Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

[Eilrach Dayne]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

There is no evidence that HR did something dishonourable, there is no evidence to anything whatsoever. It can be speculated that he used the net to immobilize Dayne like Meera does, and there is an analogical use of whip in Barristan's PoV where his initial dismissal of such a weapon against a knight is overcome by seeing with his own eyes how lethal such tactics is. 

Sounds legit. I thought about poisonos darts as well which cranogmen are known to use, only that the armour would hinder the efects of that weapon. But I agree Holand used different fighting tactics. What do you think about HR using magic? some have commented on that on one of my questinos but I dont find any evidence on Howland knowing any magic.

As for fighting on horseback, as Barristan says, a honourable man would dismount. Ned was a man of honour.

I agree again, it sounds like something Ned would do. It was harder though for me to accept the KG would face them in the open field rather than wait for them in the tower. 

Not this again. It's an old dream, i.e. Ned had had it before. It's definitely not literal but its elements are true and making sense, or else Ned wouldn't elaborate on the outcome after he woke up (and he woke up perfectly lucid, by the way, so neither the drug nor the fever affected him that much). He even states (twice) that the setting is as it had been in life, namely that part "seven against three". Only he and HR survived, he built eight cairns. Facts fit.

This might be true, i just have my doubts about the fight going the way Ned remembers in his dream. I dont see how they could have won.

 

Not to let any of them get away and bring reinforcements and reveal their location.

Never thought about it that way, good point this might work. It is still hard to believe the KG lost though

Try to think about the logistics of transporting eight grown males in a hot climate. One body can be cremated or preserved somehow, but not so many of them.

Makes sense as well. How do you argue about ned and howland bringing the tower down to make the tombs though? just curious 

Because the codes of honour demanded that he revealed the existence of Rhaegar's son to Robert, which would put Jon in mortal danger, and even if he could be swayed himself, there were six more men who might have talked. Plus, with the whole possible legitimity issue, it wouldn't be just the life of a baby but the life of their king, and they are KG. They can't take such chances.

This one though i have to argue, Ned would definetley not tell Robert about the child because he would not want the child harmed. I dont think any of the six would have talked they wer Neds most loyal companions. Although i do think that the KG could have no way of knowing that they would not speak and might not trust them, why would they not trust Ned though? they knew who he was and how honorable, also if in fact it was lyannas child they were protecting they would know the baby was in no danger.

I suggest that you go and search the books on your own for all the clues, don't just rely on what someone said in the videos because they are cherrypicking there. 

You are right, am currently rereading the series and highlighting everything deemed important for the theories. The videos did sound legit though but I have to doube check because you are right about the cherrypicking, just got lazy becuase its easy to hear a bunch of videos.

BTW, have you noticed that in his PoVs, Ned never, ever, has a single thought that could be interpreted as a hint at Ashara? Even that brothel scene which has him think of Jon, brings up only Lyanna (and Rhaegar), not Ashara.

Yes i hav, I was a R+L=J advocate before i saw the green hand video it kind of got me of track i think, but the possibility of ned and ashara= jon still haunts me. I thought we dont get Ned thinking of Ashara to make it more vague. 

 

[Eilrach Dayne]

49 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

There is a SSM (So Spake Martin quotes) you probably don't know about, in response to a fan who was trying to figure out the timelines and asked GRRM if his estimate of Jon being born about a year before Dany was correct. GRRM responded that the timelines are a PITA but that Jon was born about 8-9 months before Dany. Dany was born 9 months after Rhaella's flight to Dragonstone, i.e. 9 months after the Sack which closely followed. That places Jon's birth approximately within a month since the Sack. The Rebellion lasted for about a year, i.e. Jon was conceived a couple of months into its start, long after the tourney.

Thanks for that i had no idea what SSM stood for. 

