his soul, his warmth, his life.  She's a deathtrap.

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A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

 "Are you sure this is the place you saw in your dream? Maybe we have the wrong castle."

"No. This is the castle. There is a gate here."

Yes, thought Bran, but it's blocked by stone and ice.

As the sun began to set the shadows of the towers lengthened and the wind blew harder, sending gusts of dry dead leaves rattling through the yards. The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

As @LmL has deduced, 'Nissa Nissa' or 'Night's Queen' can be interpreted as the weirwood to which a greenseer is wed.  So, this story is an allegory for a greenseer entering the weirwood.  The Night's King is surely a greenseer (as suggested by his superhuman powers of 'vision' spying on others from the superior vantage point 'atop the Wall'...as if endowed with a 'Myrish lens' = telescope...Myrish lenses another metaphor for the 'third eye'). 

Likewise, when Bran formally enters the weirwood, the pact is described as being 'wed' to the trees.  Note that Bran is reluctant to marry a tree, so I see him as the one coerced into an arrangement he really does not want, although he goes along with it (I think he'd rather be with Meera).  In this scenario, Bran is the 'sex slave,' with the trees and/or the Children as the 'clients'.  

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"Your blood makes you a greenseer," said Lord Brynden. "This will help awaken your gifts and wed you to the trees."

Bran did want to be married to a tree … but who else would wed a broken boy like him? A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. A greenseer.

He ate.

Bran and Bloodraven must service many trees at a time, just like prostitutes!  In case you think I'm exaggerating, consider GRRM's highly suggestive language in which Bloodraven's body is being obscenely penetrated by the phallic roots ('grave worms', 'milk snakes'):

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

His body was so skeletal and his clothes so rotted that at first Bran took him for another corpse, a dead man propped up so long that the roots had grown over him, under him, and through him. What skin the corpse lord showed was white, save for a bloody blotch that crept up his neck onto his cheek. His white hair was fine and thin as root hair and long enough to brush against the earthen floor. Roots coiled around his legs like wooden serpents. One burrowed through his breeches into the desiccated flesh of his thigh, to emerge again from his shoulder. A spray of dark red leaves sprouted from his skull, and grey mushrooms spotted his brow. A little skin remained, stretched across his face, tight and hard as white leather, but even that was fraying, and here and there the brown and yellow bone beneath was poking through.

There's also a parallel between the greenseers and fire priestesses like Melisandre who begin their journey being sold to R'hlorr as sex slaves.

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A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. "Melony," she heard a woman cry. A man's voice called, "Lot Seven." She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.

 

9 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

The tears of the whores makes me also think to the "maiden blood", and the weirwoods have usualy bloody tears. Why not also couldn't we link the tears to the "mother tears" : the bloody and salty tears when she loses a child, and also when she gives birth. Catelyn as Alyssa failed to cry and to fertilize the land. Cersei refuses to cry because she sees it as a weakness. Finally, could the Wall be a huge river of frozen tears ? A non-accomplished mourning, like the tears of Alyssa ? 

I like the idea of the Wall as a huge river of tears elaborated by the one imprisoned for thousands of years in the Black Gate.  Ice conserves; fire preserves.  So one may view the Wall -- basically a weirwood, according to my hypothesis -- as a structure frozen in time.  Timeless, just like Bloodraven's cave.  This is in keeping with greensight via the vehicle of the weirwoods -- 'weirnet' -- which permits seeing into the past, present as well as future ('time is different for a tree,' etc.), whereas fire-reading does not allow a glimpse into the past.  

In connection with the 'mother's tears,' at Catelyn's death at the Red Wedding she is transformed into a weeping weirwood figure, with her red hair, pale skin, raised hands and 'tears' of blood.  Note, she compares her fingernails to 'ten fierce ravens' -- so in symbolic terms that means ravens are perching on her as if she were a weirwood tree.  The 'deep furrows on her face that ran red with blood' are reminiscent of the facial features carved into the weirwood tree, which GRRM has compared to 'wounds', 'tears,' 'blood', etc.  Catelyn raises her hands like Thistle as if to gouge out her eyes -- just like a weirwood tree which has empty sockets instead of eyes.  Afterwards, Catelyn's blue Tully eyes are transformed into 'pits', conveying this idea of someone's eyes having been put out.  At other times Lady Stoneheart's eyes are compared to red fires and rubies, just like the weirwoods.

