snow is the man

Jon is not a fire wight.

41 posts in this topic

One of the theorie's I have heard lately was that jon is actually dead. First of all beric in the show has blood running through him so he isn't a wight. And jon has not mentioned or done anything to show that he is different in those ways. With the exception of his wounds when he first comes back nothing looked strange. And him being so "sullen" as brieen put it seems to be more about being betrayed and he wasn't that much different at the end of season 5 before he died. I just think it would have been mentioned by now that something was off. And him telling mel not to bring him back again seemed more like it was about him being tired of fighting then anything else. I just think that in the show this idea seems to have passed since it is to late to bring it up. Anyone else think this

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It's just some people interpreting GRRM's recent words in a certain way and then applying it to the extreme. Beric has died many times over and each time he is less complete of a living human and thus each time closer to a sort of fire 'wight', because he was resurrected by the lord of light. Jon has probably been affected by the resurrection in a physical way, but to a much lesser degree, so no, I doubt he is a type of lifeless fire wight at this point. 

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he is extremely boring and needs to die again thats all i know 

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He's always been pretty boring most of the time, but he was actually fantastic this week making Sansa shut her fat mouth and let him rule when she was trying to humiliate him in front of all his lords.

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On ‎7‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 8:54 PM, Eddard Scissorhands said:

It's just some people interpreting GRRM's recent words in a certain way and then applying it to the extreme. Beric has died many times over and each time he is less complete of a living human and thus each time closer to a sort of fire 'wight', because he was resurrected by the lord of light. Jon has probably been affected by the resurrection in a physical way, but to a much lesser degree, so no, I doubt he is a type of lifeless fire wight at this point. 

He is not "sort of"  a fire wight.  He IS a fire wight. lol  GRRM said as much.  There isn't much to interpret when GRRM says this:

"Poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing..."

That statement is pretty straight forward.  The fact that he said this about Beric is why people are saying the same about Jon.  Now, GRRM was of course talking about the books.  The show may choose not to go that far down the rabbit hole and just leave them as resurrected people that live and breathe, even though Beric on the show specifically mentions that every time he is brought back there is a little less of him gone.  So yeah, the show may not come out and call them fire wights, but the guy writing the books that said show is based off of says they are...

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But isn't that quote about the books?  

In the show, Beric is alive maybe different psychologically slightly but not bc of the magic. 

And in the books, bc Jon wargs Ghost, someone said he might be preserved in a different way. 

So I'm both cases Jon isn't necessarily a fire wight even if Beric is. 

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Posted (edited)

On 19-7-2017 at 2:25 PM, Jaehaerys Stark said:

He is not "sort of"  a fire wight.  He IS a fire wight. lol  GRRM said as much.  There isn't much to interpret when GRRM says this:

"Poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing..."

That statement is pretty straight forward.  The fact that he said this about Beric is why people are saying the same about Jon.  Now, GRRM was of course talking about the books.  The show may choose not to go that far down the rabbit hole and just leave them as resurrected people that live and breathe, even though Beric on the show specifically mentions that every time he is brought back there is a little less of him gone.  So yeah, the show may not come out and call them fire wights, but the guy writing the books that said show is based off of says they are...

You are right, in the broadest sense of definition and yes GRRM did say that about Beric. What I meant to convey is that in the case of fire wights as far as examples go, to compare it to the condition of ice wights, there seem to be different levels of the remaining sense of self (the latter also according to GRRM), apparently depending on the amount of times the person was resurrected, how long the body has been dead and decomposing before being resurrected, etc. 

Edited by Eddard Scissorhands

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8 hours ago, Raeslewolhn said:

But isn't that quote about the books?  

In the show, Beric is alive maybe different psychologically slightly but not bc of the magic. 

And in the books, bc Jon wargs Ghost, someone said he might be preserved in a different way. 

So I'm both cases Jon isn't necessarily a fire wight even if Beric is. 

Re-read my entire post friend...

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14 minutes ago, Eddard Scissorhands said:

You are right, in the broadest sense of definition and yes GRRM did say that about Beric. What I meant to convey is that in the case of fire wights as far as examples go, to compare it to the condition of ice wights, there seem to be different levels of the remaining sense of self (the latter also according to GRRM), apparently depending on the amount of times the person was resurrected, how long the body has been dead and decomposing before being resurrected, etc. 

I agree.  There are varying levels to the degree of decomposition, for lack of a better term.  As you mentioned, it can very based upon when one is brought back, how many times, etc.  Not to mention, this "fire wight' concept is very new to us now.  We don't know the intricacies of how it all works.  Obviously ice wights are zombie like and submissive to their creator from the jump, regardless of how long they were dead prior to resurrection, i.e. Hardhomme.  Fire wights are obviously a great deal more functional, even if they were dead for awhile (Lady Stoneheart as an example). But we don't know if they progressively get worse off as time goes on.  GRRM sure seemed to imply that they do.  But he's talking strictly about the book's fire wights.  I am guessing the show doesn't even go as far as to call Beric and Jon fire wights at any point...

