Graydon Hicks

future plans?

29 posts in this topic

say dany and jon survive, kill night king, take the iron throne, start making little stark/targ babies, what then? she wants to break the wheel, that game of politics that the nobility plays, at the cost of the common folk in westeros, what would they set up instead? dany isnt going to give up her authority as monarch, but what can she do to curb the power of the great houses? and about the free folk? the unsullied? the dothraki? i doubt she's just going to send her army back to essos, and jon isnt going to banish the free folk back north of what remains of the wall. what about the familys and houses that have been destroyed over the coarse of the show? who gets to rule storm's end, sun spear, highgarden?

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The safest answer to this question is that Daenerys dies before breaking the wheel, and while the world lives in peace the cycle of feudalism continues for the foreseeable future.  The reason the writers haven't explained what "breaking the wheel" looks like is because an honest and believable vision would be too long detailed and nuanced.  And because if the wheel doesn't get broken they don't have to even try.

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well, if i were in jon and dany's position, post war, i would use the unsullied as the private army answering only to the iron throne. not an army borrowed from bannermen, like they have been doing, but directly loyal to the royals. and use the unsullied as a model to expand the idea. not saying make more eunuchs, but have children get taken in and trained from a young age. a crown legion. strong enough to handle most of the problems that crop up that would usually require calling on bannermen to lend their forces. 

maybe dorn to the dothraki? i only suggest that because the climate might more suited to the dothraki, and at the moment, i have no idea who might have a good enough claim to be given sunspear.

highgarden is a little easier, the tyrells have a lot of blood ties in the reach, the hightowers, the redwynes, the penroses. maybe give highgarden over to one of them?

try and settle the wildlings in the gift and new gift, or if any are willing to bend the knee to house stark, settle them in some of the areas around the dreadfort, or in the rills or along the stony shore.

if gendry survives, give him storms end. as the last male of the baratheon bloodline, he should inherit automatically even as a bastard.

but what about other aspects of rebuilding the realm?

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With GRRM mentinoning a "bittersweet" ending...

I think Jon and Dany will have a child, but Dany will die in childbirth.

Jon will likely die as well.

Jon & Dany's child will rule the Seven Kingdoms when he or she comes of age.  

I believe Gendry will be legitimized by the king/queen's decree in order to restore House Baratheon, and rule Storm's End.

I think Sansa will end up ruling the North. 

 

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There will be no seven kingdoms or iron throne at the end. That much is almost certain. The White Walkers will ultimately be defeated, but not before they make it all the way to the south destroying every seat of every house, including King's Landing (as we've seen in visions).

Whoever is left standing (unlikely to be both Jon and Dany as at least one of them is bound to die) will propose a new way of life that's more democratic than feudal. I don't expect that we'll get a detailed explanation of this or witness it pan out to any significant extent though.

Alternatively, the ending that i'm hoping for is one where the race of men lose Westeros in its entirety, with the bittersweet ending being the re-emergence of the Children of the Forest.

 

 

 

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pessimist. im gonna pray that at least jon, dany, and tyrion live through this all and work to leave westeros better than when they found it.

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and, with the hope that dany and jon survive to have several kids, what do you think their names should be?

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On 8/27/2017 at 7:01 AM, Graydon Hicks said:

pessimist. im gonna pray that at least jon, dany, and tyrion live through this all and work to leave westeros better than when they found it.

Pessimistic yes, but also realistic. Just because they're fan favourites doesn't mean they are safe lets not forget that.

It will probably be something like a Pyrrhic victory in the end, you can always hope though.

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alright, you can believe that if you want, that doesnt change that i stared this thread trying to get an idea of how things will turn out if jon and dany survive. can we keep to that please?

i just want to play with the idea that even if they win, and live, and we get our happily ever after, happily ever after doesnt last as long as you hope. they will be looking at at least 10 years of recovery, what with trying to rebuild an economy shattered by both the Wo5K, the lannister regime, and the frozen apocalypse, and populations savaged by those events. whole houses have been annihilated, provinces left with no ruling families. two whole armies of foreigners brought over, and no current plans on what to do with them after the war. 

this is what i stared this thread for, to discuss this hypothetical outcome, what could jon and dany do to rebuild their kingdom and dynasty.