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A Storm of Swords - Catelyn VII

Finally someone took the knife away from her. The tears burned like vinegar as they ran down her cheeks. Ten fierce ravens were raking her face with sharp talons and tearing off strips of flesh, leaving deep furrows that ran red with blood. She could taste it on her lips.

It hurts so much, she thought. Our children, Ned, all our sweet babes. Rickon, Bran, Arya, Sansa, Robb . . . Robb . . . please, Ned, please, make it stop, make it stop hurting . . . The white tears and the red ones ran together until her face was torn and tattered, the face that Ned had loved. Catelyn Stark raised her hands and watched the blood run down her long fingers, over her wrists, beneath the sleeves of her gown. Slow red worms crawled along her arms and under her clothes. It tickles. That made her laugh until she screamed. "Mad," someone said, "she's lost her wits," and someone else said, "Make an end," and a hand grabbed her scalp just as she'd done with Jinglebell, and she thought, No, don't, don't cut my hair, Ned loves my hair. Then the steel was at her throat, and its bite was red and cold.

Given that Catelyn is a weeping weirwood figure, and we're told 'the white tears and red ran together,' it's not inconsistent that a weirwood such as the 'Black Gate' should weep 'white tears' too.

But as I mentioned to @Brad Stark above, one should take the nature of clear tears with a grain of salt (bad pun, I know ).  Sometimes 'tears' are not what they seam...I mean, seem!  For example, the 'Tears of Lys' (which put one in mind of 'Alyssa's tears' and Lysa Arren).  Is that the same poison as the one dissolved into the waters of the cold, black pool at the House of Black and White, from which the supplicants receive the 'gift' of death?

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A Dance with Dragons - The Ugly Little Girl

The vaults were full of old clothing, garments claimed from those who came to the House of Black and White to drink peace from the temple pool. Everything from beggar's rags to rich silks and velvets could be found there. An ugly girl should dress in ugly clothing, she decided, so she chose a stained brown cloak fraying at the hem, a musty green tunic smelling of fish, and a pair of heavy boots. Last of all she palmed her finger knife.

There was no haste, so she decided to take the long way round to the Purple Harbor. Across the bridge she went, to the Isle of the Gods. Cat of the Canals had sold cockles and mussels amongst the temples here, whenever Brusco's daughter Talea had her moon blood flowing and took to her bed. She half-expected to see Talea selling there today, perhaps outside the Warren where all the forgotten godlings had their forlorn little shrines, but that was silly. The day was too cold, and Talea never liked to wake this early. The statue outside the shrine of the Weeping Lady of Lys was crying silver tears as the ugly girl walked by. In the Gardens of Gelenei stood a gilded tree a hundred feet high with leaves of hammered silver. Torchlight glimmered behind windows of leaded glass in the Lord of Harmony's wooden hall, showing half a hundred kinds of butterflies in all their bright colors.

 

The World of Ice and Fire - Beyond the Free Cities: Sothoryos

In Septon Barth's Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns, he speculated that the bloodmages of Valyria used wyvern stock to create dragons. Though the bloodmages were alleged to have experimented mightily with their unnatural arts, this claim is considered far-fetched by most maesters, among them Maester Vanyon's Against the Unnatural contains certain proofs of dragons having existed in Westeros even in the earliest of days, before Valyria rose to be a power.

There are riches hidden amongst the jungles and swamps and sullen, sun-baked rivers of the south, beyond a doubt, but for every man who finds gold or pearls or precious spices, there are a hundred who find only death. The corsairs of the Basilisk Isles prey upon these settlements, carrying off captives to holding pens on Talon and the Isle of Tears before selling them to the flesh markets of Slaver's Bay, or the pillow houses and pleasure gardens of Lys. And the native races grow ever more savage and primitive the farther one travels from the coasts.

Lys, specifically, is associated with 'the pillow houses and pleasure gardens' -- i.e. the brothels.  In addition to the 'tears of Lys' being a poison administered by Lysa to her estranged husband at the behest of a brothelkeeper, i.e. Littlefinger, who has arguably enslaved her into his service; tears are associated with slavery by the tattoos the sex slaves and soldiers wear, and the 'Isle of Tears' where the captives are held before being sold.

