Sandor and Tyrion

[snow is the man]

I don't know why they would like eachother. Sandor hates knights and I think that deep down he hates nobles for pretending to be superior but doing horrible things. I don't think they hate eachother but they don't like eachother either. When sandor talks about torturing tyrion it is because he thought tyrion hurt sansa and remember he may see what tyrion at the blackwater as shaming him.

[The Bard of Banefort]

17 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

I don't know why they would like eachother. Sandor hates knights and I think that deep down he hates nobles for pretending to be superior but doing horrible things. I don't think they hate eachother but they don't like eachother either. When sandor talks about torturing tyrion it is because he thought tyrion hurt sansa and remember he may see what tyrion at the blackwater as shaming him.

That's a great point. He doesn't seem to like Ned much either, even though the two hardly ever interacted. 

[zandru]

17 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

He doesn't seem to like Ned much either, even though the two hardly ever interacted. 

I disagree there. Sandor expressed great remorse about just standing there in his white cloak, doing nothing, while Ned's head was cut off. He told Arya that he wanted to serve her brother, because he'd heard Robb was like Ned. I imagine (no textual citation; just me - sorry!) that Lord Eddard Stark could have been the best lord Sandor had yet seen, and he'd been at Winterfell for fortnights observing, when Good King Robert made his trip north. Eddard surely would have compared favorably to Robert, and most definitely to Tywin and his poisonous, backstabbing brood.

Moreover, Ned showed that he cared deeply about his children, which is something Sandor apparently never had.

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 minute ago, zandru said:

I disagree there. Sandor expressed great remorse about just standing there in his white cloak, doing nothing, while Ned's head was cut off. He told Arya that he wanted to serve her brother, because he'd heard Robb was like Ned. I imagine (no textual citation; just me - sorry!) that Lord Eddard Stark could have been the best lord Sandor had yet seen, and he'd been at Winterfell for fortnights observing, when Good King Robert made his trip north. Eddard surely would have compared favorably to Robert, and most definitely to Tywin and his poisonous, backstabbing brood.

You may be right. I was thinking about him mocking Ned's death to Sansa during ACOK, but I guess that could just be the usual defense mechanism/goading that he does when he's drunk and angry.

[zandru]

1 minute ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

usual defense mechanism/goading that he does when he's drunk and angry.

I think you're right. And I think he had similar motivations when he kept referring to Sansa as "the pretty one", because he knew it annoyed Arya. (The man wasn't blind; he could tell that Arya was developing into a real beauty, so it was necessary to keep her hair messy and badly cut, and have no problem with her boy's clothing.)

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

17 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

You may be right. I was thinking about him mocking Ned's death to Sansa during ACOK, but I guess that could just be the usual defense mechanism/goading that he does when he's drunk and angry.

He wasn't drinking.  He was completely sober.  He was very, very on edge though contemplating his death by fire in the coming battle.  

[Clegane'sPup]

38 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

You may be right. I was thinking about him mocking Ned's death to Sansa during ACOK, but I guess that could just be the usual defense mechanism/goading that he does when he's drunk and angry.

Damn, my memory slips again. Wanna remind me please.

36 minutes ago, zandru said:

I think you're right. And I think he had similar motivations when he kept referring to Sansa as "the pretty one",

The pretty one?

Darlings you gonna havta do better dan dat.

Are ye having fun? Ye dunna wanna end up being tied to da prow of Euron's ship now do ya.

[The Bard of Banefort]

27 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Damn, my memory slips again. Wanna remind me please.

 

It was in Sansa IV. I thought he was drunk in this scene, but Blue-Eyed Wolf says that he wasn't. Either way, it can still be interpreted as a defense mechanism.

Quote

 

"Is that what he told you?" Clegane laughed again. "Your father lied. Killing is the sweetest thing there is." He drew his longsword. "Here's your truth. Your precious father found that out on Baelor's steps. Lord of Winterfell, Hand of the King, Warden of the North, the mighty Eddard Stark, of a line eight thousand years old . . . but Ilyn Payne's blade went through his neck all the same, didn't it? Do you remember the dance he did when his head came off his shoulders?"