No, it is definitely not. There are other important elements, such as the haunting promiseS and the price Ned paid to keem them (burying Lyanna at Winterfell was apparently one of them but there is no price nor any reason why it should keep haunting Ned), secrets that are best kept hidden and are too dangerous to share even with those one loves and trusts (we don't know about any secret that Ned is harboring except the identity of Jon's mother), Ned referring to Jon as "my blood" instead of "my son" when he gets angry with Cat's enquiring, the whole issue of Ned being too honourable to have sex outside marriage (not to mention with a highborn girl and not marrying her) and not telling Jon what he is entitled to know, all that emphasy on Lyanna and blue roses which tie her to Rhaegar... The dream is just one element, revealing the location of Lyanna's death and tying to a previous memory of her death in a room that smelled of blood and roses where she made Ned promise.

OK yes i was aware of many of the events you describe, the promise, the price, secrets from loved ones, refering to jon as his blood but cant they all support Aegon/young griff as the promise to keep him safe? He would still be lyannas child and ned would feel the need to protect him, but his targaryen looks would be hard to desguise in westeros. On ned being to honorable to have sex outside marriage Robb did something similar and it feels to me that even though it might be true Eddard was the most honorable even he could act out of impulse of love, i always felt Martin was trying to show there was no absolute good/perfect or evil character.

Even so i see the logic behind these arguments supporting R+L=J as well. I think it could be argued to serve both theories.

 

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I'm pretty sure it's common knowledge that bastards are treated better in Dorne then they are in any other Kingdom. Dorne considers bastard born of love rather then lust. Oberyn Martell has a bastard squire, how many great lords of Westeros would let a unrelated bastard be their squire? The heir to Dorne Princess Arianne Martell had sex at a very early age and has slept with bastards. Dorne is far less prude then the rest of the realm and that's why the rest of the Kingdoms tend to hold them in a lower regard.

That is true but there are limits to all that. Oberyn and Arianne Martell can fuck and live with bastards but they cannot marry them. There is a reason why Ellaria was Oberyn's paramour and not his wife. And Arianne made it perfectly clear to Daemon Sand that there is no chance whatsoever that she as the heir of Dorne would ever marry a man like him.

Bastards and paramours are more visible and treated much better in Dorne than anywhere else in Westeros but they are still bastards and paramours, not legitimate children and spouses.

@The Twinslayer

I'd not speculate how the fight between the men at the tower went. We have basically nothing to go on. The sudden jump from weirdo ritualistic exchange to mortal violence and then Lyanna's promise in the bed of blood is pretty garbled in the dream. There might be crucial information missing there even if we (for some reason) took the dream itself completely at face value.

What we can say, though, is that Howland Reed, Eddard Stark himself, and possibly even young Ethan Glover (assuming he was a young squire) were definitely not fighters in the same league as any of the men at the tower. And while Whent and Hightower may have been older men they don't seem to have been older than in their forties (Hightower is the young Lord Commander of the Kingsguard during the War of the Ninepenny Kings, which indicates for me that he would have been in his twenties in 260 AC).

That makes the battle even more unbalanced and strange. Ned, Howland, and Glover should have been the kind of fighters men like those legendary Kingsguard can dispatch rather easily. We know a swordsman like Garlan Tyrell (one of the best swordsmen in Westeros) routinely fights against multiple opponents in the practice yard.

Now, Ned had four other companions - Lord Willam Dustin, Martyn Cassel, Theo Wull, and Ser Mark Ryswell - some of which might have been exceptional warriors. If that's the case and if we add the suicidal fighting style the Northmen used during the Dance of the Dragons under the command of another Dustin, Lord Roderick 'Roddy the Ruin' Dustin, we could, perhaps, speculate how they might have won.

But that is speculation.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

7 hours ago, Eilrach Dayne said:

you mean the Sand snakes? I believe that is more do to Oberyn than Dornish culture, like Eddard he took in his bastard daughters and gave them a better life than what they would normaly have. I dont think Dorne in general is more agreable towards bastards, thats why they still call them Sand and they dont get to be heirs to family names, castles, swords ect.

You might don't think it but it was said clearly in the books that bastards are ok in Dorne.

