promise me

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Traverys said:

In conclusion, Ned must have run into Robert between Starfall and his trip to Winterfell.

Not necessarily. They met during Balon's rebellion, and didn't Ned attend Robert's wedding, as well? We don't know when Robert learned that his oh-so-honourable friend Ned had slipped.

[Prof. Cecily]

53 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Not necessarily. They met during Balon's rebellion, and didn't Ned attend Robert's wedding, as well? We don't know when Robert learned that his oh-so-honourable friend Ned had slipped.

Quote

 

The king frowned. "A knife, perhaps. A good sharp one, and a bold man to wield it."

Ned did not feign surprise; Robert's hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar's wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, "I see no babes. Only dragonspawn." Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna's death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.

A Game of Thrones - Eddard II

My bolding. I've read this to mean a meeting between the two in the aftermath of the war.

Balon's rebellion was nine year's later, it didn't occur to me they'd have waited til then to share their grief over Lyanna.

I can't find any references to Ned (and Cat, surely) being at Robert's wedding to Cersei in 284.

 

I did find this little gem, though, for Lady Olenna fans.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Cersei III

...When it was time for the changing of the cloaks, the bride sank gracefully to her knees and Tommen covered her with the heavy cloth-of-gold monstrosity that Robert had cloaked Cersei in on their own wedding day, with the crowned stag of Baratheon worked upon its back in beads of onyx. Cersei had wanted to use the fine red silk cloak Joffrey had used. "It was the cloak my lord father used when he wed my lady mother," she explained to the Tyrells, but the Queen of Thorns had balked her in that as well. "That old thing?" the crone had said. "It looks a bit threadbare to me . . . and dare I say, unlucky? And wouldn't a stag be more fitting for King Robert's trueborn son? In my day a bride donned her husband's colors, not his lady mother's."

 

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Prof. Cecily said:

My bolding. I've read this to mean a meeting between the two in the aftermath of the war.

Balon's rebellion was nine year's later, it didn't occur to me they'd have waited til then to share their grief over Lyanna.

Oh, I sure do agree that they shared their grief over Lyanna quite soon afterwards. What we don't know is when exactly Robert learned about Jon. 

[SFDanny]

12 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Indeed. Because this is, once again, the theme of duty versus love: by the codes of honour, the duty and loyalty to the liege (Robert) should come before love and family (Lyanna), and here the matter was even more complicated, due to Ned's friendship with Robert and perhaps also by the murders of Rickard and Brandon, for which Lyanna may have felt responsible.

Quote

"Tell me, Jon, if the day should ever come when your lord father must needs choose between honor on the one hand and those he loves on the other, what would he do? (AGoT 552)

Maester Aemon puts it a little differently with "honor" substituting for "duty," but, yes, this theme is replayed over and over again in the books. As, we have talked about in the past, I agree with you and have no doubt that Ned's promise to Lyanna is a pivotal choice between love and honor, and, contrary to what Jon thinks Ned would do, he chooses love for his sister over his honor bound duty to Robert. This is not a deathbed debate over where Lyanna wants to be buried.

The only thing I would add to your post is it looks to me if Rickard and Brandon chose the honor of House Stark's pledged word in the betrothal of Lyanna to Robert over Lyanna's own wishes. It also appears to me that Ned does the same until he finds Lyanna on her deathbed pleading for her child's life. As we discussed before, this is, I believe, when Ned becomes the Ned we know.

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Maester Aemon puts it a little differently with "honor" substituting for "duty," but, yes, this theme is replayed over and over again in the books. As, we have talked about in the past, I agree with you and have no doubt that Ned's promise to Lyanna is a pivotal choice between love and honor, and, contrary to what Jon thinks Ned would do, he chooses love for his sister over his honor bound duty to Robert. This is not a deathbed debate over where Lyanna wants to be buried.

The only thing I would add to your post is it looks to me if Rickard and Brandon chose the honor of House Stark's pledged word in the betrothal of Lyanna to Robert over Lyanna's own wishes. It also appears to me that Ned does the same until he finds Lyanna on her deathbed pleading for her child's life. As we discussed before, this is, I believe, when Ned becomes the Ned we know.