 

Sansa hugged herself, suddenly cold. "Why are you always so hateful? I was thanking you . . ."

 

"Just as if I was one of those true knights you love so well, yes. What do you think a knight is for, girl? You think it's all taking favors from ladies and looking fine in gold plate? Knights are for killing." He laid the edge of his longsword against her neck, just under her ear. Sansa could feel the sharpness of the steel. "I killed my first man at twelve. I've lost count of how many I've killed since then. High lords with old names, fat rich men dressed in velvet, knights puffed up like bladders with their honors, yes, and women and children too—they're all meat, and I'm the butcher. Let them have their lands and their gods and their gold. Let them have their sers." Sandor Clegane spat at her feet to show what he thought of that. "So long as I have this," he said, lifting the sword from her throat, "there's no man on earth I need fear."

 

 

1 hour ago, zandru said:

I think you're right. And I think he had similar motivations when he kept referring to Sansa as "the pretty one", because he knew it annoyed Arya. (The man wasn't blind; he could tell that Arya was developing into a real beauty, so it was necessary to keep her hair messy and badly cut, and have no problem with her boy's clothing.)

The funny thing is, Arya didn't pick up on the fact that the Hound was rather fixated on Sansa. I'm pretty sure he mentioned Sansa in every chapter that they were together for in ASOS, but it went right over Arya's head.

[zandru]

39 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The funny thing is, Arya didn't pick up on the fact that the Hound was rather fixated on Sansa. I'm pretty sure he mentioned Sansa in every chapter that they were together for in ASOS, but it went right over Arya's head.

Well, was he really? Sandor mentioned Sansa, but he also mentioned Eddard and he mentioned Micah. What do these three things have in common? They are all people and events that Sandor and Arya had in common. Note that once Sandor mentioned saving Sansa during the riot in King's Landing, something Arya had not experienced, and she refused to believe it. He never brought it up again. Just those three people/events where they each had a connection.

Poor Arya. Her usually excellent powers of observation failed her there because she was all spun up in hatred.

[The Bard of Banefort]

21 minutes ago, zandru said:

Well, was he really? Sandor mentioned Sansa, but he also mentioned Eddard and he mentioned Micah. What do these three things have in common? They are all people and events that Sandor and Arya had in common. Note that once Sandor mentioned saving Sansa during the riot in King's Landing, something Arya had not experienced, and she refused to believe it. He never brought it up again. Just those three people/events where they each had a connection.

Poor Arya. Her usually excellent powers of observation failed her there because she was all spun up in hatred.

Well, he mentions Sansa singing for him a few times (George just really loves writing about singing, I guess). And he talks about her getting beaten too.

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"I thought your sister was the one with a head full of songs," the Hound growled.

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"You'd be dead if I had. You ought to thank me. You ought to sing me a pretty little song, the way your sister did."

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"I never beat your sister," the Hound said. "But I'll beat you if you make me. Stop trying to think up ways to kill me. None of it will do you a bit of good."

(On a side note, I'm only just now starting to realize how helpful A Search of Ice and Fire is! haha)

But yes, Arya normally has excellent observation skills. A lot of people disagree with me on this, but I think her and Cat are actually very similar in how they process emotions. They feel in extreme ways, and it's messes with their ability to focus on anything else.

[snow is the man]

22 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

That's a great point. He doesn't seem to like Ned much either, even though the two hardly ever interacted. 

I think ned had a hard time keeping his contempt hidden as well

[snow is the man]

19 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Well, he mentions Sansa singing for him a few times (George just really loves writing about singing, I guess). And he talks about her getting beaten too.

(On a side note, I'm only just now starting to realize how helpful A Search of Ice and Fire is! haha)

But yes, Arya normally has excellent observation skills. A lot of people disagree with me on this, but I think her and Cat are actually very similar in how they process emotions. They feel in extreme ways, and it's messes with their ability to focus on anything else.

Her three deaths are proof of that. I couldn't understand why she didn't choose people more important

[Philokles]

Until the Blackwater, then his marriage to Sansa, Sandor doesn't seem to dislike Tyrion more than any other Lord or Knight. Tyrion doesn't seem any more dismissive or acerbic to Sandor than everyone else he considers beneath him (or even equals or betters come to that).