Quote

There are other customs besides that mark the Dornish as different. They are not greatly concerned if a child is born in wedlock or out of it, especially if the child is born to a paramour. Many lords— and even some ladies—have paramours, chosen for love and lust rather than for breeding or alliance. 

Its even in the wiki:

Quote

The Dornish are not greatly concerned about whether or not a child is trueborn or bastard-born, especially not if the child born to a paramour. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Bastardy

7 hours ago, Eilrach Dayne said:

Not a strangers child, Neds nephew (the man i believe she loved). I dont see it as abandoning her child since she knew ned would take care of him. Still it was probably a really hard choice.

Ned's nephew isn't her child. Is like saying that Ned would had abandoned his children to take care of Edmure's child far away from home. No parent would had done it.

7 hours ago, Eilrach Dayne said:

Yes she did, but tyrion almost never notices peoples eyes only the ones of people that put his life in danger. Handsome is another word for beautiful, he was clearly attracted to her and made sexual jokes about her. He notices how beautiful she must have been once and that she is still really attractive. Martin is probably making this interaction purposley deceving as well. 

So a womanizer like Tyrion meets one of the most beautiful Westerosi women ever with haunting purple eyes and he manage to never mention her eyes or how stunning she is?

7 hours ago, Eilrach Dayne said:

Tyrion describing her as handsome does not place her in her mid 40s.

It does. Handome is at least for middle age women.

7 hours ago, Eilrach Dayne said:

I dont see how one random disappearance makes it ok for Ashara to disapear, I just said that the whole idea about her suicide is weird, and the manner of her disaperance raises questions. So we should keep the posibility of her being alive or at least living beyond the supposed suicide.

So the Lady of Casterly Rock was able to dissappear and a Lady of a minor house need to fake her death? Why?

7 hours ago, Eilrach Dayne said:

I just think it is logical to assume that the Dayne house would have little love for Ned and the starks.

Again, instead of keeping Dawn Ned give it back to them. So he gave them back their most treasured heirloom. That is a reason to think of him kindly.

7 hours ago, Eilrach Dayne said:

Probablt at the tournament at harenhall or around that period before Brandon Stark went south to marry Catelyn before he found out about lyanna. I think it is very possible in my humble opinion. Im not saying im outright right, im just saying we should not disregard the possibility completely.

If you were right Jon would had been at least 6 months older than Robb so Cat would had noticed it and she wouldn't had thought that Ned betrayed her.

Second;

Quote

We know from this e-mail that Jon’s birth is 8-9 months prior to Daenerys’s, and that Daenerys is born almost precisely 9 months after the death of Rhaegar and the Sack of King’s Landing (I: 25). This would place Jon’s birth within one month, give or take, of the Sack. As we know the war lasts “close” to a year which is often just referred to as a “year” (I: 96, 233), suggesting 10-11 months is likelier than 9 months. Given this, his conception seems to have been between 1-3 months into the war. 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Who_are_Jon_Snows_parents/

 

 

7 hours ago, Eilrach Dayne said:

Can you highlight some of the proof beyond the fever dream? I feel the whole R+L=J theory is based upon that vague fever dream, which we should not take as a factual account of events.

 

[GhostNymeria]

8 hours ago, Eilrach Dayne said:

Probablt at the tournament at harenhall or around that period before Brandon Stark went south to marry Catelyn before he found out about lyanna. I think it is very possible in my humble opinion. Im not saying im outright right, im just saying we should not disregard the possibility completely.

No that's not possible unless it's a time traveling sperm.

8 hours ago, Eilrach Dayne said:

Can you highlight some of the proof beyond the fever dream? I feel the whole R+L=J theory is based upon that vague fever dream, which we should not take as a factual account of events.

So did Order of the Green Hand say the only evidence was the fever dream? Figures.

Here you go. It's the 163rd thread about it: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/144501-rlj-v163/

Also, I assume you didn't read the leaked original outline of the books? 

[Ygrain]

6 hours ago, Eilrach Dayne said:

Sounds legit. I thought about poisonos darts as well which cranogmen are known to use, only that the armour would hinder the efects of that weapon. But I agree Holand used different fighting tactics. What do you think about HR using magic? some have commented on that on one of my questinos but I dont find any evidence on Howland knowing any magic.