A Game of Thrones - Jon VIII 

The old man seemed to sense his doubts. "Tell me, Jon, if the day should ever come when your lord father must needs choose between honor on the one hand and those he loves on the other, what would he do?" 

Jon hesitated. He wanted to say that Lord Eddard would never dishonor himself, not even for love, yet inside a small sly voice whispered, He fathered a bastard, where was the honor in that? And your mother, what of his duty to her, he will not even say her name. "He would do whatever was right," he said … ringingly, to make up for his hesitation. "No matter what."

Jon says Ned would do "whatever was right, no matter what". And I think he was spot on even if he didn't fully realise it back then, it was "what was right". And Jon makes the exact same decision when he is faced with his own love x duty dilemma. 

 

 

 

[SFDanny]

6 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Not necessarily. They met during Balon's rebellion, and didn't Ned attend Robert's wedding, as well? We don't know when Robert learned that his oh-so-honourable friend Ned had slipped.

There is a lot of Ned's return to Winterfell we don't know about, but we can make some fairly educated guesses about some of it. For instance, can anyone believe that Robert weds Cersei before he hears of Lyanna's death? Robert is obsessed with Lyanna and the idea that Jon Arryn could convince him to set aside his betrothal to her while both Lyanna's and Ned's fate is unknown seems extremely unlikely.

Now, Ned may have chosen to send the news of Lyanna's death by raven, but I would think it much more likely he travels to King's Landing to deliver the news in person, with, perhaps, only a stop at Storm's End to gather his northern troops - assuming they stayed there - for the long journey home. That puts it likely Ned and Robert are "reunited in their grief" before the wedding to Cersei in 284. I haven't a clue whether Ned stays in King's Landing for the wedding, but I would think not.

Where Jon is all this time, is subject of much debate. I will only say that the rumors of Ned and Ashara being Jon's parents would point to the Northern troops seeing Jon from Ned's return from Starfall. Another point in favor of Ned going to Storm's End before he travels on to King's Landing.

Lastly, I would think the last place Ned would want to take Jon is King's Landing. He fights with Catelyn when she tells him fourteen years later he needs to take Jon with him, and I can only think he would be more reluctant to have the court see the babe and wonder about the mother. How does one square that circle? I think Ned likely sends Jon ahead before he gets to King's Landing. That could be with Howland, and/or someone else, but Howland makes the most sense. Ned would want the fewest people who know the details of his journey available in King's Landing for questioning. That argues against Wylla going north with Ned to Winterfell. The wet nurse Catelyn finds is almost certainly someone else.

[SFDanny]

28 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

A Game of Thrones - Jon VIII 

The old man seemed to sense his doubts. "Tell me, Jon, if the day should ever come when your lord father must needs choose between honor on the one hand and those he loves on the other, what would he do?" 

Jon hesitated. He wanted to say that Lord Eddard would never dishonor himself, not even for love, yet inside a small sly voice whispered, He fathered a bastard, where was the honor in that? And your mother, what of his duty to her, he will not even say her name. "He would do whatever was right," he said … ringingly, to make up for his hesitation. "No matter what."

Jon says Ned would do "whatever was right, no matter what". And I think he was spot on even if he didn't fully realise it back then, it was "what was right". And Jon makes the exact same decision when he is faced with his own love x duty dilemma. 

I agree Jon's words are "spot on" concerning what Ned did in his promise to Lyanna. He did what was right. In this case, contrary to what Jon is thinking, what is right is not what honor or duty would have him do. What is right is what Ned's love for his sister tells him to do.

I would only add, I believe, to understand Ned one has to start with what he tells Cersei in the Godswood of the Red Keep.

Quote

"Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"

"For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children." (AGoT 407) bold emphasis added

The protection of innocents is Ned's touchstone to what is right, not a formal oath. In that, he is much like Ser Duncan the Tall at Ashford.

[kissdbyfire]

35 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

I agree Jon's words are "spot on" concerning what Ned did in his promise to Lyanna. He did what was right. In this case, contrary to what Jon is thinking, what is right is not what honor or duty would have him do. What is right is what Ned's love for his sister tells him to do.

I would only add, I believe, to understand Ned one has to start with what he tells Cersei in the Godswood of the Red Keep.