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Posted (edited)

6 hours ago, Graydon Hicks said:

alright, you can believe that if you want, that doesnt change that i stared this thread trying to get an idea of how things will turn out if jon and dany survive. can we keep to that please?

i just want to play with the idea that even if they win, and live, and we get our happily ever after, happily ever after doesnt last as long as you hope. they will be looking at at least 10 years of recovery, what with trying to rebuild an economy shattered by both the Wo5K, the lannister regime, and the frozen apocalypse, and populations savaged by those events. whole houses have been annihilated, provinces left with no ruling families. two whole armies of foreigners brought over, and no current plans on what to do with them after the war. 

this is what i stared this thread for, to discuss this hypothetical outcome, what could jon and dany do to rebuild their kingdom and dynasty.

Alright, I'll humour you then. If they all survive (Jon, dany, Tyrion etc) they obviously have to rebuild Westeros. However a clash of cultures is inevitable, The Dothraki becoming the biggest problem here since they'll have to reform for them to live peacefully next to the Westerosi people. Their pillage and plunder mentality will not be easily curbed and it will take a long time for them to integrate into society.

I don't expect these things to happen right at the start however. First all the living people of all cultures and houses come together and form one front against their biggest mutual enemy, "Death". Bonds are formed, respect is won, and for one glorious moment all the people are "one". There's no difference between rich or poor, general or soldier since they are all fighting together for once.

After they won against death, rebuilding starts. Food, water and shelter are the most important needs, but winter has come and it will be a long one. There is not enough food for all the people, so here is where the first problems arise, infighting starts. Dany has to make sure that all the people are being taken care of. She orders the Unsullied and Tyrion to go to Mereen and gather food supplies, or she takes the Unsullied and Dothraki back to Mereen to prevent growing tensions.

Jon stays behind with Rhaegal to rule Westeros and to make sure that people are behaving themselves

Since Dany is pregnant she will give birth in Mereen because it's currently the most safe place for her to be.

And what comes next?...well, territorial squabbles, differences in opinion, jealousy, greed and all other unsavoury things will rise it's head. They all realize they can't go back to the way they used to do things, democracy will become the answer. Everyone gets a piece of the pie instead of just a crumb, peasants and the poor will have a say in the matter just as much as any noble man. and the wheel will break...hopefully. Dany realizes she can not be the top spoke on the wheel without becoming a hypocrite herself, so she shares her power with Jon, Tyrion and many other faithfully trusted among her. (Grey worm, Missandei, Jorah etc.) Besides she can be only at one place at once, right?

However things will turn out, It's like they say...Conquering is only half the work, it's the ruling afterwards that will prove to be the most challenging thing to do..

 

Edited by DireKiwi
typo

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quick thought. will winter continue with the WW gone? sure, they might have year long seasons, but a long winter? that might lead into a discussion of whether or not the WW follow the winters, or the winters follow the WW?

i also wonder at what essos is doing during all this. i can imagine that volantis, those smaller cities north of old valyria, and what remains of the slaver masters of old ghis, might have a bone to pick with dany over her breaking the slave trade. that must be what, 30% of the economy of southern essos? and she just smashed it, and left daario in charge to keep it broken. and while westeros has been dealing with the repercussions of the Wo5K, the lannister regime, and the war against the dead, essos is pretty much untouched, nor is it much touched by winters in general, at least compared to westeros. so the economic and military balance of the narrow sea is much in the favor of the free cities. i can see volantis trying to build a new alliance, maybe with the three sisters, or even with pentos, and decide to re-enact the war of the ninepenny kings. just a thought there for future conflicts. happily ever afters dont last forever. 

now, would some of the dothraki decide to return to to essos, and back to their old lives? would some be able to acclimate and be given lands, like in dorne or the reach? the unsullied? i have notice the relative weakness in the authority of the iron throne by the time of the series beginning. its inherent in the nature of the feudalism, the king/queen is forced to rely on its vassal lords to keep faith and follow the law. and if problems arise, the throne is forced to borrow the forces of its vassal in order to deal with it, which means trusting that your vassal lords are going to lend them to you and not side with who ever is rising up in dissent. when the targs had dragons, they didnt really need an army that answered to them directly in order to deal with decent, they could just drop by a dragon-back, and burn out the problem. but now, they have the unsullied, a disciplined, professional force, loyal directly to dany and house targaryen. that could form the foundation for a royal army right there.