I don't believe HR knows any magic. I think he has a full sleeve of tricks that can be used in his natural environment and he is/was definitely fast and lithe but no magic in the sense of supernatural. He might possess some bloodline related talents like the Starks do.

6 hours ago, Eilrach Dayne said:

I agree again, it sounds like something Ned would do. It was harder though for me to accept the KG would face them in the open field rather than wait for them in the tower. 

This might be true, i just have my doubts about the fight going the way Ned remembers in his dream. I dont see how they could have won

Well...close quarters aren't ideal for sword combat, though, to use your skill to the fullest, you need space. But the fight didn't necessarily take place outside the tower and there is no telling what tactics they might have employed. Plus, bad luck happens - a sword gets stuck in the bone, a loose stone turns under the foot, perhaps even some dirty fighting like tossing something in the opponent's face?

6 hours ago, Eilrach Dayne said:

 How do you argue about ned and howland bringing the tower down to make the tombs though? just curious 

I'd bet on putting the wooden infrastructure to torch, the rest should collapse on its own.

6 hours ago, Eilrach Dayne said:

This one though i have to argue, Ned would definetley not tell Robert about the child because he would not want the child harmed. I dont think any of the six would have talked they wer Neds most loyal companions. Although i do think that the KG could have no way of knowing that they would not speak and might not trust them, why would they not trust Ned though? they knew who he was and how honorable, also if in fact it was lyannas child they were protecting they would know the baby was in no danger.

Because it's that dratted "love is the death of duty" again. Of course Ned, as we know him, wouldn't do anything that would harm his family, but he was supposed to because the loyalty to the liege comes before loyalty to family, and the KG were the very embodiment of this principle. 

Plus, there would be a clash of interests. Even if Ned could be convinced to take care of Lyanna's baby and keep him secret, there is no way he would allow him to become part of any Targaryen restoration and cause another civil war, whereas the KG would want just that. Legitimate or not, Rhaegar's son would be able a huge deal for the Targ loyalists.

 

6 hours ago, Eilrach Dayne said:

OK yes i was aware of many of the events you describe, the promise, the price, secrets from loved ones, refering to jon as his blood but cant they all support Aegon/young griff as the promise to keep him safe? He would still be lyannas child and ned would feel the need to protect him, but his targaryen looks would be hard to desguise in westeros. On ned being to honorable to have sex outside marriage Robb did something similar and it feels to me that even though it might be true Eddard was the most honorable even he could act out of impulse of love, i always felt Martin was trying to show there was no absolute good/perfect or evil character.

Oh, yes, I can see Ned slipping like Robb did, but I don't see him not rectifying it, just like Robb did. There was enough time between HH and the beginning of the Rebellion for him to marry Ashara once she found out about her pregnancy. Plus, when Barristan thinks about Ashara's suicide, he thinks that she might have been grieving for the man who dishonoured her at HH. This doesn't make sense if the man was Ned (and I don't see the point of GRRM writing Barristan as wrong about this), it seems rather that her lover was dead (and I bet on Brandon here), and Barristan's attitude towards Ned is one of deep respect, which doesn't really fit with the guy who dishonoured his platonic love.

As for Young Griff, he can be neither Lyanna's nor Ned's, because there is no way Ned would let his son or his nephew spend fourteen years in Essoss without giving a single thought to his wellbeing, no. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

11 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I don't believe HR knows any magic

[Eilrach Dayne]

2 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

 

 

Thanks, im new to the forums, just figures out about the links in the first post. I am currently rereading the series and will analyze these further, the video from the prder of the green hand made me doubt about a lot of things, I still think there is a chance N+A but will look textual evidence to support theory. But thank you again for the response!

[Eilrach Dayne]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

@The Twinslayer

I'd not speculate how the fight between the men at the tower went. We have basically nothing to go on. The sudden jump from weirdo ritualistic exchange to mortal violence and then Lyanna's promise in the bed of blood is pretty garbled in the dream. There might be crucial information missing there even if we (for some reason) took the dream itself completely at face value.