The protection of innocents is Ned's touchstone to what is right, not a formal oath. In that, he is much like Ser Duncan the Tall at Ashford.

Couldn't possibly agree any more. Bit OT but I love the passage where Jon reads the PL, and how we see him making the same choice his uncle made all those years ago. And imo it's a lovely touch to have it all start with Tormund saying,

"Snow?" said Tormund Giantsbane. "You look like your father's bloody head just rolled out o' that paper."

And then...

Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night’s Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon’s breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird’s nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …

“I think we had best change the plan,” Jon Snow said.”

[SFDanny]

50 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Couldn't possibly agree any more. Bit OT but I love the passage where Jon reads the PL, and how we see him making the same choice his uncle made all those years ago. And imo it's a lovely touch to have it all start with Tormund saying,

"Snow?" said Tormund Giantsbane. "You look like your father's bloody head just rolled out o' that paper."

And then...

Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night’s Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon’s breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird’s nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …

“I think we had best change the plan,” Jon Snow said.”

Yes, oh yes.

God, I need the next book.

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, SFDanny said:

Yes, oh yes.

God, I need the next book.

Hear, hear! We'll get it, hopefully sooner rather than later.

 

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I will only say that the rumors of Ned and Ashara being Jon's parents would point to the Northern troops seeing Jon from Ned's return from Starfall.

Yeah, but is this really what the troops say?

They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur’s sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.
That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. “Never ask me about Jon,” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady.” She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne’s name was never heard in Winterfell again.

The whispers don't include Jon, there is no mention of Ned going to Starfall with Dawn and returning with a baby, which I believe would definitely be a huge point worth mentioning. And when asked about the supposed romance, Harwin doesn't refer to the Starfall trip at all, all he speaks about is HH. And another rumour, which Sansa hears, names Jon's mother as commonborn. IMHO, if Ned's troops saw him return with a baby from Starfall, the N+A would have a much stronger backing at Winterfell, regardless of Ned's commands, which, IMHO, points to the troops not seeing Ned with Jon at the time where he could be related to Starfall.

 

[Wolfgirly]

11 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Rhaegar was accompanied by two KG when he carried off Lyanna. Yet somehow I don't imagine those four people travelling with a wagon loaded down with goods.

Do you have any idea what a high harp weighs?

If Rhaegar took a harp, my bet would it was a lap harp.

 

I'm assuming Rhaegar just had the one harp. Some said that was silver and crafted in dragon images. It's said he used to play in the streets and taverns, aso he must've carried it around with him. This feels like it was a small medieval sort of harp that was light weight. In that case he would've taken it with him to the Tower of Joy.

LOL I don't believe he and his KG carried stuff in a wagon. I do think they might've camped out in a wood on the way to the ToJ to avoid inns so as to keep hidden. 

[SFDanny]

4 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Yeah, but is this really what the troops say?

They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur’s sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.
That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. “Never ask me about Jon,” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady.” She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne’s name was never heard in Winterfell again.

The whispers don't include Jon, there is no mention of Ned going to Starfall with Dawn and returning with a baby, which I believe would definitely be a huge point worth mentioning. And when asked about the supposed romance, Harwin doesn't refer to the Starfall trip at all, all he speaks about is HH. And another rumour, which Sansa hears, names Jon's mother as commonborn. IMHO, if Ned's troops saw him return with a baby from Starfall, the N+A would have a much stronger backing at Winterfell, regardless of Ned's commands, which, IMHO, points to the troops not seeing Ned with Jon at the time where he could be related to Starfall.

 

Clearly, it is what Catelyn gets from the rumors she hears in Winterfell from the returning soldiers. She asks Ned about Ashara being Jon's mother, and Ned tells her to never ask him again about Jon. He further wants to know who told Catelyn Lady Ashara's name. While Starfall isn't named, Ned's trip to Starfall is mention in the returning of Dawn. How then do the troops draw this conclusion? I think the only explanation is that Ned shows up with Jon after his trip to Starfall. Ned isn't going to explain to his troops or their commanders who this child's mother is, but he claims the babe is his natural son. The troops draw the conclusion based on what they know. That Ned showed an interest in Ashara at Harrenhal just strengthens the idea in their minds that Ashara is Jon's mother. Ned tells no one, except Robert, any different.