 

2 hours ago, snow is the man said:

Her three deaths are proof of that. I couldn't understand why she didn't choose people more important

No way that Arya could know what she was dealing with, so under utilising the first is understandable, the second was admittedly a waste, but the third was brilliant! Using lateral thinking to multiply the impact of one name in the shortest amount of time. Taking Harrenhal like that could quite easily have changed the course of the war.

[snow is the man]

6 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

Until the Blackwater, then his marriage to Sansa, Sandor doesn't seem to dislike Tyrion more than any other Lord or Knight. Tyrion doesn't seem any more dismissive or acerbic to Sandor than everyone else he considers beneath him (or even equals or betters come to that).

 

No way that Arya could know what she was dealing with, so under utilising the first is understandable, the second was admittedly a waste, but the third was brilliant! Using lateral thinking to multiply the impact of one name in the shortest amount of time. Taking Harrenhal like that could quite easily have changed the course of the war.

Killing tywin would have ended the war. But I agree the third idea she had was smart. But I wasn't saying she wasn't smart just that her emotions sometimes get in the way. It happens to everyone

[desire]

Seems to be as we find out in the first Tyrion chapter in GoT 

 "A voice from nowhere," Sandor said. He peered through his helm, looking this way and that. "Spirits of the air!"

Just seems since he reflexs Joff in this all the rest seems to be the reason Tyrion never sees the hound apart from well this as we see the hound 

[Lifestream]

On 26/6/2017 at 8:13 PM, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Sees his weakness but does not comprehend why until he is in the thick of barrel and experiences the furnace for himself.

Actually it is done on purpouse 

"If he thought that would shame the Hound back to valor, he was wrong. Clegane only laughed. “You?”......

Only a handful had responded to his command, no more than twenty. They sat their horses with eyes as white as the Hound’s. He looked contemptuously at the others, the knights and sellswords who had ridden with Clegane. “They say I’m half a man,” he said. “What does that make the lot of you?” That shamed them well enough. A knight mounted, helmetless, and rode to join the others. A pair of sellswords followed. Then more. The King’s Gate shuddered again. In a few moments the size of Tyrion’s command had doubled. He had them trapped. If I fight, they must do the same, or they are less than dwarfs."

 

So done deliberately but out of need not spite and without understanding.  If Tyrion knew what Sandor had gone through to survive 3 sorties he might have had the wisdom to give him an order to return to Joff on some pretext and keep his honour.

Ya that's what I meant by "not on purpose". It's really a matter of life and death and seeing as to how the battle is going and the Hound not fighting, Tyrion is forced to step in and take the lead. Of course other soldiers, as well as the Hound, are frightened and Tyrion decides to shame them to get them to fight more, which works. But not for the Hound because he has his own reasons.

 

Tyrion doesn't do that specifically to shame the Hound out of spite though, he does it out of necessity. But pretty much Tyrion taking the lead, dooms the Hound's future. Not only is the half-man more of a man than him, everyone saw it and the Hound really has no more prospects in KL unless he wants to be shamed for staying out. So still, the Hound has enough reason to hate Tyrion when his act of bravery stripped away everything the Hound had and could have. I believe the Hound didn't initially expect Tyrion to go through with it, but he did after all. if Tyrion was just all talk, I don't think it would have turned this way.

 

I was never debating otherwise, only that Tyrion didn't act that way to spite the Hound specifically due to his personal feelings. He did because he had no other choice essentially.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

5 minutes ago, Lifestream said:

Ya that's what I meant by "not on purpose". It's really a matter of life and death and seeing as to how the battle is going and the Hound not fighting, Tyrion is forced to step in and take the lead. Of course other soldiers, as well as the Hound, are frightened and Tyrion decides to shame them to get them to fight more, which works. But not for the Hound because he has his own reasons.