What we can say, though, is that Howland Reed, Eddard Stark himself, and possibly even young Ethan Glover (assuming he was a young squire) were definitely not fighters in the same league as any of the men at the tower. And while Whent and Hightower may have been older men they don't seem to have been older than in their forties (Hightower is the young Lord Commander of the Kingsguard during the War of the Ninepenny Kings, which indicates for me that he would have been in his twenties in 260 AC).

That makes the battle even more unbalanced and strange. Ned, Howland, and Glover should have been the kind of fighters men like those legendary Kingsguard can dispatch rather easily. We know a swordsman like Garlan Tyrell (one of the best swordsmen in Westeros) routinely fights against multiple opponents in the practice yard.

Now, Ned had four other companions - Lord Willam Dustin, Martyn Cassel, Theo Wull, and Ser Mark Ryswell - some of which might have been exceptional warriors. If that's the case and if we add the suicidal fighting style the Northmen used during the Dance of the Dragons under the command of another Dustin, Lord Roderick 'Roddy the Ruin' Dustin, we could, perhaps, speculate how they might have won.

But that is speculation.

It bothers me so much that we dont know exactly how it went down, but I truly believe they had no chance against those 3 kingsguard, we have no hint as to the Neds companions being exceptional fighters. I would rank them as moderate or average, and even if two of the companions were a little above average how could they match up against those 3? I think arthur by himself had a chance against 6 of them at least, and witht he help of whent and hightower I just can imagine any other outcome then their victory. Some people suggested Howland uses magic, is there any proof or suggestion of this? I dont think there is, the only thing I could think of is is that greywater watch ability to move in the swamps, but this could be achieved with ingeneering ability, plus Im preatty sure Greywater watch was built way back before Howlands time. Still he might now some sort of crannogmen unconventional fighting style that could have helped, even so I dont see as him poosing any real threat to any of the 3 KG. 

[Eilrach Dayne]

2 hours ago, GhostNymeria said:

No that's not possible unless it's a time traveling sperm.

So did Order of the Green Hand say the only evidence was the fever dream? Figures.

Here you go. It's the 163rd thread about it: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/144501-rlj-v163/

Also, I assume you didn't read the leaked original outline of the books? 

The order of the green hand did not say a lot against the R+L theory. But I just think that the founding stone for arguments for R+L = J is the fever dream. Still I did not know the exact timeline for Jons birth, now that I do it does seem much harder for Ned and Ashara to have concieved Jon, they would have had to be somewhere else still together after the tourney at harenhal, towards the start of the rebellion.

[Eilrach Dayne]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Oh, yes, I can see Ned slipping like Robb did, but I don't see him not rectifying it, just like Robb did. There was enough time between HH and the beginning of the Rebellion for him to marry Ashara once she found out about her pregnancy. Plus, when Barristan thinks about Ashara's suicide, he thinks that she might have been grieving for the man who dishonoured her at HH. This doesn't make sense if the man was Ned (and I don't see the point of GRRM writing Barristan as wrong about this), it seems rather that her lover was dead (and I bet on Brandon here), and Barristan's attitude towards Ned is one of deep respect, which doesn't really fit with the guy who dishonoured his platonic love.

As for Young Griff, he can be neither Lyanna's nor Ned's, because there is no way Ned would let his son or his nephew spend fourteen years in Essoss without giving a single thought to his wellbeing, no. 

You are right there was a lot of time for Ned to rectify it, like Robb if he wasnt already married or if he even knew Ashara was pregnant at that time. Maybe Ned could have had sex with Ashara just prior to going for Brandons marriage with Catelyn (before Brandon got murdered with his father in KL), then Ned immediately had to call the banners and go to war, and because they needed the Tullys had to marry Catelyn, without knowing Asahra was pregnant. Or would this be impossible in the timeline? Im really having trouble pinpointing time, so sorry if it is a big miscalculation. 