what about raising new lords? houses tyrell, martell, frey, baratheon, and maybe even tully and arryn, depending on how the nexty season turns out, are extinct or nearly there. what about raisng new lords for sunspear, highgarden, storms end? i can see them legitimizing gendry as the new lord baratheon, but what about the others? will they be left vacant or will new vassals be raised to take them? 

and how is she and jon going to break the wheel? the rotating influence and power of the great houses? sure, most of those houses are going to be eliminated by the time the new regime begins, but how can they keep it broken? a parliment, with representation from across the seven kingdoms? laws that empower the throne, and weaken the nobles, like limiting the size of forces they can raise, so that the throne can maintain a military advantage over its vassals? stricter enforce of laws that protect the smallfolk and the king's peace? something to prevent what the mountain did in the riverlands in the first season from ever happening again?

democracy could never fully happen, not if dany wants to maintain her dynasty and its power, but there are ways of limiting the kinds of abusive levels of authority that the LPs have held for the last 300 years.

this kind of stuff 

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'By night all banners are black' is a line from the books that I think foreshadows the ending of this series.  I don't think the Others will be 100% defeated, just halted enough that humanity is able to regroup.  So the survivors will be in a Long Night 2.0 situation.  I think we will see the Night's Watch becoming like the national army of Westeros.  So no more individual armies beholden to dozens and dozens of lords.  Taking away the right of lords to raise their own armies marks the beginning of the end of feudalism imo.  A major step towards breaking the wheel.      

Dany and/or Jon are both revolutionaries at heart I think, so they would probably accept limitations on their power for the greater good of society.  Compensating the Lord's for their loss of control over armies by letting them form a council seems reasonable, and there is cannon precedent for "councils" in the books already.

We might even see a "Magna Carta" type deal where Jon/Dany swear oaths to lead Westeros within certain limits, they might even both take the Night's Watch vow (I would expect the NW vows to be rewritten a bit, allowing for marriages, family, women to join, etc.).

Jon/Dany can still be King/Queen with the throne passing to their child and House Targ restored without it being a continuation of the 'wheel that Aegon built'.  With society so thoroughly broken down by the end of the story, they could make some rather drastic changes to the way things are run should they choose to.  And knowing them, they absolutely would choose to.     

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On 23.8.2017 at 8:46 AM, Graydon Hicks said:

she wants to break the wheel, that game of politics that the nobility plays, at the cost of the common folk in westeros

Does such thing ever change? Isn't it a eternal cycle of summer and winter, of house rising and falling?

Daenerys wants a lot of things but does not succeed. She is impulsive, aggressive and has a lot more wishes than capabilities. Slavery bay... no success.

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she has a good hearts, and wants to leave the world better than when she entered it, but that involves destroying a system of government and a structure of society that has been in existence for thousands of years. makes those kinds of changes is never easy or painless. she tried to beak the slavery in the bay of the old ghiscari empire, and she seems to have broken it. but that was a way of life that those people had lived since before the wars between the valyrian freehold and the empire. of course she faced heavy opposition, of course it got bloody, how could it not, but she was to trying to make life better there for those who had lived their entire lives sold like cattle at market, like she herself was by her brother to drogo. her heart is the right place, she just went about it the wrong way. tyrion was trying to mitigate that, make it more acceptable to everyone. 

she wants to the same thing for the common folk of westeros. look at what happened when tywin let the mountain loose in the riverlands while he called his banners, and never once punished gregor for killing innocents that had nothing to do with the squabbled between lannister and stark. look at how joffrey treated the peasants of KL, using them for target practice with his crossbow for the sport of it, just see them bleed and die. when the great lords argue, the smallfolk die. she wants to prevent that. and if she and jon can survive this war, thenthey will have the chance. so many of the noble houses have been eliminated, between the Wo5K, the lannister reprisals, the bolton rule in the north, and the up coming apocalypse. there will be a void, and little opposition to her reforms since most of those who would argue, and have the strength to resist those reforms, are all dead.

the wheel she refers to the rotation of power and influence among the great houses. granted, the starks have a lot less to do with the wheel and the games, even during robert's reign, than any other house, since they live so far from the center of power at KL, and their environment means they usually have other concerns than who replaced who on the small council, who got named to the KG, who got married to which house. politics is a game played by those who dont have their time taken up preparing for winters where the temperatures drop to below freezing every night. we have seen how the north is so removed from the Game, and the main regular players of politics are those houses south of the neck. but her point still stands. the houses would rather jostle for wealth, prestige, power, and influence, instead of protecting and caring for their people. she wants break the political network that has become the focus of life in the south.