Except that the Hound wasn't refusing to fight.  What he suggested was actually a very good idea that would have spared more casualties.  Move the fight inside the walls, feign giving up ground, then envelop the enemy in a pincer move.  Despite the fire, Sandor is incredibly brave because he did fight for a very long time outside the gates watching men burn to death.  The questioning of his bravery in public was completely unwarranted.  Tyrion has the battle experience of one single battle.  All his knowledge of tactics is theoretical, what he would have learned from a maester.  Sandor is an experienced veteran of many battles and his suggestion shows he does care about sparing the lives of the men he is leading.  Tyrion is acting mostly on his arrogant pride, because he doesn't even give any due consideration to the Hound's idea.  It's Tyrion's plan and Tyrion's victory that matters here.  It was a really shitty thing to be cavalier about a military man's reputation, especially out of ignorance and pride.    

[Lifestream]

1 hour ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Except that the Hound wasn't refusing to fight.  What he suggested was actually a very good idea that would have spared more casualties.  Move the fight inside the walls, feign giving up ground, then envelop the enemy in a pincer move.  Despite the fire, Sandor is incredibly brave because he did fight for a very long time outside the gates watching men burn to death.  The questioning of his bravery in public was completely unwarranted.  Tyrion has the battle experience of one single battle.  All his knowledge of tactics is theoretical, what he would have learned from a maester.  Sandor is an experienced veteran of many battles and his suggestion shows he does care about sparing the lives of the men he is leading.  Tyrion is acting mostly on his arrogant pride, because he doesn't even give any due consideration to the Hound's idea.  It's Tyrion's plan and Tyrion's victory that matters here.  It was a really shitty thing to be cavalier about a military man's reputation, especially out of ignorance and pride.    

I'd made a really detailed post in response to you, but I accidentally closed the tab

 

I'm not debating Sandor's bravery per se, I know he is a brave man and I believe him when he says he's not afraid to die in battle. But he was not willing to go back to fighting with the wildfire raging around him, that much is clear.

 

Tyrion as well is doing what he considers the best course of action to avoid defeat. i don't know if Sandor's proposed plan would have been superior and a better choice frankly because we'll never know (unless someone asks GRRM himself). It's a purely "what if" situation.

 

Now that that's out of the way, Tyrion has to deal with unwilling soldiers and the person who leads them not following his orders. it doesn't help that there's no one else around Tyrion, besides Sandor, to not offer military advise. Don't forget that even at Sandor's suggestion, NO ONE speaks up to agree with Sandor. Sandor is alone on this. Neither does Mandon Moore offer any input, all he does is exercise his duty as a Kingsguard.

I'm aware of Tyrion's condescending attitude towards the Hound, but I think in this case his priorities lie in getting people to follow what he considers to be the best course of actions for the Iron Throne, himself and the Lannisters. I don't think he was obliged to spare people of their feelings. Jon Snow doesn't either when he separates Gilly from her son. He sees the big picture and does what he thinks is best even if that means hurt feelings.

 

Of course on a personal level what Tyrion did is detestable, and I think that's how the Hound feels as well and it can be felt when he talks about Tyrion on his travels with Arya. But I don't think it could be helped considering the position Tyrion was in, it wasn't an easy one. After all he did join the fighting himself, that should be enough proof to understand how much of a choice he really had.

 

On the grand scheme of things he acted as he thought was best for himself and as an extension the soldiers. I don't think the soldiers would have survived if Stannis had won. He'd have executed them for traitors (except if Davos somehow managed to convince him otherwise). So really all they can do is fight tooth and nail for their only chance at life.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

8 minutes ago, Lifestream said:

I'm not debating Sandor's bravery per se, I know he is a brave man and I believe him when he says he's not afraid to die in battle. But he was not willing to go back to fighting with the wildfire raging around him, that much is clear.

 

Well, yeah.  They were following Tyrion's plan from the start.  He led three sorties as commanded.  They also lost 50% of their men and horses.  That should tell anyone it's time to adjust strategies.  While Tyrion may believe he is doing what is best to win, it is telling he gives absolutely no consideration to the Hound's suggestion and dismisses it based on one assumption that he is completely broken by the fire.  He isn't.  He's exhausted and very stressed out, but he isn't broken.  Not yet.  I found some great analysis for the battle by Ragnorak in the re-read section which I think sheds some light here.