About young Griff/aegon, couldnt Ned trust in Jon connington and maybe Ashara if the other theory is to be believed to take care of the boy? Maybe he thought just, like with Daenerys, that they would be ok? 

[Ygrain]

21 minutes ago, Eilrach Dayne said:

You are right there was a lot of time for Ned to rectify it, like Robb if he wasnt already married or if he even knew Ashara was pregnant at that time. Maybe Ned could have had sex with Ashara just prior to going for Brandons marriage with Catelyn (before Brandon got murdered with his father in KL), then Ned immediately had to call the banners and go to war, and because they needed the Tullys had to marry Catelyn, without knowing Asahra was pregnant. Or would this be impossible in the timeline? Im really having trouble pinpointing time, so sorry if it is a big miscalculation. 

The rebellion lasted for about a year, so if Ned hooked up with Ashara just before the hell broke loose, Jon would have been born a few months before the Sack.

Plus, there should have been enough time between HH and Lyanna's supposed abduction, for messages to be exchanged.

21 minutes ago, Eilrach Dayne said:

About young Griff/aegon, couldnt Ned trust in Jon connington and maybe Ashara if the other theory is to be believed to take care of the boy? Maybe he thought just, like with Daenerys, that they would be ok? 

I don't think Ned knew JonCon well enough, but even if he did trust them, it's hard to believe he wouldn't spend a single moment pondering how they were coping. - Of course, it would have to be subtle, e.g. Ned seeing some striving mother at Flea's Bottom and wondering how people with children were getting by in Essos overseas, and that many Westerosi fled to Essos after the Rebellion in fear for their lives and lives of their children... you know, just a line of thought which, in retrospect, would obtain a more particular meaning. But we have nothing of the kind.

[Orphalesion]

Okay now I'm completely confused (aside from people expecting everybody to humour them about their theoriies of Jon being anything else but the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, because some Youtube who relies on clickbait for the revenue said so I got that part)

Are people now speculating whether Young Griff is Ned and Ashara's kid?  If so, is Speta Lemore still supposed to be Ashara in this case? And why would everybody pretend that he's Aegon then? And where'd the silver hair come from?

[Eilrach Dayne]

42 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Okay now I'm completely confused (aside from people expecting everybody to humour them about their theoriies of Jon being anything else but the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, because some Youtube who relies on clickbait for the revenue said so I got that part)

Im sorry haha, I just thought it was a real possibility, i dont know if they are clickbate as you say but once I saw the 3 videos on N+A=J it looked like a real possibility for me, albeit some really weird side notes the theory seemed plausible. thanks thoug.

Are people now speculating whether Young Griff is Ned and Ashara's kid?  If so, is Speta Lemore still supposed to be Ashara in this case? And why would everybody pretend that he's Aegon then? And where'd the silver hair come from?

In the theory it was sayd that there was a baby swap similar to what Jon Snow does with Dalla and Gilly. Rhaegar+Lyanna = Aegon/young griff and Ned+Ashara= Jon Snow. Septa Lemure is supposed to be Ashara still. The silver hair comes from Rhaegar. In that theory Jon Connington would be right in believing Aegon/young griff was Rhaegars son, they would just be lying about which one, for legitimacy claims or something like that or simply becuase Tyrion thought he was Aegon and that is what they told him. It might be a little far fetched though and have less merit than R+L=J, still it sounded plausible at first. hopes this helps. Im sorry if I caused too much bother, I thought I was sharing good info.

 

[Eilrach Dayne]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

I don't think Ned knew JonCon well enough, but even if he did trust them, it's hard to believe he wouldn't spend a single moment pondering how they were coping. - Of course, it would have to be subtle, e.g. Ned seeing some striving mother at Flea's Bottom and wondering how people with children were getting by in Essos overseas, and that many Westerosi fled to Essos after the Rebellion in fear for their lives and lives of their children... you know, just a line of thought which, in retrospect, would obtain a more particular meaning. But we have nothing of the kind.

That makes a lot of sense. 