That doesn't mean others haven't tried to find out the truth. For instance, when Cersei taunts Ned in the Godswood, she says the following:

Quote

"You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole?"

We don't know who told Cersei her information, but clearly it points to Jon coming from Dorne, and appearing after Ned left Starfall. Her barb about "the child you stole" points directly to Jon possibly being Ashara's child, And it pinpoints his appearance to Ned's time in Dorne. My guess is that Cersei hears her tales about Jon from reports to the small council after Ned leaves and goes North. It's possible that it comes from Tywin but someone is looking into Jon's origins.

The interesting thing here, I think, is that Cersei also speaks of a "Dornish peasant" as a possibility of being Jon's mother. This maybe a reference to Wylla and her claim that she is Jon's mother. Anyway, both rumors reinforce the other. I don't see any other real possibility for when Jon is first known outside of Dorne.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Wolfgirly said:

I'm assuming Rhaegar just had the one harp. Some said that was silver and crafted in dragon images. It's said he used to play in the streets and taverns, aso he must've carried it around with him. This feels like it was a small medieval sort of harp that was light weight. In that case he would've taken it with him to the Tower of Joy.

LOL I don't believe he and his KG carried stuff in a wagon. I do think they might've camped out in a wood on the way to the ToJ to avoid inns so as to keep hidden. 

No, just NO. Rhaegar playing harp for the commoners around KL and then going to the pub to drink the money he made playing is a show invention, and one of the most irking imo. 

[Prof. Cecily]

8 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Oh, I sure do agree that they shared their grief over Lyanna quite soon afterwards. What we don't know is when exactly Robert learned about Jon. 

It's the purest speculation, obviously, but I suspect Cersei told him.

And she learned it, of course, from her hairdresser.

Hairdressers know EVERYTHING about everybody.

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

...Now, Ned may have chosen to send the news of Lyanna's death by raven, but I would think it much more likely he travels to King's Landing to deliver the news in person, with, perhaps, only a stop at Storm's End to gather his northern troops - assuming they stayed there - for the long journey home...

IIRC, the troops would be at KL. After the battle of the trident, Robert ordered Ned to take KL and Ned rode like the wind with the troops, trying to get there before Tywin could enter the city.

Please correct me if I'm wrong!

3 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Yes, oh yes.

God, I need the next book.

Yes. Now.

2 hours ago, Wolfgirly said:

I'm assuming Rhaegar just had the one harp. Some said that was silver and crafted in dragon images. It's said he used to play in the streets and taverns, aso he must've carried it around with him. This feels like it was a small medieval sort of harp that was light weight. In that case he would've taken it with him to the Tower of Joy.

LOL I don't believe he and his KG carried stuff in a wagon. I do think they might've camped out in a wood on the way to the ToJ to avoid inns so as to keep hidden. 

A harp made of silver? Not likely. Harps are made of wood. They need to vibrate.

Where is that idea from?

I mentioned the wagon to underline the difficulties of transported a high harp. They weigh in at 20 kilos.

I'm sure you're right about camping in the woods!

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

... For instance, when Cersei taunts Ned in the Godswood, she says the following:

We don't know who told Cersei her information, but clearly it points to Jon coming from Dorne, and appearing after Ned left Starfall. Her barb about "the child you stole" points directly to Jon possibly being Ashara's child, And it pinpoints his appearance to Ned's time in Dorne. My guess is that Cersei hears her tales about Jon from reports to the small council after Ned leaves and goes North. It's possible that it comes from Tywin but someone is looking into Jon's origins.

The interesting thing here, I think, is that Cersei also speaks of a "Dornish peasant" as a possibility of being Jon's mother. This maybe a reference to Wylla and her claim that she is Jon's mother. Anyway, both rumors reinforce the other. I don't see any other real possibility for when Jon is first known outside of Dorne.

For the spiteful pettiness of the jibes, I daresay the woman had listened to gossip gleaned from hairdressers and dressers.