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Sandor’s leadership is not born of status. I seem to recall that men break around a 5% casualty rate and casualties jump to around 25% after breaking. Even if I’m a bit off in my recollections, given the near 50% casualty rate Sandor seems to have suffered a lack of breaking is fairly remarkable. It also seems that it was not the battle, but the wildfire that is responsible for the losses.

 

“Who commands here? You’re going out.”
“No.” A shadow detached itself from the shadow of the wall, to become a tall man in dark grey armor. Sandor Clegane wrenched off his helm with both hands and let it fall to the ground. The steel was scorched and dented, the left ear of the snarling hound sheared off. A gash above one eye had sent a wash of blood down across the Hound’s old burn scars, masking half his face.

Clegane’s breath came ragged. “Bugger that. And you.”
A sellsword stepped up beside him. “We been out. Three times. Half our men are killed or hurt. Wildfire bursting all around us, horses screaming like men and men like horses—”

“Open the gates. When they rush inside, surround them and kill them.” The Hound thrust the point of his longsword into the ground and leaned upon the pommel, swaying. “I’ve lost half my men. Horse as well. I’m not taking more into that fire.”

 

Sandor led three sorties. If Clegane’s helm is scorched, he must have been near the fire. The sellsword talks of wildfire making horses scream like men and men like horses and Sandor says he’s lost his horse. It may even be that Sandor’s horse was killed by wildfire. I would suspect that the 50% casualty rate came on the last sortie when they were near the shore and were caught in the wildfire explosion. It seems unlikely that there would have been a second or third sortie if the casualties on the first or second were that heavy.

That would mean that Sandor held his men together and they didn’t break even after being caught in wildfire that killed or maimed half of them. “Half our men killed or hurt” seems to imply that Sandor rallied his men to bring the wounded back-- impressive for a man with his fear of fire. Sandor has very personal reasons for not wanting to go back into that fire, but he frames his objection as a refusal to bring his men back into that fire. While Tyrion views Sandor as personally broken here, his men hear a leader telling the Hand of the King to pound sand in their defense. He offers to fight inside but refuses to venture back into the fires that just claimed half his force.

I suppose a case could be made that the gates to the city must be inviolate given Tyrion’s belief that the battle must remain sweet from beginning to end based on the city defenders’ psychology. This is a small isolated force. They are separated from even the meager soldiers Stannis has fighting on the northern shore. The only lasting harm they can do is to the gate itself relative to future assaults. There is nothing inherently wrong with Sandor’s suggestion; it won’t matter which side of the wall they die on as long as the ram stops damaging the gate. I highly doubt such a feint would result in panicked rumors of Stannis having breached the walls, but that’s the only reasonable premise I can concoct that makes Tyrion leading a charge more preferable to opening the gate and letting Sandor slaughter them.

Sandor’s suggested alternative also helps demonstrate that he’s a leader and tactician and not just a soldier. There is no army waiting to stream in through the would-be breached gate that necessitates it remain shut at all costs. That fear still waits on the wrong side of the Blackwater. He says “when” and not “if” they rush in, indicating that he’s putting himself in the mind of his foe.

The purpose of the sorties is to prevent Stannis from gaining a foothold on the northern bank of the Blackwater. We see through Davos’s eyes the near perfect timing of the Hound led charge against the first forces seeking to establish that foothold.

 

when the defenders came pounding down the riverside, the hooves of their warhorses sending up gouts of water from the shallows. The knights fell among the archers like wolves among chickens, driving them back toward the ships and into the river before most could notch an arrow. Men-at-arms rushed to defend them with spear and axe, and in three heartbeats the scene had turned to blood-soaked chaos. Davos recognized the dog’s-head helm of the Hound. A white cloak streamed from his shoulders as he rode his horse up the plank onto the deck of Prayer, hacking down anyone who blundered within reach.

 

The archers were at the front because they could fire while sailing. The men-at-arms are the melee defense for the archers, but were out of the way both to avoid being a target and to allow the archers to attack from the water. The Hound timed his attack perfectly. He fell among the enemy not only before the men-at-arms could form a defensive line for the archers, but before the archers could even begin to aim at his assault. Davos sees him charge up the plank onto the deck of Prayer. He is intentionally hitting them on the ship in their transport disposition before they can disembark and organize.