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4 hours ago, Jaehaerys Stark said:

Re-read my entire post friend...

You definitely say it clearly. I'm agreeing with most posts here, including yours, I just made a succinct post chiming in. IMHO I don't think they'll go that far down the rabbit hole. I think, bc Beric said that, it's clear it's just a little change each time. 

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21 minutes ago, Raeslewolhn said:

You definitely say it clearly. I'm agreeing with most posts here, including yours, I just made a succinct post chiming in. IMHO I don't think they'll go that far down the rabbit hole. I think, bc Beric said that, it's clear it's just a little change each time. 

That was my thought too.  It was addressed on the show by Beric to the extent that the show was going to focus on it, which was in passing. The only time I could see it coming up is if part of the end game for the show involves Jon taking over as the new NK, which I don't see happening...

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1 hour ago, Jaehaerys Stark said:

That was my thought too.  It was addressed on the show by Beric to the extent that the show was going to focus on it, which was in passing. The only time I could see it coming up is if part of the end game for the show involves Jon taking over as the new NK, which I don't see happening...

Def. And fire wight and ice wight are different things. That wouldn't work anyway. The effects of his resurrection seem to be more about validating his specialness and/or showing how magic works, depends on what happens later.

Also, I just rewatched s3e9 where whatshisfaceWildling wargs into his raven when Jon kills him. The only missing piece to that wargs preservation thing working for Jon would be no indication in the show that he can warg into Ghost.

Either way though, there's no indication he's not REALLY him, maybe changed by the experience of it though. I agree.

Also, on a similar note, he was burned by fire in S2 or S3 at CB. He seems to have no magic....

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"Poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing..."

In my opinion GRRM Is solely talking about Beric in this passage. He is very cagey the way he said it. He did mention Jon but went on to specifically talk about Beric. I Believe Jon to be Different, if you look at him on the show at least, Jon's wounds seem to be healing but Beric's wounds have not healed properly if at all, they look hideous.

Also I think George has contradicted him self in saying that Beric's heart is not pumping but yet he ignites his blade with his own blood. How is this possible if his heart is not pumping? If the heart stops the blood eventually solidifies making that impossible.

It would make more sense if the fire wight's were living with their own free will (Because they fight for the living) but every time they die and get resurrected they loose a piece of themselves as GRRM pointed out. Lady Stoneheart is different again in the way she was brought back, not by the Red God but by Beric.

Just my opinion and look forward to seeing how this all plays out on the Show.

 

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2 hours ago, Drago said:

"Poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing..."

In my opinion GRRM Is solely talking about Beric in this passage. He is very cagey the way he said it. He did mention Jon but went on to specifically talk about Beric. I Believe Jon to be Different, if you look at him on the show at least, Jon's wounds seem to be healing but Beric's wounds have not healed properly if at all, they look hideous.

Also I think George has contradicted him self in saying that Beric's heart is not pumping but yet he ignites his blade with his own blood. How is this possible if his heart is not pumping? If the heart stops the blood eventually solidifies making that impossible.

It would make more sense if the fire wight's were living with their own free will (Because they fight for the living) but every time they die and get resurrected they loose a piece of themselves as GRRM pointed out. Lady Stoneheart is different again in the way she was brought back, not by the Red God but by Beric.

Just my opinion and look forward to seeing how this all plays out on the Show.

 

The only difference between Jon and Beric, at least as far as their appearances are concerned, is that Beric has been brought back 6 or 7 times now, and Jon just once.  If they lose a piece of themselves (whatever that means) every time they come back, Beric would look significantly more "hideous" than Jon at this point.  Brig Jon back from the dead 6 or 7 times and there's no telling what he would look like.  I imagine not the pretty crow we know and love today, right?  They were brought back the same way, so in my mind, GRRM is talking about both of them.  A fire wight is a fire wight is a fire wight...

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Posted (edited)

Maybe it was no longer the case by the time he gave up his life to bring back Catelyn, but Beric seemed to have had a working circulatory system during the duel with the Hound in ASoS, at which point he had already been resurrected several times:

Quote

Lord Beric's knees folded slowly, as if for prayer. When his mouth opened only blood came out. The Hound's sword was still in him as he toppled face forward. The dirt drank his blood. Beneath the hollow hill there was no sound but the soft crackling of flames and the whimper the Hound made when he tried to rise. Arya could only think of Mycah and all the stupid prayers she'd prayed for the Hound to die. If there were gods, why didn't Lord Beric win? She knew the Hound was guilty.