[Catelyn Cerwyn]

On 5/29/2017 at 6:37 AM, Traverys said:

Another question that springs to my mind now would be "are we sure that the high harp is what we think it is?" I always assumed it meant the large harps but not because of the name; I took "high" to imply sophistication or prestige rather than an indicator of height. However, a larger harp would have more room for strings and thus more notes to work with. That would make it more complex of an instrument and thus "sophisticated." But, it remains that we could be making an assumption about what a high harp actually is in the context of the story. 

I'm not very knowledgeable about instruments in general, but I've been pretty involved in the fantasy genre for a long time. A large harp stationed in a throne room is a fairly common element/trope of fantasy... usually with an elegant woman or lady playing it. The smaller, portable harps are associated with bards (all variations; magic, fighters, magic fighters, or merely musicians), which I think is the archetype Rhaegar has always triggered in my mind. He of course made a successful effort in shifting from an intellectual into a warrior, but it's fairly clear he preferred the harp over the sword.  

Sometime composer for voices (and occasionally harp!) here. First off: the ‘high’ designation of ‘high harp’ does not appear to be a signifier of prestige – it is a musical signifier, that the instrument is a small one that cannot play low-pitched bass notes. The physics of Planetos seem to be similar enough that low-pitched notes require longer strings, which increases the size of the instrument accordingly; a high harp is a smaller, treble instrument without access to a bass range, and we have Dany’s vision in the house of the undying that Rhaegar could sit and pick up the instrument to play it on his lap. In other words, the ‘lap harp’ and the ‘high harp’ are one and the same thing – one is a designation of how the instrument can be played (seated, the instrument resting on the lap), the other is a designation of its musical range. And as a practical concern (I’ve had to help harpists move orchestral harps around for concerts – enough said!) a lap harp/high harp is way more portable.

(As for why the orchestral harp is so big – yes, it adds sophistication/prestige/complexity by having a full bass to treble range, and being capable of being retuned by the harpist (using the seven pedals) in the course of playing it, without having to stop and manually change the tuning. Each of the pedals on the orchestral harp change either six or seven strings at a time affecting the same pitch in every octave, and have three different tunings. Smaller harps (like your typical Celtic harps, also called lever harps) can be retuned with tuning pegs or levers/switches, but with these instruments you have to prepare the tuning you want before playing; it is less easy to alter in the middle of a song, but not hard for skilled players.)

On 5/29/2017 at 7:18 AM, kissdbyfire said:

But then it would have to be the high harp ser Barry describes, and we're back at how did Ned bring the thing all the way from Dorne to Winterfell with no one noticing it. To me this is a huge issue w/ the idea.

[...]

I think it's a pretty big freaking harp. That said, I'm not at all knowledgeable in musical instruments. But in depictions I've seen of Rhaegar w/ the silver stringed harp, it's always a big proper harp. 

If it’s a lap harp, then it is not difficult to transport. As for depictions of Rhaegar and a large harp – perhaps the artists concerned are not musicians and misinterpreted the idea of ‘high harp’ like Traverys did, of ‘high’ meaning sophistication/prestige/complexity? In any case, the one physical description of the instrument that we receive from GRRM is one that can be easily picked up by hand.

On 5/29/2017 at 10:12 AM, Traverys said:

I see your point a little bit. The biggest problem I have with saying that it would have been cumbersome is that Rhaegar apparently picked it up to play it. So, either he has more than one harp with silver strings, or the high harp doesn't refer to a huge harp like we (including me) have assumed. Unfortunately, going back to the text, the wording does not clear up the answer for us.

Here are all the instances of Rhaegar and his silver-stringed harp being mentioned/observed/recalled from ACoK to ADwD, in order:

"“There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings." ACoK, (p.527; Daenerys)

"Dany could not let it go. “His is the song of ice and fire, my brother said. I’m certain it was my brother. Not Viserys, Rhaegar. He had a harp with silver strings.” Ser Jorah’s frown deepened until his eyebrows came together. “Prince Rhaegar played such a harp,” he conceded." ACoK, (p. 660; Daenerys)

"It was said that no man ever knew Prince Rhaegar, truly. I had the privilege of seeing him in tourney, though, and often heard him play his harp with its silver strings.” ASoS (p. 110; Daenerys)