 

Later we’ll see Jaime charge bowmen while he’s Brienne’s prisoner:

 

A few last arrows sped harmlessly past; then the bowmen broke and ran, the way unsupported bowmen always broke and ran before the charge of knights. Brienne reined up at the wall. By the time Jaime reached her, they had all melted into the wood twenty yards away. “Lost your taste for battle?”
“They were running.”
“That’s the best time to kill them.”
She sheathed her sword. “Why did you charge?”
“Bowmen are fearless so long as they can hide behind walls and shoot at you from afar, but if you come at them, they run. They know what will happen when you reach them.

 

These were supported bowmen in that they had men-at-arms on the same ship to defend them, but Sandor timed his assault to effectively make them unsupported bowmen. This also served to use the breaking bowmen to prevent the men-at-arms from ever organizing to use their spears to defend against the mounted charge.

The Stannis forces aboard Prayer were not reduced to chickens among wolves by chance. They were not undone in the matter of three heartbeats by chance either. This required timing calculated with an understanding of the battlefield and a knowledge of the speed and capabilities of the attacking force. It required an understanding of how men are arrayed in transport at sea and how they deploy upon landing as well as how much time they take to organize. The man who had that understanding and used it to turn a potential battle into a slaughter is the Hound.

And from Milady of York:

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I think there's one major factor at play here besides what Ragnorak already stated: that both men have dissimilar outlooks on fighting. The Imp, for understandable reasons, isn't a soldier, his experience in battle is limited and a poor preparation to lead the charge with a cool head. He is a strategist, one that can plan the defences and outline the battle plan, can look at the big picture and long-term effects but isn't so good during quick fight crisis-response situations. An armchair general if you will. Sandor, on the other hand, has experience and he's a seasoned soldier, the sort of commander that men will follow because he'll lead, not just shout the orders, and can decide in situ what the best tactic is according to how the fray is going and adapt to the situation quickly. A battlefront general, in other words.

I think that, and not some personal enmity, is at the root of this incident. In the middle of a battle, usually the battlefront general has the right of it over the armchair general. Ragnorak can tell you plenty of stories where the US Army commanders on the field did their best to feign ignorance of behind-the-desk strategy and do as the development of the combat demanded in order to avoid disaster; and looking at history, you'll find plenty of clashes between the British field generals and the War Secretary officials, the German commanders being put down by or talking back to the Führer because they disobeyed or disagreed, and the American admirals going their merry way in the Pacific far from the Pentagon's reach. Being in the place gives you an unique view that cannot be acquired otherwise regardless of skills as an strategist, and Sandor has been there for hours, not supervising and overlooking the whole Lannister war machinery from the walls, but actually driving that machinery, whereas Tyrion was also there but not in the middle of it and his combination of lack of experience and safe-thinking plus a pinch of panicky concern made him insist on that order. It's not like he stopped to think a moment and consider the validity of Sandor's tactic either; instead, he decided to go ahead with his own plan, which was foolish, needlessly killed Lannister men, and almost got himself killed too. Later, in the ASOS chapter where he wakes up, the Imp will recognise it wasn't one of his best notions, and his father reproached him too, which is enough to tell you that it was not just a hasty decision but a bad one.

Sandor's idea was pretty good, actually, as I said years ago when discussing his leading skills, this is a tactic known as double-envelopment or pincer movement, and can be found in the curriculum of all the greatest generals of history, all of which won their most impressive battles with different variations of this tactic, like Alexander the Great, Hannibal Barca, Julius Caesar, Erwin Rommel, Erich von Manstein, Heinz Guderian . . . It's usually better exploited in open field, but can work inside a city too, more so with small detachments of invaders, as this one was. A sortie wasn't the best reaction for this situation, and the very fact that Sandor had already gone out several times and at a high cost in lives should've told Tyrion as much.