By the way, Gloubie, have you seen this thread in which @YOVMO compares the Black Gate to a hymen, making Bran's passage through the Black Gate equivalent to the taking of a maidenhead?!  So, as @Isobel Harper has highlighted, it's a kind of beheading!  But whose?  Bran's?  The Gate's?  The heads of the children are being swapped, just like in Theon's and Jon's dreams -- Bran goes north, in exchange for 'Monster' Gilly's baby who goes south (not sure what it means though).

Jon's dream:

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon II

Whether the wrong-way rangers would return was another question. Knights they might be, but they did not know the north. There will be eyes along the kingsroad, not all of them friendly. It was none of Jon's concern, though. Let Stannis have his secrets. The gods know that I have mine.

Ghost slept at the foot of the bed that night, and for once Jon did not dream he was a wolf. Even so, he slept fitfully, tossing for hours before sliding down into a nightmare. Gilly was in it, weeping, pleading with him to leave her babes alone, but he ripped the children from her arms and hacked their heads off, then swapped the heads around and told her to sew them back in place.

Related to YOVMO's thread and relevant to our current discussion is this excellent discussion:

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I wouldn't rule out a connection; quite the opposite given that the further we move down this particular rabbit hole the more connections are revealed.

I've suggested before, citing the many different faces in the weirwood grove near Castle Black that those faces reflect those sacrificed to the trees. I'm willing to believe that this may also be the case here, but with the all-important difference that while those faces appearing above ground are frozen [in the sense of petrified rather than chilled] and effectively "dead", an underground one in the damp and in the darkness may still be soft and "alive" - but certainly not carved.

I agree that a greenseer might be alive and buried in a sense beneath the Wall somewhere.  There are plenty of hot springs to warm up those dark places. And yes, the carved faces reflect those who are sacrificed.  We see that in the drunken ash, the old chestnut and the oak that Jon espies on the way to Moletown.   

[LynnS]

@ravenous reader  Thank you for that fascinating post!  There is so much there I don't where to start. 

[Melifeather]

On 3/12/2017 at 3:22 AM, ravenous reader said:

Yeah -- the heart tree!

I'm thinking of the ancient greenseer trapped in the black gate.  He's the analog of a dragon trapped in a tree that you often find in many comparative mythologies.  

Alternatively, maybe the dragon as Wall has swallowed him?  There's all that talk of the 'ice dragon's gullet' or 'bowels'.

 

Summer saw a great winged snake released from the ruins of Winterfell:

The ashes fell like a soft grey snow.

He padded over dry needles and brown leaves, to the edge of the wood where the pines grew thin. Beyond the open fields he could see the great piles of man-rock stark against the swirling flames. The wind blew hot and rich with the smell of blood and burnt meat, so strong he began to slaver.

Yet as one smell drew them onward, others warned them back. He sniffed at the drifting smoke. Men, many men, many horses, and fire, fire, fire. No smell was more dangerous, not even the hard cold smell of iron, the stuff of man-claws and hardskin. The smoke and ash clouded his eyes, and in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame. He bared his teeth, but then the snake was gone. Behind the cliffs tall fires were eating up the stars.

 

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

<snip>

The business of the hinges screaming like damned souls is interesting.  The screaming iron hinges motif occurs regularly throughout the story. The Wall is one of the hinges of the world. When the door is frozen shut over millennia, the hinge screams when it is forced open.  The screaming hinge first appears in relation to the Others in the Prologue of Game of Thrones:

The icy sword and the beast screaming in pain both personifications of the Wall as the sword and the serpent.  The door is forced and the power of the Wall is accessible to the Other.

The screaming hinge is repeated frequently in Aeron Greyjoy's dreams of Euron and in Ned's dream of Lyanna.

The darker implication is that Euron molested his brother and that Lyanna was forced against her will as well.  That act of violation and the birth of Jon Snow triggers the storm of petals blue as the eyes of death and what will follow.

<snip>     

 

 

The discussion about the ice cells having screaming iron hinges makes me wonder who or what was contained behind an iron hinge and when was it/he/she let out? 

That man is dead. Aeron had drowned and been reborn from the sea, the god’s own prophet. No mortal man could frighten him, no more than the darkness could . . . nor memories, the bones of the soul. The sound of a door opening, the scream of a rusted iron hinge. Euron has come again. It did not matter. He was the Damphair priest, beloved of the god.

And

He had run before the Crow’s Eye as if he were still the weak thing he had been, but when the waves broke over his head they reminded once more that that man was dead. I was reborn from the sea, a harder man and stronger. No mortal man could frighten him, no more than the darkness could, nor the bones of his soul, the grey and grisly bones of his soul. The sound of a door opening, the scream of a rusted iron hinge.