"Yes. And yet Summerhall was the place the prince loved best. He would go there from time to time, with only his harp for company. Even the knights of the Kingsguard did not attend him there. He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and stars, and whenever he came back he would bring a song. When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved.” ASoS (p. 587; Daenerys)

"Many a night she had watched Prince Rhaegar in the hall, playing his silver-stringed harp with those long, elegant fingers of his." AFfC, (p. 404; Cersei)

"By night the prince played his silver harp and made her weep. When she had been presented to him, Cersei had almost drowned in the depths of his sad purple eyes." AFfC, (p. 405; Cersei)

"At the welcoming feast, the prince had taken up his silver-stringed harp and played for them. A song of love and doom, Jon Connington recalled, and every woman in the hall was weeping when he put down the harp." ADwD (p. 803; Jon Connington)

 

You're welcome, thread. Someone let me know if I missed one but I used a kindle search for "harp." It's not a commonly used word, surprisingly.

The point is, the use of the words harp and high harp are irregular. In the two quotes that indicate that Rhaegar played a lap harp with silver-strings, it is not referred to as a high harp. This may or may not be significant because even outside of these two instances his harp is not always referred to as a high harp. Some are gonna say they are all the same, portable harp. Others will say there are two different harps with silver strings, one big and one small. The less-than-clever will say there is even a third made purely of silver (thanks, Cersei... ).

I'm inclined to believe they are all the same harp just because (1) we have no reason to believe there is more than one harp, and (2) there is no evidence that a high harp is different than a regular harp, especially when it comes to size. Like i said in an earlier post, up until today I assumed the high harp was the big, station harps you sit beside in order to play. In Westeros, perhaps "high harp" is just a fancy word for a normal harp, like saying pianoforte instead of piano.

Thanks for going to the trouble of sourcing all of these quotes. As a composer and a musician, though, I am going to suggest that all of these quotes about Rhaegar’s harp indicate he only used the one instrument, and it was therefore a portable, treble-pitched instrument with silver strings – not a large floor-mounted harp. It would be therefore of a size where he could take it with him to Summerhall unaccompanied, as well as taking it along to play at tourneys. Almost all of the memories of those who remember Rhaegar playing recall the silver strings of the instrument, and the one from Jon Connington is particularly useful for the descriptions of him taking up and putting down the instrument. That is not something you typically do with larger harps!

Rhaegar is not the only skilled player of the high harp in the world of ice and fire. I will add to your harp lore with some quotes from The Hedge Knight, starting early on when Dunk arrives at Ashford Meadow and sees all of the pavilions erected:

Quote

“The nightingales belonged to Lord Caron of the Marches, as skilled with the high harp as he was with a lance.”

Ser Pearse Caron is another of these musical knights of the seven kingdoms, and the choice of the same instrument is very likely owing to its portability. When we get to the tourney, the heralds announce him so:

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“A fanfare of trumpets announced that three new challengers had entered the lists. The heralds shouted their names. “Ser Pearse of House Caron, Lord of the Marches.” He had a silver harp emblazoned on his shield, though his surcoat was patterned with nightingales. [...] Lord Caron, harper and singer and knight of renown, touched the point of his lance to Lord Tyrell’s rose.”

Soon after the initial joust “the harp lord and the rose lord were going at each other lustily with blunted longaxes, to the delight of the roaring crowd”. Then:

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“Get him!” Egg shouted merrily, shifting his seat on Dunk’s back in his excitement. “Get him! Hit him! Yes! He’s right there, he’s right there!” It seemed to be Lord Caron he was cheering on. The harper was playing a different sort of music now, driving Lord Leo back and back as steel sang on steel. The crowd seemed almost equally divided between them, so cheers and curses mingled freely in the morning air. Chips of wood and paint were flying from Lord Leo’s shield as Lord Pearse’s axe knocked the petals off his golden rose, one by one, until the shield finally shattered and split. But as it did, the axehead hung up for an instant in the wood ... and Lord Leo’s own axe crashed down on the haft of his foe’s weapon, breaking it off not a foot from his hand. He cast aside his broken shield, and suddenly he was the one on the attack. Within moments, the harper knight was on one knee, singing his surrender.