It's not that "what if."  George is a student of military strategy and the writing reflects that.  I do give credit for Tyrion fighting along side the men, but he will figure out in hindsight this wasn't the best idea.  Let's also keep in mind Mandon Moore is going to attempt to murder Tyrion using the battle as a pretense, which probably wouldn't have happened if they stayed inside the gates close by their own men.  Ser Mandon wouldn't have had an opportunity.  A lot more men died and Tyrion nearly got killed himself.

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He remembered now. The bridge of boats, Ser Mandon Moore, a hand, a sword coming at his face. If I had not pulled back, that cut would have taken off the top of my head. Jaime had always said that Ser Mandon was the most dangerous of the Kingsguard, because his dead empty eyes gave no hint to his intentions. I should never have trusted any of them. He'd known that Ser Meryn and Ser Boros were his sister's, and Ser Osmund later, but he had let himself believe that the others were not wholly lost to honor. Cersei must have paid him to see that I never came back from the battle. Why else? I never did Ser Mandon any harm that I know of. Tyrion touched his face, plucking at the proud flesh with blunt thick fingers. Another gift from my sweet sister.

So Mandon Moore has a reason not to dissuade Tyrion from his plan.  Outside in the chaos and smoke he can make sure Tyrion dies and it looks like he was killed by the enemy.  Everyone else around them is a low level soldier, they aren't going to open their mouths either way.  The Hound's plan was a sound one and judging by the results of his battle experience, his advice should have been considered.  Losing 50% of your men is objective evidence that it's time to stop and think.  The Hound, despite the fire, kept his men from breaking even though they lost half their number.  That's how much the men trust the Hound's leadership.  Even if Tyrion doesn't believe the Hound, he also failed to heed even Jaime's warning.  Tyrion just had this arrogant tunnel vision that cost him and a lot of other men dearly.  Even Tyrion understands what the result of his decision amounted to:  leaving the gates gave Mandon Moore his opportunity to murder him but he was saved by the Podrick Payne miraculously.  Lots more men died in the sortie.  He suffered a near mortal wound as well as lost his position as Hand.  The Lannister's lost one of their most loyal and experienced commanders as a result of Tyrion shaming him publicly.  Tyrion criticized Joffrey for the bread riot and nearly losing the Hound.  He knows what an asset he is, but made the mistake of dismissing him at the battle.  The fire didn't break the Hound.  It was the very ill-considered decision on Tyrion's part to destroy him professionally.  This wasn't even about "hurt feelings."  This is destroying his career and for what?  Nothing good actually resulted from this decision.  Oh the Lannisters won of course, but not because of Tyrion's sortie.  Tyrion wasn't ever going to get any credit or recognition that he craved anyway.  Yeah the Hound was rightfully pissed to have his professional reputation destroyed by an "armchair general" who thinks he understands what's going on in the Hound's head.         

   

[Lifestream]

18 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Well, yeah.  They were following Tyrion's plan from the start.  He led three sorties as commanded.  They also lost 50% of their men and horses.  That should tell anyone it's time to adjust strategies.  While Tyrion may believe he is doing what is best to win, it is telling he gives absolutely no consideration to the Hound's suggestion and dismisses it based on one assumption that he is completely broken by the fire.  He isn't.  He's exhausted and very stressed out, but he isn't broken.  Not yet.  I found some great analysis for the battle by Ragnorak in the re-read section which I think sheds some light here.

And from Milady of York:

It's not that "what if."  George is a student of military strategy and the writing reflects that.  I do give credit for Tyrion fighting along side the men, but he will figure out in hindsight this wasn't the best idea.  Let's also keep in mind Mandon Moore is going to attempt to murder Tyrion using the battle as a pretense, which probably wouldn't have happened if they stayed inside the gates close by their own men.  Ser Mandon wouldn't have had an opportunity.  A lot more men died and Tyrion nearly got killed himself.