And

Even a priest may doubt. Even a prophet may know terror. Aeron Damphair reached within himself for his god and discovered only silence. As a thousand voices shouted out his brother’s name, all he could hear was the scream of a rusted iron hinge.

We are told multiple times "that man is/was dead" in the same paragraph as "drowned" or in conjunction with "waves" and "screaming iron hinge".  Someone that was thought to be drowned and dead has been released and set free. 

Edited to add: much has been made about the rotted condition of Brynden Bloodraven Rivers, but one could also describe him as having been drowned and lost in the great northern sea. What if Bran's "imprisonment" means his release? He could also be described as a great winged snake of a dragon.

 

[Black Crow]

We're moving a touch off topic here, but Aeron's screaming hinges all revolve around repressed memories as to childhood abuse.

As to Brynden Blackwood and Brandon Stark, however, I do suspect that imprisonment is involved. Bran we know was decoyed north in the belief that he might walk again and that business of "staying dead" can be interpreted both ways. Yes, enemies will not hunt him if they believe him dead, but equally nobody is going to attempt a rescue if they believe him already dead. 

[LynnS]

13 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

He had run before the Crow’s Eye as if he were still the weak thing he had been, but when the waves broke over his head they reminded once more that that man was dead. I was reborn from the sea, a harder man and stronger. No mortal man could frighten him, no more than the darkness could, nor the bones of his soul, the grey and grisly bones of his soul. The sound of a door opening, the scream of a rusted iron hinge.

I don't want to stray too off topic and Euron could be a whole other topic on it's own; although the subject of repressed memory is interesting.  There are times when I think Bran's memories are deliberately being repressed.  For example, his crow dream of the golden man which is interrupted by the crow screaming and telling him he doesn't need that now.  Or the dream of Ned in the crypt telling Bran something about Jon which he can't quite remember. Whatever it was that Bran saw in the heart of winter that so traumatized him never seems to enter his thoughts afterward.  At the end of his coma dream before regaining consiousness, the crow screams and then transforms into the washer woman. To my mind, the screaming or screaming hinge represents a hinge opening or closing like a door to the otherword.   I'm not so sure that the same thing isn't happening to Aeron.  Euron's famous speech where declares himself a godly man, the first storm and the last, his transformation from the crow's eye to the blood eye (WoW) makes me wonder if he isn't an abomination in more ways than one.  His personal sigil seems to represent the 3EC. 

Edit: With Euron and the Damphair;  we have the corrupted version of the Storm God giving his seed to the Drowned God.

But back to the Wall and the Black Gate.  I don't think it's out of the question that the Black Gate and the Whitetree wierwood are the same thing.  If the gate is a living man; then stuffing sheep and burnt offerings of whatever else into the maw of that tree makes some sense, in that something is literally being fed. The tree itself doesn't bear the image of an old, old man but given it's size, it is incredibly old.  Perhaps because the tree doesn't bear the image of the BG; it's not a tree that the greenseer can 'see' through.  Therefore the Black Gate is blind.   

[cgrav]

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

We're moving a touch off topic here, but Aeron's screaming hinges all revolve around repressed memories as to childhood abuse.

Within his own memories, yes, but it's broader motif that I believe refers to the return of long-absent magic. As part of that motif, Aeron's screaming hinges refer to Euron's return with his magical horn.

[LynnS]

19 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

A Dance with Dragons - Jon II

Whether the wrong-way rangers would return was another question. Knights they might be, but they did not know the north. There will be eyes along the kingsroad, not all of them friendly. It was none of Jon's concern, though. Let Stannis have his secrets. The gods know that I have mine.

Ghost slept at the foot of the bed that night, and for once Jon did not dream he was a wolf. Even so, he slept fitfully, tossing for hours before sliding down into a nightmare. Gilly was in it, weeping, pleading with him to leave her babes alone, but he ripped the children from her arms and hacked their heads off, then swapped the heads around and told her to sew them back in place.

I think I'll take a crack at this one.

Weeping Tears of Blood

I’ve come across the reference to “weeping tears of blood” four times now.  Two references come from Sam fleeing from Craster’s Keep to the Wall and two are from dreams; Jon and Ned respectively.