There are brief references to harps and harpists in the other Dunk and Egg novellas (a singer warbling “The Day They Hanged Black Robin” in The Sworn Sword; a couple of Frey daughters playing “Two Hearts That Beat As One” on high harp, badly, in The Mystery Knight).

[kissdbyfire]

 @Catelyn Cerwyn, that was most informative! 

 

 

[SFDanny]

16 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

It's the purest speculation, obviously, but I suspect Cersei told him.

And she learned it, of course, from her hairdresser.

Hairdressers know EVERYTHING about everybody.

IIRC, the troops would be at KL. After the battle of the trident, Robert ordered Ned to take KL and Ned rode like the wind with the troops, trying to get there before Tywin could enter the city.

Please correct me if I'm wrong!

For the spiteful pettiness of the jibes, I daresay the woman had listened to gossip gleaned from hairdressers and dressers.

There is a quote of Catelyn's which talks of being before Storm's End where she thinks Ned and his troops could have stayed when they came to relieve the siege. I have to run so I'll look for it when I get back, but there is no doubt Ned took his troops with him when he rode south from King's Landing. There is also a quote of Martin saying his troops didn't go south with him to Dorne. I'll post that too later.

The only real question is do his troops stay at Storm's End while he goes to the Tower of Joy and on to Starfall. They could have been commanded to return to King's Landing or someplace else without Ned.

I must say I hadn't really studied the hairdressers as a source of information. Now, I'll have to do a reread.

[Traverys]

11 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Not necessarily. They met during Balon's rebellion, and didn't Ned attend Robert's wedding, as well? We don't know when Robert learned that his oh-so-honourable friend Ned had slipped.

I concede that maybe Jon is not brought into the picture until later, but that would also mean that Ned still played decoy while Wylla and Jon headed north.

There's really no reason to think that Ned didn't see Robert after the Tower of Joy, but let's start at the beginning of the chain of logic: Robert heads a rebellion over his perception that his betrothed was "stolen" from him, becomes king of the realm upon his victory, sends Ned to lift the siege of Storm's End and to retrieve his sister, and Ned doesn't report back to his king in person to report the death of his sister? It's not like King's Landing is out of the way heading north. There's plenty of textual precedent to believe that Ned would now need Robert's (aka Jon Arryn's) permission to officially return to Winterfell. The war isn't over until your liege says its over. We see this with not only Robb and the north, but also when Edmure (foolishly) dismisses the Riverlands lords to go back and defend their own holdfasts.

What becomes interesting here is what exactly Ned told Robert regarding his sister's death... like, how exactly she died while under the protection of the Kingsguard.

34 minutes ago, Catelyn Cerwyn said:

Thanks for going to the trouble of sourcing all of these quotes. As a composer and a musician, though, I am going to suggest that all of these quotes about Rhaegar’s harp indicate he only used the one instrument, and it was therefore a portable, treble-pitched instrument with silver strings – not a large floor-mounted harp. It would be therefore of a size where he could take it with him to Summerhall unaccompanied, as well as taking it along to play at tourneys. Almost all of the memories of those who remember Rhaegar playing recall the silver strings of the instrument, and the one from Jon Connington is particularly useful for the descriptions of him taking up and putting down the instrument. That is not something you typically do with larger harps!

No problem, it was interesting stuff. Yeah, I'm inclined to believe it was a single, portable harp as well. Daenerys' vision also depicts him picking up the harp in order to play it.

BUT, for laughs, I do enjoy imagining all the dramatic Rhaegar moments where he plays lovely music preceded by him personally dragging an enormous harp across the floor. If only I was an artist... it would make a good comic strip.

34 minutes ago, Catelyn Cerwyn said:

Rhaegar is not the only skilled player of the high harp in the world of ice and fire. I will add to your harp lore with some quotes from The Hedge Knight, starting early on when Dunk arrives at Ashford Meadow and sees all of the pavilions erected:

Thanks for the additional quotes! I don't have the Dunk and Egg books on kindle so can't do an easy search for them.

[Catelyn Cerwyn]

@kissdbyfire No problems! I just rediscovered an old photo of me singing in a performance of Britten’s Ceremony of Carols – the one photo which has both me and the harp in picture, and my face is entirely obscured by the top of the harp! (I would upload it, but I don’t think I have posted enough times to be able to insert photos?)