[Orphalesion]

1 minute ago, Eilrach Dayne said:

m sorry haha, I just thought it was a real possibility, i dont know if they are clickbate as you say but once I saw the 3 videos on N+A=J it looked like a real possibility for me, albeit some really weird side notes the theory seemed plausible. thanks thoug.

n the theory it was sayd that there was a baby swap similar to what Jon Snow does with Dalla and Gilly. Rhaegar+Lyanna = Aegon/young griff and Ned+Ashara= Jon Snow. Septa Lemure is supposed to be Ashara still. The silver hair comes from Rhaegar. In that theory Jon Connington would be right in believing Aegon/young griff was Rhaegars son, they would just be lying about which one, for legitimacy claims or something like that or simply becuase Tyrion thought he was Aegon and that is what they told him. It might be a little far fetched though and have less merit than R+L=J, still it sounded plausible at first. hopes this helps. Im sorry if I caused too much bother, I thought I was sharing good info.

No need to apologize, p[lease understand that I'm not annoyed or angry at you. I'm fairly annoyed at those youtubers, but that's a different topic.

You did nothing wrong and I hope you wikl continue to post on this forum and be a member of the community. It's just that the idea of alternate parents for Jon, Dany and/or Aegon has been thrown around so much, and the evidence for L + R = J is so solid (especially in light of recent events *hint* *hint*) that a some people just feel a mild annoyance towards further attempts. Particularly because there is a subset of people who just argue against Jon being Lyanna and Rhaegar's because they don't want to see it, either  because they don't like the recent evidence, or have some delusion that "a writer like GRRM wouldn't go for something that obvious" ignoring that it's only obvious because people have had like 20 years to figure it out.

With Aegon, Ashara and her possible baby and Lemore I, personally prefer the simplest solutions; Aegon is either Aegon or a Blackfyre pretender, Ashara is dead, the baby (if it survived) is Allyria Dayne and Septa Lemore is Septa Lemore.

Bottom line; we really, really, really, need Winds of Winter, a book which will hopefully, finally, spill the beans on this.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Eilrach Dayne said:

It bothers me so much that we dont know exactly how it went down, but I truly believe they had no chance against those 3 kingsguard, we have no hint as to the Neds companions being exceptional fighters. I would rank them as moderate or average, and even if two of the companions were a little above average how could they match up against those 3? I think arthur by himself had a chance against 6 of them at least, and witht he help of whent and hightower I just can imagine any other outcome then their victory. Some people suggested Howland uses magic, is there any proof or suggestion of this? I dont think there is, the only thing I could think of is is that greywater watch ability to move in the swamps, but this could be achieved with ingeneering ability, plus Im preatty sure Greywater watch was built way back before Howlands time. Still he might now some sort of crannogmen unconventional fighting style that could have helped, even so I dont see as him poosing any real threat to any of the 3 KG. 

We have no idea what exactly Howland did. It is not even clear whether Howland actually killed Dayne or whether he did not just save Ned's life - say, by tending his wounds or by preventing Dayne from killing Ned. All we know is that Ned would have died at the tower if Howland Reed hadn't been there.

Howland certainly might be able to use some magics but considering that he became the victim of some squire bullies at Harrenhal we can safely assume that this man usually cannot, in fact, hold his ground among properly armed noblemen. If he could he would not have needed the help of 14-year-old Lyanna Stark.

The whole poison arrow thing could also have come in handy. The crannogmen are notorious for this kind of cowardly warfare as Victarion's men learn between ASoS and ADwD. If they have poisons strong enough to kill instantly then Howland could have killed Ser Arthur this way.

Theo Wull might have been some sort of suicidal fighter and both Lord Willam Dustin as well as Ser Mark Ryswell should have been wealthy enough to be able to afford some proper armor and weaponry. Even if we ignored the fact that the men at the tower were Kingsguard who should have gotten both top notch armor and weaponry from the Crown Hightowers (and Whents up to a point) are among the wealthiest houses of Westeros, and Arthur Dayne was the Sword of the Morning, wielding the magical pseudo-Valyrian steel blade Dawn.