 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Samwell III

Sam did not know what he hoped to find in the empty houses. Maybe the wildlings had left some food behind. He had to take a look. Jon had searched the huts at Whitetree, on their way north. Inside one hovel Sam heard a rustling of rats from a dark corner, but otherwise there was nothing in any of them but old straw, old smells, and some ashes beneath the smoke hole.

He turned back to the weirwood and studied the carved face a moment. It is not the face we saw, he admitted to himself. The tree's not half as big as the one at Whitetree. The red eyes wept blood, and he didn't remember that either. Clumsily, Sam sank to his knees. "Old gods, hear my prayer. The Seven were my father's gods but I said my words to you when I joined the Watch. Help us now. I fear we might be lost. We're hungry too, and so cold. I don't know what gods I believe in now, but . . . please, if you're there, help us. Gilly has a little son." That was all that he could think to say. The dusk was deepening, the leaves of the weirwood rustling softly, waving like a thousand blood-red hands. Whether Jon's gods had heard him or not he could not say.  SoS Samwell III

A Storm of Swords - Samwell III

Whitetree, Sam thought. Please, let this be Whitetree. He remembered Whitetree. Whitetree was on the maps he'd drawn, on their way north. If this village was Whitetree, he knew where they were. Please, it has to be. He wanted that so badly that he forgot his feet for a little bit, he forgot the ache in his calves and his lower back and the stiff frozen fingers he could scarcely feel. He even forgot about Lord Mormont and Craster and the wights and the Others. Whitetree, Sam prayed, to any god that might be listening.

All wildling villages looked much alike, though. A huge weirwood grew in the center of this one . . . but a white tree did not mean Whitetree, necessarily. Hadn't the weirwood at Whitetree been bigger than this one? Maybe he was remembering it wrong. The face carved into the bone pale trunk was long and sad; red tears of dried sap leaked from its eyes. Was that how it looked when we came north? Sam couldn't recall.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

Val stood on the platform as still as if she had been carved of salt. She will not weep nor look away. Jon wondered what Ygritte would have done in her place. The women are the strong ones. He found himself thinking about Sam and Maester Aemon, about Gilly and the babe. She will curse me with her dying breath, but I saw no other way. Eastwatch reported savage storms upon the narrow sea. I meant to keep them safe. Did I feed them to the crabs instead? Last night he had dreamed of Sam drowning, of Ygritte dying with his arrow in her (it had not been his arrow, but in his dreams it always was), of Gilly weeping tears of blood.

Eddard XIII

He was walking through the crypts beneath Winterfell, as he had walked a thousand times before. The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice, and the direwolves at their feet turned their great stone heads and snarled. Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. "Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.  - Eddard XIII

A Dance with Dragons - Jon II
Whether the wrong-way rangers would return was another question. Knights they might be, but they did not know the north. There will be eyes along the kingsroad, not all of them friendly. It was none of Jon's concern, though. Let Stannis have his secrets. The gods know that I have mine.
Ghost slept at the foot of the bed that night, and for once Jon did not dream he was a wolf. Even so, he slept fitfully, tossing for hours before sliding down into a nightmare. Gilly was in it, weeping, pleading with him to leave her babes alone, but he ripped the children from her arms and hacked their heads off, then swapped the heads around and told her to sew them back in place.
When he woke, he found Edd Tollett looming over him in the darkness of his bedchamber. "M'lord? It is time. The hour of the wolf. You left orders to be woken."

 

 

The similarities between Lyanna and Gilly certainly stand out.  Gilly must give her son Monster to the Cold Gods (the Others); while Lyanna gives her son to the Old Gods (Drowned God).  Jon and Monster are sacrificed; hence the tears of blood.  But while Gilly's son is actually switched with Mance's son; Jon is not a baby switch in the same way.  This is about switching identities.  Jon's identity has already been switched; he is no longer the son of Robert the Stag; he's the son of Ned, the Direwolf; his identity switched at birth.

The circumstances of Robert's death are interesting, not only that he extracts promises from Ned to take care of his son in an echo of Lyanna's promises;  Robert hunts the white hart or white stag to his death.. He doesn't find the white hart because the wolves get to him first.

 In Celtic theology, the white stag leads the wild hunt to the otherworld:

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The white stag, like many other mythical creatures, wanders through the tangled forests and wild moorlands of our distant past.   Elusive and rare, our forefathers may have caught a glimpse in some hidden glade in the woods,  or seen it moving ghost-like across the wild moors, or maybe stood high on a rocky outcrop crowned against the sky.  The white stag was always something to be desired yet always out of reach. Always leading the hunt onwards, ever onwards, to a destiny ordained by the gods.  From the dark, distant memories of the Wild Hunt have grown the very stuff of legends.