 

Edited by Einheri

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3 hours ago, Jaehaerys Stark said:

The only difference between Jon and Beric, at least as far as their appearances are concerned, is that Beric has been brought back 6 or 7 times now, and Jon just once.  If they lose a piece of themselves (whatever that means) every time they come back, Beric would look significantly more "hideous" than Jon at this point.  Brig Jon back from the dead 6 or 7 times and there's no telling what he would look like.  I imagine not the pretty crow we know and love today, right?  They were brought back the same way, so in my mind, GRRM is talking about both of them.  A fire wight is a fire wight is a fire wight...

I have argued this point about Jon being a fire wight time and time again to various people.

The point George RR Martin is making is Beric Dondarion is a wight, a wight resurrected by fire. Regardless of Beric Dondarrion's mental and physical state he is the same as Jon, Jon was resurrected by fire and is a wight also. Regardless of physical state, free will, etc they are both the same as the wights the NK resurrect in terms that they have been resurrected.

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20 hours ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

I have argued this point about Jon being a fire wight time and time again to various people.

The point George RR Martin is making is Beric Dondarion is a wight, a wight resurrected by fire. Regardless of Beric Dondarrion's mental and physical state he is the same as Jon, Jon was resurrected by fire and is a wight also. Regardless of physical state, free will, etc they are both the same as the wights the NK resurrect in terms that they have been resurrected.

Exactly.  You're picking up what I'm putting down... 

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20 hours ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

I have argued this point about Jon being a fire wight time and time again to various people.

The point George RR Martin is making is Beric Dondarion is a wight, a wight resurrected by fire. Regardless of Beric Dondarrion's mental and physical state he is the same as Jon, Jon was resurrected by fire and is a wight also. Regardless of physical state, free will, etc they are both the same as the wights the NK resurrect in terms that they have been resurrected.

The problem is that in the show beric isn t a wight. He is a ressurected person with normal body functions. And in the books jon isn t confirmed to be dead.

Grrm said that in his books beric is a fire wight. That doesn t apply yet to jon because in the show there aren t fire wights and jon isn t yet dead in the books...

And I think you are applying the word wight wrongly. To be a wight I think you must be using a dead body (as in your heart doesn t beat while you are walking around). Besides, even by you definition if after his body dies jon wargs into gohst, then someone heals his body and then he wargs back into his body he was never dead nor.ressurected. the wight thing is a phisical matter!

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Posted (edited)

14 minutes ago, divica said:

The problem is that in the show beric isn t a wight. He is a ressurected person with normal body functions. And in the books jon isn t confirmed to be dead.

Grrm said that in his books beric is a fire wight. That doesn t apply yet to jon because in the show there aren t fire wights and jon isn t yet dead in the books...

And I think you are applying the word wight wrongly. To be a wight I think you must be using a dead body (as in your heart doesn t beat while you are walking around). Besides, even by you definition if after his body dies jon wargs into gohst, then someone heals his body and then he wargs back into his body he was never dead nor.ressurected. the wight thing is a phisical matter!

But what we know is that Jon will be resurrected in the books, and by Melisandre, right?  I think we can all agree to that.  No chance such a big event happens in the show that doesn't happen in the books. That said, Beric and Jon would be fire wights.  The reason we know that is, as I posted earlier, GRRM said, in his own words: 

"Poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing..."

The main things to focus on are 1) to say Beric was set up as the foreshadowing is referring to Jon being the same as Beric in that they are  both resurrected by fire, thus becoming fire wights, and 2) he clearly states that they are not living human beings anymore.  No beating heart, no blood flowing through their veins. I think that directly contradicts your points made in your post.  @Samwell_Tarly used the term wight correctly in my mind.  GRRM leaves no room for dispute there...

Edited by Jaehaerys Stark

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2 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Stark said:

But what we know is that Jon will be resurrected in the books, and by Melisandre, right?  I think we can all agree to that.  No chance such a big event happens in the show that doesn't happen in the books. That said, Beric and Jon would be fire wights.  The reason we know that is, as I posted earlier, GRRM said, in his own words: 

"Poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing..."

The main things to focus on are 1) to say Beric was set up as the foreshadowing is referring to Jon being the same as Beric in that they are  both resurrected by fire, thus becoming fire wights, and 2) he clearly states that they are not living human beings anymore.  No beating heart, no blood flowing through their veins. I think that directly contradicts your points made in your post.  @Samwell_Tarly used the term wight correctly in my mind.  GRRM leaves no room for dispute there...

Thank you, someone who understands, 

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