Even suicidal attacks have to pierce steel plate and the other armor the knights were wearing while Dawn should have made short work out of the armor the Northmen wore. Especially whatever Reed and Wull wore.

George could still establish Dustin, Ryswell, Wull, Cassel, and Glover (or some of them) as very experienced and capable warriors, though. After all, we essentially know nothing about them.

Only Ned himself and Howland Reed are clearly not exactly very good swordsmen. We know this for a fact for Ned and we also know that Howland most definitely never was properly trained at arms like a knight.

As to speculating about birth dates on the basis of SSMs:

That doesn't really work. If it turned out that the birthday of *Jon Snow the son of Eddard Stark* isn't the same day as the birthday of *X Targaryen the son of Prince Rhaegar* then whatever birthday George has tossed around for Jon might not, in fact, be correct. It may have been part of Ned's strategy to obscure Jon's true identity by making the boy younger than he actually was.

But the idea that the child was conceived at Harrenhal really doesn't make any sense.

[Orphalesion]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

The whole poison arrow thing could also have come in handy. The crannogmen are notorious for this kind of cowardly warfare as Victarion's men learn between ASoS and ADwD. If they have poisons strong enough to kill instantly then Howland could have killed Ser Arthur this way.

The poison arrows were always my interpretation as well. Also I wouldn't call this way of warfare "cowardly", I'd call using stealth against an opponent (particularly one larger than yourself) smart and resourceful.

[Eilrach Dayne]

13 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

No need to apologize, p[lease understand that I'm not annoyed or angry at you. I'm fairly annoyed at those youtubers, but that's a different topic.

You did nothing wrong and I hope you wikl continue to post on this forum and be a member of the community. It's just that the idea of alternate parents for Jon, Dany and/or Aegon has been thrown around so much, and the evidence for L + R = J is so solid (especially in light of recent events *hint* *hint*) that a some people just feel a mild annoyance towards further attempts. Particularly because there is a subset of people who just argue against Jon being Lyanna and Rhaegar's because they don't want to see it, either  because they don't like the recent evidence, or have some delusion that "a writer like GRRM wouldn't go for something that obvious" ignoring that it's only obvious because people have had like 20 years to figure it out.

With Aegon, Ashara and her possible baby and Lemore I, personally prefer the simplest solutions; Aegon is either Aegon or a Blackfyre pretender, Ashara is dead, the baby (if it survived) is Allyria Dayne and Septa Lemore is Septa Lemore.

Bottom line; we really, really, really, need Winds of Winter, a book which will hopefully, finally, spill the beans on this.

I agree we need Winds of Winter, thanks! R+L=J is very solid indeed, I just did not think the tv series could really confirm it before the book in order for them to be true and since the series deviated a lot from the books maybe it was not confirmation. Im really starting to resent the series quite a bit, I enjoy watching it as something extra but I hate that they might have changed too much. For instance will Barristan Selmy die in the books because he died in the eseries? was his death already thought of by martin? will he end up dying but a different way, and stuff like that just. Some characters i love didnt even show up on the series and I was coming to the conclusion the series would end up being something different, I just consider it as a parallel universe now, so I disregarded confirmation on R+J=J but maybe it is in fact confirmation, who knows.

[Eilrach Dayne]

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

As to speculating about birth dates on the basis of SSMs:

That doesn't really work. If it turned out that the birthday of *Jon Snow the son of Eddard Stark* isn't the same day as the birthday of *X Targaryen the son of Prince Rhaegar* then whatever birthday George has tossed around for Jon might not, in fact, be correct. It may have been part of Ned's strategy to obscure Jon's true identity by making the boy younger than he actually was.

But the idea that the child was conceived at Harrenhal really doesn't make any sense.

Thanks! 

There are so many things to consider about the battle at TOJ that it is hard to really predict how Ned and his companions beat the 3 KG but with everything we talked about now, I guess it could be true. Its just hard to accept, hopefully we get an explanation soon.