In Celtic mythology, the White Stag symbolises the existence of the Otherworld and that forces from the Otherworld are present and in action.   The Celtic god Cernunnos was depicted zoomorphically as a man with horns growing from his head.

In earlier times the Celts believed that the white stag was an agent from the ‘Other world’ and a bringer of great changes to those it encountered. The white stag often appeared when something sacred, or a law or code, was being broken.

https://ztevetevans.wordpress.com/2014/04/26/mythical-beasts-the-white-stag/  

 

The symbolism of the white stag also has an expression in the white fawn or the newborn stag.  This comes up in the song of Wenda the White Fawn whose banner is a white fawn;  but more importantly in Robert's celebration of his victory at Summerhall:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Davos IV

"Yes, Your Grace." He does not speak of me. Davos felt a moment's pity for his cellmate down in the dark. He knew he should keep silent, but he was tired and sick of heart, and he heard himself say, "Sire, Lord Florent meant no treason."

"Do smugglers have another name for it? I made him Hand, and he would have sold my rights for a bowl of pease porridge. He would even have given them Shireen. Mine only child, he would have wed to a bastard born of incest." The king's voice was thick with anger. "My brother had a gift for inspiring loyalty. Even in his foes. At Summerhall he won three battles in a single day, and brought Lords Grandison and Cafferen back to Storm's End as prisoners. He hung their banners in the hall as trophies. Cafferen's white fawns were spotted with blood and Grandison's sleeping lion was torn near in two. Yet they would sit beneath those banners of a night, drinking and feasting with Robert. He even took them hunting. 'These men meant to deliver you to Aerys to be burned,' I told him after I saw them throwing axes in the yard. 'You should not be putting axes in their hands.' Robert only laughed. I would have thrown Grandison and Cafferen into a dungeon, but he turned them into friends. Lord Cafferen died at Ashford Castle, cut down by Randyll Tarly whilst fighting for Robert. Lord Grandison was wounded on the Trident and died of it a year after. My brother made them love him, but it would seem that I inspire only betrayal. Even in mine own blood and kin. Brother, grandfather, cousins, good uncle . . ."

 

If GRRM snuck a birth announcement in anywhere; I suspect this is it.   The sleeping lion nearly torn in two signalling a difficult birth.

 

[cgrav]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

 

But back to the Wall and the Black Gate.  I don't think it's out of the question that the Black Gate and the Whitetree wierwood are the same thing.  If the gate is a living man; then stuffing sheep and burnt offerings of whatever else into the maw of that tree makes some sense, in that something is literally being fed. The tree itself doesn't bear the image of an old, old man but given it's size, it is incredibly old.  Perhaps because the tree doesn't bear the image of the BG; it's not a tree that the greenseer can 'see' through.  Therefore the Black Gate is blind.   

I think the Black Gate's watery "tear" means that it was activated (?) by something other than a human sacrifice. My feeling is that it's connected to the Wall and thus has water flowing in it rather than the blood/sap that the rest have. This would be the one Weirwood still active without blood/fire magic, which could indicate that it was not usurped by men when they migrated to the continent. I think the Black Gate has a more direct and active connection to the Others, CoTF, and original Last Hero gang.

I would therefore conclude that it's also NOT wired into the rest of the weirnet. 

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, cgrav said:

I think the Black Gate's watery "tear" means that it was activated (?) by something other than a human sacrifice. My feeling is that it's connected to the Wall and thus has water flowing in it rather than the blood/sap that the rest have. This would be the one Weirwood still active without blood/fire magic, which could indicate that it was not usurped by men when they migrated to the continent. I think the Black Gate has a more direct and active connection to the Others, CoTF, and original Last Hero gang.

I would therefore conclude that it's also NOT wired into the rest of the weirnet. 

That has a logic to it that I like!

[Melifeather]

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

We're moving a touch off topic here, but Aeron's screaming hinges all revolve around repressed memories as to childhood abuse.

As to Brynden Blackwood and Brandon Stark, however, I do suspect that imprisonment is involved. Bran we know was decoyed north in the belief that he might walk again and that business of "staying dead" can be interpreted both ways. Yes, enemies will not hunt him if they believe him dead, but equally nobody is going to attempt a rescue if they believe him already dead. 