So Mandon Moore has a reason not to dissuade Tyrion from his plan.  Outside in the chaos and smoke he can make sure Tyrion dies and it looks like he was killed by the enemy.  Everyone else around them is a low level soldier, they aren't going to open their mouths either way.  The Hound's plan was a sound one and judging by the results of his battle experience, his advice should have been considered.  Losing 50% of your men is objective evidence that it's time to stop and think.  The Hound, despite the fire, kept his men from breaking even though they lost half their number.  That's how much the men trust the Hound's leadership.  Even if Tyrion doesn't believe the Hound, he also failed to heed even Jaime's warning.  Tyrion just had this arrogant tunnel vision that cost him and a lot of other men dearly.  Even Tyrion understands what the result of his decision amounted to:  leaving the gates gave Mandon Moore his opportunity to murder him but he was saved by the Podrick Payne miraculously.  Lots more men died in the sortie.  He suffered a near mortal wound as well as lost his position as Hand.  The Lannister's lost one of their most loyal and experienced commanders as a result of Tyrion shaming him publicly.  Tyrion criticized Joffrey for the bread riot and nearly losing the Hound.  He knows what an asset he is, but made the mistake of dismissing him at the battle.  The fire didn't break the Hound.  It was the very ill-considered decision on Tyrion's part to destroy him professionally.  This wasn't even about "hurt feelings."  This is destroying his career and for what?  Nothing good actually resulted from this decision.  Oh the Lannisters won of course, but not because of Tyrion's sortie.  Tyrion wasn't ever going to get any credit or recognition that he craved anyway.  Yeah the Hound was rightfully pissed to have his professional reputation destroyed by an "armchair general" who thinks he understands what's going on in the Hound's head.         

   

Thanks for the quotes, they were interesting to read and understand Sandor's proposed ideas. So I acknowledge that it would have been the preferred course of actions.

I'm also very aware of Mandon Moore's real intentions behind what he did. I was simply trying to explain why Tyrion doesn't doesn't stop to consider Sandor's plans. I'm sure that their history also contributed to Tyrion brushing off Sandor's suggestions. Unfortunately, Tyrion is the one who commands here and has more power than the Hound and no one really mistrusts his judgement. Heck even Cersei doesn't doubt that Tyrion is trying his best and has not left Sandor with any specific commands of her own. (if I recall right, but if you have more proof feel free to share), which prompts me to believe that people where relying and supporting Tyrion 100% (except Mandon naturally). I think even Joffrey does as he is told by the uncle he so despises because this is a crisis, there's no other way.

 

Honestly, I think for Tyrion all of this, initially, is a blessing in disguise. Prior to the battle, was trying to find ways to distance Sandor from Joffrey hoping he might be easier to manipulate and control. And most of the time it doesn't seem that tyrion keeps Sandor in a high regard despite his talent and skills. He acknowledges he's an obstacles to his plans of getting to Joffrey, but at the same time his long-term plans don't involve make use of Sandor as an asset (again as far as I recall). So given that I am not surprised as to why he doesn't take Sandor's suggestion into consideration. So in my eyes, Tyrion seems to view Sandor more, brawn over brains, kind of like how Gregor is. I think many people don't give Sandor credit for his reasoning ability. And unfortunately, I don't think anyone quite viewed Sandor as a human with feelings, so expecting Tyrion to consider his future sounds a bit outlandish. Let alone in a situation like this.

 

Again not saying Tyrion was out to target the Hound specifically and I don't believe his decision to ride out in the battle and shame everyone to fighting was personal, but one has to admit that Tyrion might have been biased against the Hound since he didn't seriously consider his suggestion when from an objective point of view Sandor has a lot to offer.

 

Now if Sandor was still around, Tyrion might not have been framed for Joffrey's murder.

 

A bit off topic but I find it surprising and interesting that the Hound seems to have considered killing Tyrion in the past.

Quote

"If you scream I'll kill you. Believe that." He took his hand from her mouth. Her breath was coming ragged. The Hound had a flagon of wine on her bedside table. He took a long pull. "Don't you want to ask who's winning the battle, little bird?"

 

"Who?" she said, too frightened to defy him.

 

The Hound laughed. "I only know who's lost. Me."

 

He is drunker than I've ever seen him. He was sleeping in my bed. What does he want here? "What have you lost?"

 

"All." The burnt half of his face was a mask of dried blood. "Bloody dwarf. Should have killed him. Years ago."

Do you think so as well? He sounds as if at some in the past he had the opportunity to do so but he didn't and now he regrets it.