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I like Daenerys as character, but she is pretty flawed. I cannot really imagine her of succeeding. She is courageous and tough, but pretty naive and not very smart. 

Loosing Drogo and her child to the witch's mistretraments was plain stupid.

Good intentions yes, good actions no.

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After all the hype about the ominous saying "Winter is coming", I am bound to expect that it will come and that it will stay for a while even with the death of the dead.:P

Every character is flawed in this series, it makes them human. Daenerys biggest weakness is her youth and maybe also the fact that she is a very desirable woman, men are all lining up for her and falling in love., this can become a problem in the future. She inspires loyalty everywhere she comes without ever having to prove herself in a fight, so she's very dependant on her dragons and the people around her. Her lack of fighting skills is also a weakness.

Jon has the same problem of youth and nativity , but has gained way more experience on the real battlefield. He also made some stupid mistakes along the way but did still very well so far.

Tyrion's biggest flaw (other than drinking and whoring) is his physics. People who first lay their eyes on him see a dwarf. He inspires ridicule and rejection to most people almost on first sight. Things are way more difficult for him to get done than Dany and Jon, he is almost the opposite of Dany that way. He is also still willing to see the good in bad people like his sister, and really doesn't like to make harsh decisions when it comes to peoples lives. (this can be a weakness but also a strength)

His desire to be loved and accepted can also be used against him, but we can all agree, that if Tyrion had normal height people would've looked much different at him.

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11 minutes ago, DireKiwi said:

Every character is flawed in this series, it makes them human.

Indeed. Yes.

11 minutes ago, DireKiwi said:

Daenerys biggest weakness is her youth and maybe also the fact that she is a very desirable woman

Well, I don't rate attractiveness as weakness. To the contrary, this is one of her strongest points and why people follow her --besides her resistance to fire and her dragons.

Daenerys is very naive. She has good intentions, but her actions are dumb, impulsive, not thought-through. And she is overly ambitious and quite arrogant about her descendance. All she really has is her name and claim for succession. And the dragons of course.

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1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

Indeed. Yes.

Well, I don't rate attractiveness as weakness. To the contrary, this is one of her strongest points and why people follow her --besides her resistance to fire and her dragons.

Daenerys is very naive. She has good intentions, but her actions are dumb, impulsive, not thought-through. And she is overly ambitious and quite arrogant about her descendance. All she really has is her name and claim for succession. And the dragons of course.

Attractiveness can be a double edged sword also, jealousy an rivalry are never far behind.

Daenerys was almost close to becoming a Mary sue, but her making mistakes also makes her somewhat more believable as a character. So yeah, she's naive and impulsive and some of her actions are dumb, but so are Jon's and Tyrion's.

I for one am glad she's showing that she is only human also, and that she had quite a rude wake up call with the death of her dragon. Finally she realizes that they are not invincible and Westeros has turned out to be a sour apple for Daenerys to bite in.

 

 

 

Edited by DireKiwi
typo

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The question is how to make something lasting? Even if Daenerys or Jon are good rulers and provide 50 years of peace, sooner or later, you will get again a shit like the Mad King or Tywin or Euron. If a huge part of Westeros dies in the Long Night, what the survivors get must be something big in exchange. I don't think democracy is an option. I believe the books have their answer with the legend of the Great Empire of the Dawn. The one broken by the first Long Night. And restored by the next one? But nothing in the show could foresee that. The first GEoD survived 10,000 years according to the legend, because it was ruled by the son of the gods, their direct emissary. Jon is the son of Ice and Fire. And he is dead. Could he die again?

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11 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The question is how to make something lasting? Even if Daenerys or Jon are good rulers and provide 50 years of peace, sooner or later, you will get again a shit like the Mad King or Tywin or Euron. If a huge part of Westeros dies in the Long Night, what the survivors get must be something big in exchange. I don't think democracy is an option. I believe the books have their answer with the legend of the Great Empire of the Dawn. The one broken by the first Long Night. And restored by the next one? But nothing in the show could foresee that. The first GEoD survived 10,000 years according to the legend, because it was ruled by the son of the gods, their direct emissary. Jon is the son of Ice and Fire. And he is dead. Could he die again?

Nothing ever lasts, bad people are being born everyday. So no system is 100% perfect not even democracy.

Corruption is like a weed that feeds itself with greed. And as long as there are greedy people, the circle will never end.

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