 

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I don't want to stray too off topic and Euron could be a whole other topic on it's own; although the subject of repressed memory is interesting.  There are times when I think Bran's memories are deliberately being repressed.  For example, his crow dream of the golden man which is interrupted by the crow screaming and telling him he doesn't need that now.  Or the dream of Ned in the crypt telling Bran something about Jon which he can't quite remember. Whatever it was that Bran saw in the heart of winter that so traumatized him never seems to enter his thoughts afterward.  At the end of his coma dream before regaining consiousness, the crow screams and then transforms into the washer woman. To my mind, the screaming or screaming hinge represents a hinge opening or closing like a door to the otherword.   I'm not so sure that the same thing isn't happening to Aeron.  Euron's famous speech where declares himself a godly man, the first storm and the last, his transformation from the crow's eye to the blood eye (WoW) makes me wonder if he isn't an abomination in more ways than one.  His personal sigil seems to represent the 3EC. 

Edit: With Euron and the Damphair;  we have the corrupted version of the Storm God giving his seed to the Drowned God.

But back to the Wall and the Black Gate.  I don't think it's out of the question that the Black Gate and the Whitetree wierwood are the same thing.  If the gate is a living man; then stuffing sheep and burnt offerings of whatever else into the maw of that tree makes some sense, in that something is literally being fed. The tree itself doesn't bear the image of an old, old man but given it's size, it is incredibly old.  Perhaps because the tree doesn't bear the image of the BG; it's not a tree that the greenseer can 'see' through.  Therefore the Black Gate is blind.   

 

35 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Within his own memories, yes, but it's broader motif that I believe refers to the return of long-absent magic. As part of that motif, Aeron's screaming hinges refer to Euron's return with his magical horn.

 Answering all above...to clarify, I was referring to Bloodraven, not Euron. Keeping in line with the inversion theory I would apply Aeron's words to Bloodraven. He left the Wall in search of the Children. To the rest of the world he's dead and Bran has been told he's nearly gone into the trees. But what if he isn't? What if he's been released from bondage now that Bran is there? Not in physical form, but like the smoky snake/dragon that Summer saw he could assume a different sort of life. That man may not be dead, and the squeaky hinge opening may be the sound of his release.

[LynnS]

16 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Edited to add: much has been made about the rotted condition of Brynden Bloodraven Rivers, but one could also describe him as having been drowned and lost in the great northern sea. What if Bran's "imprisonment" means his release? He could also be described as a great winged snake of a dragon.

Just a brief comment about the question of what happens to Bloodraven when he is schedule to expire.  I've wondered about it as well.  I assume that he goes into the tree but I wonder if he has created another vessel for himself in Euron and is sometimes present when Aeron detects when the storm god among them.  Not unlike Bran making use of Hodor from time to time.  Perhaps BR wil make the final leap to Euron Blood-Eye at some point.  Also is BR the three eyed crow or three eyed raven.  Most people can't tell the difference between a crow and raven when they see them.     

The smoky dragon representation may be the direwolf's ability to sense or see the spiritual or otherworld; lifting the veil in other words.  So I don't discount this as BR's great escape.  Euron's express purpose is to set the world on fire. 

[cgrav]

1 minute ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

 

 Answering all above...to clarify, I was referring to Bloodraven, not Euron. Keeping in line with the inversion theory I would apply Aeron's words to Bloodraven. He left the Wall in search of the Children. To the rest of the world he's dead and Bran has been told he's nearly gone into the trees. But what if he isn't? What if he's been released from bondage now that Bran is there? Not in physical form, but like the smoky snake/dragon that Summer saw he could assume a different sort of life. That man may not be dead, and the squeaky hinge opening may be the sound of his release.

I would say that Bloodraven is a part of the magic coming back into the world, but I think it goes beyond him. There's a trove of gate/door symbolism throughout the story, and the places mentioned as "hinges of the world" sit at points where powerful forces (Others, Dragons, meteors?) have been held back. Those gates are being pushed open on rusty old hinges. 

Consider that we have a Black Gate at a Hinge of the World, and a guy whose name means Gate's Mouth (Tormund) makes a deal to cross the Wall south, in an event likely foreshadowing the crossing of Others/wights. 

Theres a brief discussion of this same thing in the most recent Mythical Astronomy thread with more detail, and it shows that the themes and symbols line up well with a broad interpretation of the screaming hinges.

[LynnS]

8 minutes ago, cgrav said:

I would say that Bloodraven is a part of the magic coming back into the world, but I think it goes beyond him. There's a trove of gate/door symbolism throughout the story, and the places mentioned as "hinges of the world" sit at points where powerful forces (Others, Dragons, meteors?) have been held back. Those gates are being pushed open on rusty old hinges. 

Consider that we have a Black Gate at a Hinge of the World, and a guy whose name means Gate's Mouth (Tormund) makes a deal to cross the Wall south, in an event likely foreshadowing the crossing of Others/wights. 

Theres a brief discussion of this same thing in the most recent Mythical Astronomy thread with more detail, and it shows that the themes and symbols line up well with a broad interpretation of the screaming hinges.

I agree! Not only that, I think the hinges are connected to each other.  We see that in the House of Undying with not only a representation of the Black Gate; but the doors of the House of Black and White inside the HoU. The business of the poison well in the HoB@W; Arya curing her blindless by drinking from the well and the wierwood root/branch coming up through the well inside the Night Fort is all crooked stitching, if you ask me.

I haven't read LML's thread but hopefully he is game when Part II of the Wall essay - Hinges of the World is posted after Old Nan's tales.  I know there are a number of people eager to get in on that discussion as well.

[Brad Stark]

What's the connection between BR and Euron?  Euron mentions the crow lied to him about flying.   Any significance to them both missing an eye?

[cgrav]

Just now, LynnS said:

I agree! Not only that, I think the hinges are connected to each other.  We see that in the House of Undying with not only a representation of the Black Gate; but the doors of the House of Black and White inside the HoU. The business of the poison well in the HoB@W; Arya curing her blindless by drinking from the well and the wierwood root/branch coming up through the well inside the Night Fort is all crooked stitching, if you ask me.  

Yes, the Weirwood growing from the well and obtaining sight from well water are both very big Odin symbols. 

Yggdrasil in Norse myth grows from a well in Asgard, and Odin has one eye because he cast the other into a well in order to gain knowledge of the future. 

Door/gate symbolism is rampant and apparently somewhat of a novel line of inquiry, but it's really opening things up the more we look into it. So far it connects really well with @LmL 's established symbolism. 

[LynnS]

9 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

What's the connection between BR and Euron?  Euron mentions the crow lied to him about flying.   Any significance to them both missing an eye?

After Euron fell off the cliffs at Pike; he asked the Maester if it was possible to fly.  I suspect neurological damage and head trauma.  He didn't actully lose an eye.  I think the pupil is permanently extended requiring the use of patch; sometimes black, sometimes red to block the sunlight.  (The Blackfyre colors!)  It suggests that he was in a coma and tested by the 3EC. It suggest that's he's a failed greenseer.  In WoW, he no longer covers his crow's eye and he's called Bloodeye.  Along with his personal sigil, that's very suggestive of Bloodraven.

[cgrav]

10 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

What's the connection between BR and Euron?  Euron mentions the crow lied to him about flying.   Any significance to them both missing an eye?

Some think that he's a thrall of Bloodraven. I personally doubt it goes that far. I suspect Bloodraven tried to skinchange Euron but gave up, which explains Euron's bout with madness. Could be he was a practice run for Bran.

The missing eye is Odin symbolism, indicating connection  to otherworldly or prophetic knowledge. But since he still actually has that eye, it means he's not the real deal. It's redness or blackness indicate being burned, which is a prominent Icarus symbol for being "burnt" trying to steal the "fire of the gods". That is, it indicates someone who got close to obtaining divine knowledge/power, but couldn't handle it.

[LynnS]

16 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Door/gate symbolism is rampant and apparently somewhat of a novel line of inquiry, but it's really opening things up the more we look into it. So far it connects really well with @LmL 's established symbolism. 

LML has and advantage over me.  I'm far older than he is and I have to take more naps than he does.  I'm going to save my commentary for the scheduled discussion on the Hinges.  I should be well rested by then.

[LynnS]

11 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Some think that he's a thrall of Bloodraven. I personally doubt it goes that far. I suspect Bloodraven tried to skinchange Euron but gave up, which explains Euron's bout with madness. Could be he was a practice run for Bran.

I suspect he's been riding Euron since he was a child and making it easier each time he invades Euron's mind.  A thrall is slave.